Interesting News Out Of Crufts

[Erny]

Is there a reason (apart from the giant workload).... why dogs competing at Crufts aren't vet checked first before they enter the ring? Surely it would make sense to have the dog DQed at the start. I would have thought, publicity wise, that this would have been better for the KC.

That would seem more sensible. There was a time when all entries were vet checked before exhibition. I suppose 28,000 would be too many to realistically check. Maybe entries in the 15 breeds could have been checked?

And perhaps vet checking them after judging makes a greater statment about the KC's committment to health?

Yeah - I mentioned this a page (or five) back. Agree with it making the task somewhat impractical and expensive if every exhibition had to be Vet checked but I definitely think it would be better done at the breed level rather than waiting to do it on a "Best of Breed". And Vet checking after judging rather than before might influence some judges to look a little more closely before they award. If the Vet did all the checking before show, most of everything would be dependant upon the Vet as to who could show, perhaps?

Edited March 10, 2012 by Erny

[Are You Serious Jo]

I'll start by saying I haven't read the thread. I will.

However, fwiw, at this point I'll give my own personal opinion just on my scant knowledge of the issue. The manner in which this was handled has not done anyone, particularly the purebred world, any favours.

What the hell is the matter with the purebred world. It seems it is being run by people who lack skill and foresight.

Yes, there ARE BIG issues in some breeds including the one I go in to battle for but there is a way of moving forward and seeing the forest as well as the trees. Another public affairs nightmare. Another negative message sent world wide about the purebred dog and the ineptitude of those who sit in positions of power and another negative mssage about the failure of the system as it currently is.

Good thing the pug passed If you are happy to accept that the dogs DQ were done correctly then logic dictates you have to also trust the same vet who found no issue with the pug :D

Edited March 10, 2012 by Reverend Jo

[PuddleDuck]

Could the KC not demand a clear vet certificate for all dogs prior to entry? If they are worried about corruption by owners going to their own vets surely they could say to the owner they must get their dog assessed by dr xyz prior to their entry being accepted?

[Dogsfevr]

[Dogsfevr]

Having been to Crufts myself & i can certainly vouch it is the most airless & stinking hot place to spend a day .The lights are so hot & you can't go outside for any relief

[Saffioraire]

Thanks for that Showdog - it really puts a different perspective on it.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Saffioraire

[Swizzlestick]

When I first saw this dogs eyes (left one really, didn't get a good look at the right eye) I thought it looked like she'd had entropian surgery.

Then I read the breed standard.

"The eyes are dark amber in color, large, soft in expression, and deep set in either a diamond shaped rim or a rim with a "V" on the bottom and a curve on the top."

[alpha bet]

Imagine all the breeders who have been working towards improving these exaggerated breed issues. They are probably down the pub raising their glasses to toast the vet who has the balls to stand up - finally to show up some of the judges that for years have allowed these problems to continue.....

The video of the bulldog is perhaps a prime example as that breeder said '6 years old she is the product of ethical breeding' - longer nose and length than normally seen etc. Now these breeders can feel a sense of hope for the future direction of their breeds.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Having been to Crufts myself & i can certainly vouch it is the most airless & stinking hot place to spend a day .The lights are so hot & you can't go outside for any relief

That wasn't my experience at all, I recall it being very pleasant.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

It's not up on the site yet, but I understand the Neo also failed.

[toshman]

Well you know when anyone tried to say anything about that they were slammed dunked on this forum - shut everyone up quick smart

Have to say that every time I saw Malachy in the videos of Westminster, and read the critiques from everyone who said things like "couldn't you see that he was a wonderful specimen of his breed" etc., etc. I kept thinking of the Hans Christian Andersen children's story "The Emperor's New Clothes" :) :)

[Janba]

It's not up on the site yet, but I understand the Neo also failed.

And the mastiff

[Janba]

When I first saw this dogs eyes (left one really, didn't get a good look at the right eye) I thought it looked like she'd had entropian surgery.

Then I read the breed standard.

"The eyes are dark amber in color, large, soft in expression, and deep set in either a diamond shaped rim or a rim with a "V" on the bottom and a curve on the top."

