Interesting News Out Of Crufts

[Dogsfevr]

Also read this

Of interest is the fact that breeds on the “Fit For Function Breed Watch” list that include “points of concern for special attention by judges” come from right across the KC show system: the Basset and Bloodhound, Borzoi, Irish Wolfhound and Sloughi (Hound Group); Gordon Setter, Golden and Labrador Retriever, American and Clumber Spaniel (Gundogs); Bedlington, Bull, Cesky, Irish, Norwich, Staffordshire and West Highland White Terrier (Terrier Group); Bulldog, Chow Chow, French Bulldog and Shar Pei (Utility Group); Dogue De Bordeaux, Great Dane, Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Newfoundland, Siberian Husky and Saint Bernard (Working Group); Bearded, Rough and Smooth Collie, German Shepherd Dog, Old English Sheepdog, Pyrenean Mountain Dog and Shetland Sheepdog (Pastoral Group); Chinese Crested, Pekingese, Pomeranian and Pug (Toy Group).

[AmandaS]

Also pekinese photos from 1897 and 1905 respectively. For those interested in this particular breed, there's no photos from the Ming Dynasty ...

To be fair they say there was a lot of "gift giving" and exchange of dogs amongst the Nobility of the day.

The Temple Priests swapped Lhaso Apso and Shi Tzu puppies, which were interbred. And I would not be at all surprised if Japanese Chin were interbred with some lines of the Peke. The colouring and lack of coat being a clue to this possibility.

Here is a portrait of Looty, one of the first Pekingese in Europe and owned by Queen Victoria. She was stolen from the Chinese Empress's summer palace during the Opium Wars.

Japanese Chin were the descendants of Chinese Pekingese imported (or given as gifts) into Japan centuries ago. The clue is in the name "Chin" for China.

It's likely that Tibetan Spaniels are similarly descended from Chinese Pekingese mixed with some local Tibetan dogs. All these dogs are sacred in lamaistic Buddhism and were exchanged from monastery to monastery.

[AmandaS]

Also pekinese photos from 1897 and 1905 respectively. For those interested in this particular breed, there's no photos from the Ming Dynasty ...

To be fair they say there was a lot of "gift giving" and exchange of dogs amongst the Nobility of the day.

The Temple Priests swapped Lhaso Apso and Shi Tzu puppies, which were interbred. And I would not be at all surprised if Japanese Chin were interbred with some lines of the Peke. The colouring and lack of coat being a clue to this possibility.

Here is a portrait of Looty, one of the first Pekingese in Europe and owned by Queen Victoria. She was stolen from the Chinese Empress's summer palace during the Opium Wars.

Japanese Chin were the descendants of Chinese Pekingese imported (or given as gifts) into Japan centuries ago. The clue is in the name "Chin" for China.

It's likely that Tibetan Spaniels are similarly descended from Chinese Pekingese mixed with some local Tibetan dogs. All these dogs are sacred in lamaistic Buddhism and were exchanged from monastery to monastery.

By the way here is a photograph of Looty for those not sure about paintings.

[Boronia]

Also pekinese photos from 1897 and 1905 respectively. For those interested in this particular breed, there's no photos from the Ming Dynasty ...

To be fair they say there was a lot of "gift giving" and exchange of dogs amongst the Nobility of the day.

The Temple Priests swapped Lhaso Apso and Shi Tzu puppies, which were interbred. And I would not be at all surprised if Japanese Chin were interbred with some lines of the Peke. The colouring and lack of coat being a clue to this possibility.

Here is a portrait of Looty, one of the first Pekingese in Europe and owned by Queen Victoria. She was stolen from the Chinese Empress's summer palace during the Opium Wars.

Japanese Chin were the descendants of Chinese Pekingese imported (or given as gifts) into Japan centuries ago. The clue is in the name "Chin" for China.

It's likely that Tibetan Spaniels are similarly descended from Chinese Pekingese mixed with some local Tibetan dogs. All these dogs are sacred in lamaistic Buddhism and were exchanged from monastery to monastery.

By the way here is a photograph of Looty for those not sure about paintings.

Sorry this is OT, but Looty looks upset that she has been left behind when the others have all gone out for a fun time in the palace coach.

