Interesting News Out Of Crufts

[Alyosha]

The other point I have noticed is that people on this forum are saying haws = entropian. .

Jed the issue here was ectropian not entropian. But I think people have missed a point that haws don't mean ectropian. Ectropian exposes the inner surfaces of the lower eyelid, not the haw, or nictating membrane. I cannot reconcile how anyone can say exposed mucous membranes is a good thing for a dog bred to hunt through thick low cover like a Clumber, it would surely mean that tissue would be seriously exposed to every stick and leaf.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that Crufts, seeing as they would be well aware of the high profile nature of this new process, have hired a suitable and qualified vet. I think we also need to pause for a moment and realise that this vet is also aware of the high profile nature of their work, and the high degree of scrutiny that will be placed upon their decisions from many quarters.

Do folks here really think that this vet is not going to be completely and acutely aware of attention to detail? Would they be making these decisions if they absolutely couldn't justify them 100%??

Really, the exhibitors enter the show under the conditions imposed by the organisers. Everyone does this whenever they enter any competition.

Sandgrubber, you need to get over your rants about Pekes. You have only proven that you can selectively produce pictures or text that you think proves your point, but have also shown little understanding of the beed in general and a tendency to ignore all historic reference, including photos, that doesn't support your view. You're not proving a point to anyone but yourself.

[Sheridan]

Some reference has been made to paintings, drawings and sculptures "of Old" in regard to the changes in certain breeds.

I really don't think "Artwork" can be used as an accurate historical record of any animal. It is very much left up to the interpretation of the artist and the style and fashions of the time.

You only have to look at the poorly conformed 'pinhead' Thoroughbreds in some of the old painting to know no horse looked liked that. Some were drawn extremely round and others with what looks like stretched bodies.

While I certainly agree that breeds have changed I don't think we have much to compare prior to the invention of photography.

The painting 'The Aran Fisherman's Drowned Child' is considered the first depiction of a wheaten terrier. Doesn't look like even the pictures of the wheatens from the early days of their first recognition.

Paintings are not reliable.

[becks]

I don't think so Megan, although if conditions are humid and hot, it could have created a situation ripe for conjunctivitis perhaps? Others will know more on this than I though.

The NEC where Crufts is held is not hot and stuffy, they have good air con throughout the halls where the breed rings are, some areas a little warmer, some cooler, but still not so hot a person can still walk around in a jumper.

Even the BIS ring isn't warm, even under the lights - I have shown in that ring twice in breeders stakes finals which are just before they did the groups. The arena is also where they hold a lot of concerts, so they are used to that hall being well filled by lots of people and lighting.

To answer a question from early in the thread (I haven't read it all so sorry if already answered) the RBOB can't compete instead of the disqualified BOB because 1. it would have been classed as a beaten dog! 2. they don't award RBOB just BD and BB and BP.

The health checks for the 15 breeds which started at Crufts are to be done at every all breed and group champ show. Crufts was also the first show where exhibitors had to provide a tag for their crates to clearly show who owns the dog, so they can be contacted should the dog be in distress - this is for all shows from now on.

The vets were selected from volunteers by the head of the BVA and the head of the KC - who just happens to be a vet and active exhibitor of border terriers.

[~Anne~]

Well the reality is - its not going to matter - not one little bit what a dog looked like a hundred years ago. Its a nonsense argument which takes the focus off the real issues.

This is now and lots of things have changed - how it got to this isn't counted - all that matters is that dogs don't suffer because of the way they are bred to look.

Having some war about what they were back then doesn't excuse the fact that some breeds suffer less quality of life because they are bred the way they are TODAY.

So rather than excusing such cruelty if it is occurring it needs to be addressed and whether or not they have always looked like this means nothing.

IT would appear that some dogs do have conformation traits which cause them to have health issues and its difficult to deny it when the KC is the one doing the talking about

their own members and their own members dogs.

So if any one really wants to see any good come from this debacle best we talk about now not then - because in the big scheme of things no one cares if the dog in front of them is suffering today.

Yes, that's true.

It's interesting to see the historical pics though. If anyone has a spare $500 I've found an antique dealer with an original print of the book in very good condition.

[Blackdogs]

Is the black spaniel known by another name?

I wondered that as well, but I don't think so as all the other Spaniel breeds are represented.

[Janba]

It's interesting to see the historical pics though. If anyone has a spare $500 I've found an antique dealer with an original print of the book in very good condition.