From the Cervood website

http://www.chervood-kennel.com/offspring/boom.html

[sandgrubber]

Well you know when anyone tried to say anything about that they were slammed dunked on this forum - shut everyone up quick smart

Have to say that every time I saw Malachy in the videos of Westminster, and read the critiques from everyone who said things like "couldn't you see that he was a wonderful specimen of his breed" etc., etc. I kept thinking of the Hans Christian Andersen children's story "The Emperor's New Clothes" :) :)

I feel a bit like the kid who said: "The Emperor is naked".

Except that instead of listening, a bunch of people attacked.

Btw, it is worth studying the UK KC's revised standards in interpreting the DQ's at Crufts. The US standard wants a flat face, the revised UK standard has backed away from brachy facial structure.

[Greytmate]

Is there a reason (apart from the giant workload).... why dogs competing at Crufts aren't vet checked first before they enter the ring? Surely it would make sense to have the dog DQed at the start. I would have thought, publicity wise, that this would have been better for the KC.

No, because all entrants are already aware of the requirement of the dog to be healthy and sound, and the risk of being disqualified if the dog is found to be unhealthy.

It is like drug testing in sport. The winners are all tested instead of every competitor, but the rules about not using drugs apply to all competitors.

All people entering dogs in shows are free to consult a vet before entering the show. If they don't do that themselves they have no grounds to question the vet if they are disqualified later.

[The Spotted Devil]

With regards to the Clumber breed standard I don't understand why you would want a dog to show 'haw' (= vet diagnosis of ectropian). Flushing and retrieving game in heavy cover - the eye needs to be protected. Can anyone enlighten me please? I admit I prefer working lines anyway but these are the ANKC descriptions of various spaniel eyes:

ESS: Medium size, almond shaped, not prominent nor sunken, well set in (not showing haw), alert, kind expression. Dark hazel. Light eyes undesirable.

Field: Wide open but almond shaped with tight lids showing no haw. Grave and gentle in expression. Dark hazel in colour.

Cocker: Full, but not prominent. Dark brown or brown, never light, but in the case of liver, liver roan, and liver and white, dark hazel to harmonise with coat; with expression of intelligence and gentleness but wide awake, bright and merry; rims tight.

Am Cocker: Eyeballs are round and full and look directly forward. The shape of the eye rims gives a slightly almond shaped appearance; the eye is not weak or goggled. The colour of the iris is dark brown and in general the darker the better.

[sandgrubber]

Btw . . . the following link gives the instruction set the veterinarians are working from at Crufts:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/12708/SH102HPvetsurgeoninfo.pdf&pli=1

I've copied the general part . . . the document goes on with breed specific criteria

Introduction for the HP Vet Books

In January 2011, the Kennel Club announced that all dogs of the fifteen high profile breeds which

win Best of Breed at Crufts 2012 and at General and Group Championship Shows after that, will

need to pass a health check by the show veterinary surgeon before their Best of Breed awards

are confirmed and before they are allowed to continue to compete in the Group at the show.

Definition of a High Profile Breed

A breed from time to time designated by the General Committee as requiring particular

monitoring by reason of visible condition(s) which may cause health or welfare concerns. The list

of designated High Profile Breeds is kept under regular review and is published from time to time

in the Kennel Gazette.

The decision to implement health checks was taken by the General Committee on the advice of

the Kennel Club’s Dog Health Group, in order to ensure that the fifteen high profile breeds, enter

the group competition free of signs of discomfort or suffering associated with exaggerated

conformation.

This move, along with the other health measures that we have put in place will help the Kennel

Club to ensure that the show ring continues to be a positive influence for change in the world of

dogs. The objective of this process is to ensure improvement in canine health is rewarded in the

show ring and to protect the reputation of the sport of dog showing.

The health check will be a veterinary visual observation and opinion at the time and for the

purpose of establishing whether the dog is fit for function in continuing on to the group

competition on the day. It is not intended in any way for the veterinary surgeon to act as a show

judge of conformation.

A Championship Show veterinary surgeon is not expected to judge the dogs for conformational

defects which are of an aesthetic nature only, and therefore poor conformation that is not causing

a clinical problem affecting health or welfare, does not form a basis for preventing a dog entering

the group competition.