[espinay2]

Also read this

Of interest is the fact that breeds on the "Fit For Function Breed Watch" list that include "points of concern for special attention by judges" come from right across the KC show system: the Basset and Bloodhound, Borzoi, Irish Wolfhound and Sloughi (Hound Group); Gordon Setter, Golden and Labrador Retriever, American and Clumber Spaniel (Gundogs); Bedlington, Bull, Cesky, Irish, Norwich, Staffordshire and West Highland White Terrier (Terrier Group); Bulldog, Chow Chow, French Bulldog and Shar Pei (Utility Group); Dogue De Bordeaux, Great Dane, Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Newfoundland, Siberian Husky and Saint Bernard (Working Group); Bearded, Rough and Smooth Collie, German Shepherd Dog, Old English Sheepdog, Pyrenean Mountain Dog and Shetland Sheepdog (Pastoral Group); Chinese Crested, Pekingese, Pomeranian and Pug (Toy Group).

Presuming this is from this article?: http://www.bestinshowdaily.com/blog/2012/03/crufts-2012-day-three-controversy-continues-through-working-and-pastoral-day/

The full Breed Watch list is here: http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/watch/Default.aspx

[TessnSean]

It has taken 22 pages to finally point out that the Bulldog was part of a test run for these new rules and passed with flying colours. Mellowood have been working extensively with the KC to ensure that at the very least, their dogs meet the amended standards. If I was them, I would be feeling sold out. They have worked with the KC, had their dog passed in the trial run less than 3 months ago and have the required certificates, so of all the dogs shown, they should have felt 100% confident she would pass. Competitors were assured that the vets would examine the dogs as a judge would and not use any additional equipment such as a torch or scope to exam eyes. This was not correct.

Several of the DQ certificates have appeared on the net and the ones I have seen, have been signed by W.M.Femal. Google him. He is listed as a feline specialist. I am sure he is a very good vet, but to keep faith with the exhibitors, the very least the KC could have done was to engage a canine specialist.

I don't show any of the listed breeds and a couple, I wouldn't show if you paid me so have no vested interest in saying I think that many DQ were badly done by. I am all for improved breeding practices but what incentive is there if you do all that is asked to improve and you get kicked in the teeth at the biggest show in the world.

Of course exhibitors knew what was being examined. Why else do you think they had current and comprehensive health certificates? They went to Crufts, confident they were all meeting the new criteria and that their dogs would pass. Only a moron would take a dog suffering exactly what they knew would disqualify them.

The ripple effect in the UK is huge. Judges are withdrawing from assignments for these breeds and judges are refusing to replace them. Exhibitors are saying they are finished with showing and breeding and some with wonderful bloodlines.

I am surprised that the main groundswell is almost serves them right. Do not forget our own ANKC is aligned with the UK KC. We may just find that the same rules flow on to us. Food for thought.

[alpha bet]

There has been a great deal of cruel behaviour in the name of fashion - and not just restricted to the dog world.

Carriage horses where thought more fashionable to have a high head carriage so they had their heads pulled back even tho this creates difficulty pulling the cart uphill.

fashionable to have tiny waists ...... english girls subjected to pain and discomfort and squeezed into tiny corsets

fashionable to have small feet........ chinese bound the feet of young girls

Through history trends have changed but sometimes the establishment has to be dragging kicking and screaming into making change..... as Breeders / Exhibitors we must accept that there are many breeds that need to adjust direction and as in the video interviews from Crufts - one of the breeders of the bulldogs mentioned that there were many 'ethical breeders' who welcome the new attention to the health issues.

Judges perhaps are one group who need to be dragging kicking and screaming into the future

[TessnSean]

What people are not 'getting' is that a number of those DQ were open to change and were encouraging it. They were tested, patted on the back and given a thumbs up. They were told that they would be examined. They were given the criteria. They were given the format.

What happened is the criteria changed. Any eye imperfection was used, not chronic as the entry contract said. Judges of that breed were not present at the examination as they were told they would be. Instruments were used to examine eyes when exhibitors were told that the vet would visually examine the dogs, the same way the judges had. There would be no instruments and that was not true. Exhibitors were told that the vets would be appointed by the KC as specialists. One was a feline specialist and another was an equine specialist.

I totally agree that bad breeders should be exposed. I don't think breeders doing the right thing should be hung out to dry.

What has come out of this is that over 1000 UK exhibitors have attended a meeting overnight and that meeting votes to form a new organisation called 'Canine Alliance' with the strap line, 'Responsible for Pedigree Dogs'

I can't see Australian exhibitors banding together for improvement the same way.