I found this site that shows historical pictures of breeds from around 1900. Not all are represented but many are. If you look down the right hand side he has sub albums for some breeds.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Pietoro/Dog%20Breed%20Historical%20Pictures/?start=all

[Aidan3]

Six breeds have now failed the vet check.

[Sheridan]

I found this site that shows historical pictures of breeds from around 1900. Not all are represented but many are. If you look down the right hand side he has sub albums for some breeds.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Pietoro/Dog%20Breed%20Historical%20Pictures/?start=all

Look how little the irish water spaniel has changed.

[Aidan3]

There is also a report of a DDB collapsing while leaving the ring, then later being put down. I would just like to stress that the cause of the collapse appears to have nothing to do with either overheating, or any health problems prevalent within the breed (laryngeal paralysis). Just extraordinarily bad luck, very sad for the owners.

[Sheridan]

Also pekinese photos from 1897 and 1905 respectively. For those interested in this particular breed, there's no photos from the Ming Dynasty ...

Edited March 12, 2012 by Sheridan

[becks]

The black spaniel is the Field spaniel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_Spaniel

[Janba]

There is also a report of a DDB collapsing while leaving the ring, then later being put down. I would just like to stress that the cause of the collapse appears to have nothing to do with either overheating, or any health problems prevalent within the breed (laryngeal paralysis). Just extraordinarily bad luck, very sad for the owners.

The dogue died of idiopathic larangeal paralysis as it was leaving (I heard the building not the ring). This condition can be congenital and can be caused by other things. I will try to find the link again.

[Aidan3]

There is also a report of a DDB collapsing while leaving the ring, then later being put down. I would just like to stress that the cause of the collapse appears to have nothing to do with either overheating, or any health problems prevalent within the breed (laryngeal paralysis). Just extraordinarily bad luck, very sad for the owners.

The dogue died of idiopathic larangeal paralysis as it was leaving (I heard the building not the ring). This condition can be congenital and can be caused by other things. I will try to find the link again.

I suppose my point was that this was just bad luck, not really due to breeding for exaggerated features (as far as we know) and not a widespread problem within the breed. Although it's not a breed without health problems, that's for sure.

[Blackdogs]

The black spaniel is the Field spaniel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_Spaniel

I must have misread. I was under the impression that the 'Black Spaniel' was an attempted break away from the Field Spaniel not a variation of colour within the breed. I wasn't aware that the Field Spaniel still came in black. The more you know.

[Swizzlestick]

When I first saw this dogs eyes (left one really, didn't get a good look at the right eye) I thought it looked like she'd had entropian surgery.

Then I read the breed standard.

"The eyes are dark amber in color, large, soft in expression, and deep set in either a diamond shaped rim or a rim with a "V" on the bottom and a curve on the top."

From the Cervood website

http://www.chervood-kennel.com/offspring/boom.html

Sorry...your point being?

[Janba]

When I first saw this dogs eyes (left one really, didn't get a good look at the right eye) I thought it looked like she'd had entropian surgery.

Then I read the breed standard.

"The eyes are dark amber in color, large, soft in expression, and deep set in either a diamond shaped rim or a rim with a "V" on the bottom and a curve on the top."

From the Cervood website

http://www.chervood-kennel.com/offspring/boom.html

Sorry...your point being?

It shows the dogs right eye.

[Jed]

The pekingese has bred true since about the 8th century. And although you think they have changed, and indeed, they have a little, they have not changed substantially.

Poppycock. Please provide any evidence that the 'Pekinese' is historically consistent. Consider Ming Dynasty sculptures (one inserted below). I wouldn't say that dog looks like Palacegarden Malachy or Palacegarden Bianca. The Chinese were not 'enlightened' dog breeders. They didn't keep pedigrees, and historically, employed cross breeding and in some eras, physical manipulation (at the end of the Chinese Empire, message, bashing puppies faces, and a way of feeding puppies from the inside of a stretched pig skin in a way that forced them to press their soft face bones against the surface for hours each day) to try and achieve the conformation that was in style in the court of the time. The same court routinely practiced foot binding on women. You cannot expect the looks of court dogs to come true when they were brought to the west because their facial structure was not genetic.

The Lion Dog 'breed' was originally supposed to resemble Buddha's Lion. Small hitch, the people involved had never seen a lion. Unfortunately, they didn't have cameras at the time, so we can't develop a good visual history for the Lion Dog. The Dowager 'Empress' -- who is routinely quoted in descriptions of Palace Pekes, was a backwards, power-hungry individual who ended up as Empress only because she (as wife #3, not of royal blood) bore the Emperor a son. According to Coren, her legitimacy was questionable, and she used the Lion Dogs as a means of raising her association with Buddha . . . and hence, power. Quoting her is about like quoting Hitler to define the standard for the GSD.