Veterinary Surgeons should therefore be looking for the following clinical signs in four main

areas:

Clinical Signs:

• Externally visible eye disease

• Lameness

• Dermatological disorders

• Respiratory distress

Eye Disease

• Entropion or ectropion

• Signs of inflammation

• Chronic damage to the cornea

• Signs of visual impairment

• Signs of pain or discomfort

Lameness

• Any lameness is a disqualifying fault

• Includes ataxia

Dermatological Signs

• Inflammation, scarring or hairlessness associated with:

– Skin folds or facial wrinkles

– Tightly curled tail

– Tacking or other cosmetic surgery

– Long heavy ears associated with irritation or inflammation

Respiratory distress

 Difficulty breathing

 Lack of exercise tolerance

 Colour of mucous membrane

 Respiratory noise associated with any of the above

We anticipate that the process will be carried out as follows:

Best of Breed Selected

– Award card handed out, but once judging is completed it should be collected back

and retained by either a show official or the show secretary.

Designated official to accompany exhibitor to Show Vet

Exhibit passes check

– Show Official gives Exhibitor the signed award card, and a copy of the completed

vet form and permitted to enter the group competition

– Society to send a copy of the Vet form to the Kennel Club with its show returns

Exhibit fails check

– Show Official gives exhibitor a copy of the vet check form, and confirms their dog

is ineligible to enter the group competition

– Society to send the BOB award card and a copy of the Vet form to the Kennel

Club with its show returns

Affected Breeds

Each breed has specific conditions of concern and these can be grouped largely into conditions

causing:

External eye disease (current or healed), ocular pain or visual impairment.

Lameness

Dermatological disorders such as inflammation or evidence of previous pathology

Respiratory effects or noise (at rest or with light exercise).

[dog_fan]

Here is the ukkc breed standard for Clumber Spaniels eyes

Clean, dark, amber. Full light eyes highly undesirable. Acceptable to have some haw showing but without excess. Free from obvious eye problems.

The extreme could be that there was excess haw showing

Edited March 11, 2012 by dog_fan

[Jed]

Sandgrubber, it bothers me that self styled purebred dog breeders cannot appreciate the diversity of purebred breeds, so criticize a perfectly good pekingese because he does not look like a Caanan dog, nor runs about like a labrador.

There is a difference between a dog being unhealthy and you not liking it. Labradors would not be suitable in homes which suit a pekingese. This is the point I think is being missed.

The pekingese has bred true since about the 8th century. And although you think they have changed, and indeed, they have a little, they have not changed substantially.

You are welcome to your opinion, and once all dogs are the endogenous Eurodog, all the same, medium sized, long nose, prick ears, long haired and short haired, and the non shedding labradoodle, you may miss that diversity, but I think not. :laugh:

Greytmate - according to the owner, the website, another exhibitor, and someone from the UK Clumber club, the Clumber has had all the appropriate tests, and has passed them.

The Spotted Devil - I think you would need to read an extension of the standard. Or someone who has Clumbers may know. May be to do with the configuration of the head and forepiece, which is designed to protect the eyes when the dog is working in heavy scrub .. but that is a guess.

[dog_fan]

Sandgrubber, it bothers me that self styled purebred dog breeders cannot appreciate the diversity of purebred breeds, so criticize a perfectly good pekingese because he does not look like a Caanan dog, nor runs about like a labrador.

There is a difference between a dog being unhealthy and you not liking it. Labradors would not be suitable in homes which suit a pekingese. This is the point I think is being missed.

The pekingese has bred true since about the 8th century. And although you think they have changed, and indeed, they have a little, they have not changed substantially.

You are welcome to your opinion, and once all dogs are the endogenous Eurodog, all the same, medium sized, long nose, prick ears, long haired and short haired, and the non shedding labradoodle, you may miss that diversity, but I think not. :laugh:

Greytmate - according to the owner, the website, another exhibitor, and someone from the UK Clumber club, the Clumber has had all the appropriate tests, and has passed them.

The Spotted Devil - I think you would need to read an extension of the standard. Or someone who has Clumbers may know. May be to do with the configuration of the head and forepiece, which is designed to protect the eyes when the dog is working in heavy scrub .. but that is a guess.

No disrespect intended but are you a specialised person who can proclaim Pekingese have bred true and have not changed substantially?

Seems there are a lot of arm chair critics around you included