[Sheridan]

It has taken 22 pages to finally point out that the Bulldog was part of a test run for these new rules and passed with flying colours. Mellowood have been working extensively with the KC to ensure that at the very least, their dogs meet the amended standards. If I was them, I would be feeling sold out. They have worked with the KC, had their dog passed in the trial run less than 3 months ago and have the required certificates, so of all the dogs shown, they should have felt 100% confident she would pass. Competitors were assured that the vets would examine the dogs as a judge would and not use any additional equipment such as a torch or scope to exam eyes. This was not correct.

Several of the DQ certificates have appeared on the net and the ones I have seen, have been signed by W.M.Femal. Google him. He is listed as a feline specialist. I am sure he is a very good vet, but to keep faith with the exhibitors, the very least the KC could have done was to engage a canine specialist.

I don't show any of the listed breeds and a couple, I wouldn't show if you paid me so have no vested interest in saying I think that many DQ were badly done by. I am all for improved breeding practices but what incentive is there if you do all that is asked to improve and you get kicked in the teeth at the biggest show in the world.

Of course exhibitors knew what was being examined. Why else do you think they had current and comprehensive health certificates? They went to Crufts, confident they were all meeting the new criteria and that their dogs would pass. Only a moron would take a dog suffering exactly what they knew would disqualify them.

The ripple effect in the UK is huge. Judges are withdrawing from assignments for these breeds and judges are refusing to replace them. Exhibitors are saying they are finished with showing and breeding and some with wonderful bloodlines.

I am surprised that the main groundswell is almost serves them right. Do not forget our own ANKC is aligned with the UK KC. We may just find that the same rules flow on to us. Food for thought.

Is your tale of woe anedotal or do you have a link we can refer to for the claim that the ripple effect is huge?

For honestly, if people can't look at a dog and say, that dog is not fit for function because its eyes are sagging around its chin, then perhaps withdrawing from showing and breeding is the best thing for the UK fancy.

What people are not 'getting' is that a number of those DQ were open to change and were encouraging it. They were tested, patted on the back and given a thumbs up. They were told that they would be examined. They were given the criteria. They were given the format.

What happened is the criteria changed. Any eye imperfection was used, not chronic as the entry contract said. Judges of that breed were not present at the examination as they were told they would be. Instruments were used to examine eyes when exhibitors were told that the vet would visually examine the dogs, the same way the judges had. There would be no instruments and that was not true. Exhibitors were told that the vets would be appointed by the KC as specialists. One was a feline specialist and another was an equine specialist.

I totally agree that bad breeders should be exposed. I don't think breeders doing the right thing should be hung out to dry.

What has come out of this is that over 1000 UK exhibitors have attended a meeting overnight and that meeting votes to form a new organisation called 'Canine Alliance' with the strap line, 'Responsible for Pedigree Dogs'

I can't see Australian exhibitors banding together for improvement the same way.

Are these the people who will continue to breed dogs that are not fit for function?

Edited March 15, 2012 by Sheridan

[BJean]

For honestly, if people can't look at a dog and say, that dog is not fit for function because its eyes are sagging around its chin, then perhaps withdrawing from showing and breeding is the best thing for the UK fancy.

If only it was as simple as looking at a DQ'd dog and agreeing it is not fit for function.

Do your visual cues of the DQ'd Bulldog and Clumber indicate they are not fit for function?

[Sheridan]

For honestly, if people can't look at a dog and say, that dog is not fit for function because its eyes are sagging around its chin, then perhaps withdrawing from showing and breeding is the best thing for the UK fancy.

If only it was as simple as looking at a DQ'd dog and agreeing it is not fit for function.

Do your visual cues of the DQ'd Bulldog and Clumber indicate they are not fit for function?

I don't know the breeds but I assumed that the judges did.

[Salukifan]

The ripple effect in the UK is huge. Judges are withdrawing from assignments for these breeds and judges are refusing to replace them. Exhibitors are saying they are finished with showing and breeding and some with wonderful bloodlines.

I am surprised that the main groundswell is almost serves them right. Do not forget our own ANKC is aligned with the UK KC. We may just find that the same rules flow on to us. Food for thought.

I heard all the same sentiments when tail docking was banned here. People are still out there.

The test will be the size of the entry at Crufts next year. I simply cannot see a lot of dyed in the wool exhibitors retiring, even though they talk about it now.

They need to agitate to iron out the process, not throw the baby out with the bathwater. But frankly, quite a few show folk can't see past their noses when it comes to the future of their breed.

[Crisovar]

May I ask which of the dogs vetted out had its eyes sagging around its chin?

[BJean]

For honestly, if people can't look at a dog and say, that dog is not fit for function because its eyes are sagging around its chin, then perhaps withdrawing from showing and breeding is the best thing for the UK fancy.