The western breed . . . which the Chinese would not have called the Pekinese (Peking is now called Bei Jing, and it was not always the Imperial seat of power) is a breed created in the late 19th/ early 20th century by people who came into possession of dogs taken from the crumbling remains of the Chinese Empire. Some Peke breeders believe there was cross breeding with other Asiatic breeds after the Peke came to the west (see the Happa Dog article I posted earlier). Historical photos show of the breed in the west show progressively denser coats and shorter muzzles.

For a good description from a professional historian see See Ch 16 of Coren, Stanley (2002) The Pawprints of History, The Free Press.

Note also the Australian standard for the Peke, copied from the UK KC revised standard of 2008. (The US standard has not incorporated the revisions, which were introduced to avoid extreme and unhealthy conformation).

Head fairly large, proportionately wider than deep. Skull moderately broad, wide and flat between ears, not domed, wide between eyes. Nose not too short, broad, nostrils large and open. A slight wrinkle, preferably broken, may extend from the cheeks to the bridge of the nose in a wide inverted V. This must never adversely affect or obscure eyes or nose. Pinched nostrils and heavy over-nose wrinkles are unacceptable and should be heavily penalised. Muzzle must be evident, but may be relatively short and wide. Firm underjaw. Lips not obscuring a well defined chin. Defined stop. Black pigment essential on nose, lips and eye rims.

'not too short' is subject to interpretation . . . but there's no question that it was added to the standard to encourage breeders to breed away from flat faced, brachycephalic dogs. The equivalent move has not been made in the US. In my book, that's a shame.

p.s. I don't mind the heat and am not avoiding the kitchen. But sometimes (eg, when it's time to mow, fertilize, thin, prune, or harvest the vineyard, or when I decide to travel) DOL is not my highest priority.

p.p.s. I am not highly qualified to speak on Chinese dog breeding practices over the last 1000+ yrs, but I'll bet my qualifications outrank most of the people who have attacked me. My mother's side of the family was involved in the China trade and knew the people who imported the early 'Pekinese'. My father was born in China in 1918. My paternal grandparents left China in 1950. I majored in Asian studies in a leading US university and at one point spoke passable 'Mandarin' and knew 5000+ characters. I've taken several university level courses in Chinese history.

p.p.p.s. my first post on Malachy's victory began with a statement saying that I'm not big on coated breeds. I am also prejudiced against what I call 'barbie dogs'. No secret, I don't view the show ring as a good way to judge a dog's value and I detest breeding for charismatic image. I'd rather see health and temperament (including working ability if the breed still has 'work') than bench appeal used as a basis for what dog to put over what bitch.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO ATTACK ME, PLEASE BE AS OPEN ABOUT YOUR VALUES AS I HAVE BEEN. As for being accused of being a broken record . . . yup, that's what happens when you take a consistent position. When attacked, you're either a broken record, or you flip-flop. If you check my full record of postings, you'll find I am well above average for providing documentation for statements I make and making it clear when I am venturing opinions as opposed to presenting what appear to be facts. AND I STILL HAVEN'T GOTTEN ANY EXPLANATION FOR WHY I HAVE BEEN DQ'D FROM THE BREEDERS FORUM.

sandgrubber, I couldn't be bothered reading all that. Your problem is that you have absolutely no understanding of a standard, it's purpose or how it works in a basic way. If you do have any understanding, you have always failed to show it here.

I have no idea how anyone can breed dogs without understanding the standard. If you understand your own standard, presumably you have the capacity to understand other standards, so the only reason you are continuing your disagreeableness is because you want to.

I don't own pekingese, never have. It annoys me that you complain about them, without knowing anything about them as part of some sort of purebred bash you are on.

I have a basic understanding of the breed, and I do understand the standard. I couldn't be arsed trolling the internet for photos of pekingeses to drag out for you. Added to which, there no photos of pekingese because pekingese were invented before cameras. There are paintings and drawings, whether they are stylised or not, I have no idea.

You fail, on every level, to understand what I am saying so there is no point in continuing any discussion. Go and talk to a pekingese breeder if you care so much.

If you think they should resemble that statue, you go for it.

This is supposed to be a purebred forum, I am over people who have no understanding rubbishing purebred dogs. No one is making you buy one, why not leave alone those who understand and appreciate the uniqueness of purebreds. Apparently if animal rights says it, it is so.

That's cool, but if you want to post stuff like that, bring your proof. Vet's reports, how many unhealthy dogs, why they are unhealthy, when they changed to become unhealthy.

And I have no effen idea why you were banned from the breeders' forum, nor do I care. I didn't know you were banned until you mentioned it. I suggest you ask Troy, I am not a moderator, and it has nothing to do with me. I didn't even bother to report you.

And you might just consider that your consistent attitude towards purebred dogs might has encouraged some other purebred owner or breeder to report you. I am not the only purebred owner who comes here. I hardly ever come here.

I am not interested in continuing any dialogue with you about the pekingese or anything else because I don't think you have the capacity to understand it. Additionally, you display a consistently nasty attitude which I couldn't be bothered with.

And I don't think it matters whether breeds have changed over the years or not - as long as they are not less healthy. I don't think pekingese have - they have more coat which could be due to better product and more care taken with coat.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Jed

[Jed]

Well the reality is - its not going to matter - not one little bit what a dog looked like a hundred years ago. Its a nonsense argument which takes the focus off the real issues.

This is now and lots of things have changed - how it got to this isn't counted - all that matters is that dogs don't suffer because of the way they are bred to look.

Having some war about what they were back then doesn't excuse the fact that some breeds suffer less quality of life because they are bred the way they are TODAY.

So rather than excusing such cruelty if it is occurring it needs to be addressed and whether or not they have always looked like this means nothing.

IT would appear that some dogs do have conformation traits which cause them to have health issues and its difficult to deny it when the KC is the one doing the talking about

their own members and their own members dogs.

So if any one really wants to see any good come from this debacle best we talk about now not then - because in the big scheme of things no one cares if the dog in front of them is suffering today.

That is a bit ambiguous, can you clarify please? I think plenty care.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I don't think so Megan, although if conditions are humid and hot, it could have created a situation ripe for conjunctivitis perhaps? Others will know more on this than I though.

The NEC where Crufts is held is not hot and stuffy, they have good air con throughout the halls where the breed rings are, some areas a little warmer, some cooler, but still not so hot a person can still walk around in a jumper.

Even the BIS ring isn't warm, even under the lights - I have shown in that ring twice in breeders stakes finals which are just before they did the groups. The arena is also where they hold a lot of concerts, so they are used to that hall being well filled by lots of people and lighting.

Thank you, I had mentioned upthread that it certainly wasn't hot or stuffy when I was there last year. Nothing near most Australian shows in summer, which many people happily trot off to.

[Jed]

How come there is a discrepancy in the UK standard for the Clumbers which permits a bit of HAW yet ANKC do not? To me it does relate to a health issue so why would any country's standard permit it? And "not excessive" is a subjective description as well. The benchmark for that would be based on what one is used to seeing.

I'm glad the ANKC doesn't permit HAW. And I'm glad to learn of the term "HAW" ..... saves me going back to check on the spelling for "entropia" .

ANKC standard does allow haw. This is the relevant sentence from the standard. I would imagine the standards would be the same.

Clean, dark amber. Full light eyes highly undesirable. Acceptable to have some haw showing, but without excess. Free from obvious eye problems.

The other point I have noticed is that people on this forum are saying haws = entropian.

Entropion is the inversion, or the rolling inward, of all or part of the margin of an eyelid, which causes the hair-bearing part of the eyelid to come into contact with and irritate the conjunctival and corneal surfaces. Entropion can be congenital or acquired. The clinical signs of entropion in dogs vary, depending upon the cause of the condition, and can range from mild to very severe.

The haws are the part around the actual eyeball. Eyelids. IN most dog breeds they are dark coloured, and white haws are a fault in some breeds, but not a terribly big one. With the Clumber, it is acceptable to have some haw showing.

And yes, white haws can do red in heat or dust, which is why they are a small fault in some breeds.

I do not know whether the dog has entropian or not, althought if it does, it is difficult to spot in photos or the video.

Not much use speculating.

I believe in they're talking about ectropian in the Clumber, rather than entropian. Ectropian is the reverse, where the lower lid sags down excessively.

Also, the haws are referring to the third eyelid, which is different to the conjunctiva. And conjunctivitis means the conjunctiva are inflamed, not just red :)

I didn't see or hear any of the original stuff about the clumber. People here were discussing entropian and haws. I had no idea whether the dog was supposed to have entropian, or ectropian. In the video the haws were red, I could not see any inflammation. But the vet was on the spot. Who knows?

Presumably he saw something.