If only it was as simple as looking at a DQ'd dog and agreeing it is not fit for function.

Do your visual cues of the DQ'd Bulldog and Clumber indicate they are not fit for function?

I don't know the breeds but I assumed that the judges did.

Yes so you assume the judges knew the breeds - the judges thought the bulldog looked fit for function.

A vet disagreed and then DQ'd the bulldog.

You suggest it is so obvious when a dog is not fit for function, that if people can't look at a dog and identify that a dog is not fit, "then perhaps withdrawing from showing and breeding is the best thing for the UK fancy."

When you look at the DQ bulldog, do you see a dog that is not fit for function?

Edited March 15, 2012 by lilli

[Sheridan]

For honestly, if people can't look at a dog and say, that dog is not fit for function because its eyes are sagging around its chin, then perhaps withdrawing from showing and breeding is the best thing for the UK fancy.

If only it was as simple as looking at a DQ'd dog and agreeing it is not fit for function.

Do your visual cues of the DQ'd Bulldog and Clumber indicate they are not fit for function?

I don't know the breeds but I assumed that the judges did.

Yes so you assume the judges knew the breeds - the judges thought the bulldog looked fit for function.

A vet disagreed and then DQ'd the bulldog.

You suggest it is so obvious when a dog is not fit for function, that if people can't look at a dog and identify that a dog is not fit, "then perhaps withdrawing from showing and breeding is the best thing for the UK fancy."

When you look at the DQ bulldog, do you see a dog that is not fit for function?

Lilli, I'm not going to get into a semantic argument with you. I've done it before and all that happens is that I've wasted a shitload of time that I won't get back. I really don't care what you think, say or do, so give it up.

[Salukifan]

Yes so you assume the judges knew the breeds - the judges thought the bulldog looked fit for function.

Actually I think "function" has little to do with it. The judges (trained by successful bulldog breeders/exhibitors) put up the dog that best fit the standard (set by breeders/exhibitors).

Its a cycle.. your dogs go up... you get to train and evaluate the next generation of judges... who put those dogs up...

[BJean]

Yes so you assume the judges knew the breeds - the judges thought the bulldog looked fit for function.

Actually I think "function" has little to do with it. The judges (trained by successful bulldog breeders/exhibitors) put up the dog that best fit the standard (set by breeders/exhibitors).

Possibly.

Sheridan applied cause and effect using the words "fit for function", so to ask a question of the same, I utilised the words also.

[BJean]

For honestly, if people can't look at a dog and say, that dog is not fit for function because its eyes are sagging around its chin, then perhaps withdrawing from showing and breeding is the best thing for the UK fancy.

If only it was as simple as looking at a DQ'd dog and agreeing it is not fit for function.

Do your visual cues of the DQ'd Bulldog and Clumber indicate they are not fit for function?

I don't know the breeds but I assumed that the judges did.

Yes so you assume the judges knew the breeds - the judges thought the bulldog looked fit for function.

A vet disagreed and then DQ'd the bulldog.

You suggest it is so obvious when a dog is not fit for function, that if people can't look at a dog and identify that a dog is not fit, "then perhaps withdrawing from showing and breeding is the best thing for the UK fancy."

When you look at the DQ bulldog, do you see a dog that is not fit for function?

Lilli, I'm not going to get into a semantic argument with you. I've done it before and all that happens is that I've wasted a shitload of time that I won't get back. I really don't care what you think, say or do, so give it up.

:laugh: I love you Sheridan

[TessnSean]

Is your tale of woe anedotal or do you have a link we can refer to for the claim that the ripple effect is huge?

Tale of woe? Really? Do you only reserve belittlement and sarcasm for people you don't agree with or is that you don't accurately understand the meaning of the word woe? But then you are prone to exaggeration. I have never seen a dog with its' eyes sagging around its' chin even in a cartoon, let alone Crufts.

Either way, look up Exhibitors Choice on FB. There are over 5000 members and climbing.

Are these the people who will continue to breed dogs that are not fit for function?

What function. Why don't you email them and ask them?

As far as the comment from Telida. Breeders did stop over tail docking, but this is different. I wrote more but have deleted it all. Enjoy your lynch party folks .

[Salukifan]

As far as the comment from Telida. Breeders did stop over tail docking, but this is different. I wrote more but have deleted it all. Enjoy your lynch party folks .

Who's lynching whom?

All I'm saying is the sky will not fall.