Interesting News Out Of Crufts

[Rebanne]

here's an interesting book on breed of dogs, you do need java script to be able to see it. Some very interesting pictures from years ago.

http://www.archive.org/stream/newbookofdogcomp00leigrich#page/n7/mode/2up

[Sheridan]

here's an interesting book on breed of dogs, you do need java script to be able to see it. Some very interesting pictures from years ago.

http://www.archive.org/stream/newbookofdogcomp00leigrich#page/n7/mode/2up

Hah, I like the bit on page 105 in regards to a working dog:

I once heard an Irish exhibitor say to a judge, 'You have not looked at my dog's pedigree.' The judge examined the formidable document and nodded. 'Yes, he remarked, 'and the next time you come to a show, take my advice and bring the pedigree but leave the dog at home.'

[Rebanne]

here's an interesting book on breed of dogs, you do need java script to be able to see it. Some very interesting pictures from years ago.

http://www.archive.org/stream/newbookofdogcomp00leigrich#page/n7/mode/2up

Hah, I like the bit on page 105 in regards to a working dog:

I once heard an Irish exhibitor say to a judge, 'You have not looked at my dog's pedigree.' The judge examined the formidable document and nodded. 'Yes, he remarked, 'and the next time you come to a show, take my advice and bring the pedigree but leave the dog at home.'

yes I can see myself spending quite a few hours reading it. I've looked at all the pictures, now to the reading bit.

[Jed]

How come there is a discrepancy in the UK standard for the Clumbers which permits a bit of HAW yet ANKC do not? To me it does relate to a health issue so why would any country's standard permit it? And "not excessive" is a subjective description as well. The benchmark for that would be based on what one is used to seeing.

I'm glad the ANKC doesn't permit HAW. And I'm glad to learn of the term "HAW" ..... saves me going back to check on the spelling for "entropia" .

ANKC standard does allow haw. This is the relevant sentence from the standard. I would imagine the standards would be the same.

Clean, dark amber. Full light eyes highly undesirable. Acceptable to have some haw showing, but without excess. Free from obvious eye problems.

The other point I have noticed is that people on this forum are saying haws = entropian.

Entropion is the inversion, or the rolling inward, of all or part of the margin of an eyelid, which causes the hair-bearing part of the eyelid to come into contact with and irritate the conjunctival and corneal surfaces. Entropion can be congenital or acquired. The clinical signs of entropion in dogs vary, depending upon the cause of the condition, and can range from mild to very severe.

The haws are the part around the actual eyeball. Eyelids. IN most dog breeds they are dark coloured, and white haws are a fault in some breeds, but not a terribly big one. With the Clumber, it is acceptable to have some haw showing.

And yes, white haws can do red in heat or dust, which is why they are a small fault in some breeds.

I do not know whether the dog has entropian or not, althought if it does, it is difficult to spot in photos or the video.

Not much use speculating.

[Topoftheheap]

[quote name='Telida Whippets' timestamp='1331246318' post=There is nothing about their dentition that precludes a healthy crestie from living a normal doggy life. They can eat, chew bones, clean their whelps, chew the umbilical cords, they can certainly bite if they desire. I shall have to ponder that.

But some of them have no teeth.

My guess is that perhaps there may be an alternate view that a dog with primitive detention that loses teeth at an early age may be considered a "health issue" by some outside the breed. And its only a guess but no other breed feature I can identify would promote veterinary interest

Epilation for show ring preparation was what Jemima Harrison had in her sights.

Good grief what a load of tripe

I heard it was to look for evidence of 'razor burn' and 'chemical burn' as apparently some of the breed are not truly hairless, and therefore exhibitors have been using forms of hair removal to remove hair from parts where there was to be no hair.

I don't know if its fair or not, but i suppose that if a dog has hair where it is not supposed to be, as outlined on its standard, and the person is altering the appearance of that dog for the show ring then it should be stopped, especially if it is causing harm to the dog in some way.

[Jed]

One of my dogs has one white haw. It is 25 degrees here now, and his haw is red. He has been running around a bit.

[sandgrubber]

The pekingese has bred true since about the 8th century. And although you think they have changed, and indeed, they have a little, they have not changed substantially.

Poppycock. Please provide any evidence that the 'Pekinese' is historically consistent. Consider Ming Dynasty sculptures (one inserted below). I wouldn't say that dog looks like Palacegarden Malachy or Palacegarden Bianca. The Chinese were not 'enlightened' dog breeders. They didn't keep pedigrees, and historically, employed cross breeding and in some eras, physical manipulation (at the end of the Chinese Empire, message, bashing puppies faces, and a way of feeding puppies from the inside of a stretched pig skin in a way that forced them to press their soft face bones against the surface for hours each day) to try and achieve the conformation that was in style in the court of the time. The same court routinely practiced foot binding on women. You cannot expect the looks of court dogs to come true when they were brought to the west because their facial structure was not genetic.

The Lion Dog 'breed' was originally supposed to resemble Buddha's Lion. Small hitch, the people involved had never seen a lion. Unfortunately, they didn't have cameras at the time, so we can't develop a good visual history for the Lion Dog. The Dowager 'Empress' -- who is routinely quoted in descriptions of Palace Pekes, was a backwards, power-hungry individual who ended up as Empress only because she (as wife #3, not of royal blood) bore the Emperor a son. According to Coren, her legitimacy was questionable, and she used the Lion Dogs as a means of raising her association with Buddha . . . and hence, power. Quoting her is about like quoting Hitler to define the standard for the GSD.

The western breed . . . which the Chinese would not have called the Pekinese (Peking is now called Bei Jing, and it was not always the Imperial seat of power) is a breed created in the late 19th/ early 20th century by people who came into possession of dogs taken from the crumbling remains of the Chinese Empire. Some Peke breeders believe there was cross breeding with other Asiatic breeds after the Peke came to the west (see the Happa Dog article I posted earlier). Historical photos show of the breed in the west show progressively denser coats and shorter muzzles.

For a good description from a professional historian see See Ch 16 of Coren, Stanley (2002) The Pawprints of History, The Free Press.

Note also the Australian standard for the Peke, copied from the UK KC revised standard of 2008. (The US standard has not incorporated the revisions, which were introduced to avoid extreme and unhealthy conformation).

Head fairly large, proportionately wider than deep. Skull moderately broad, wide and flat between ears, not domed, wide between eyes. Nose not too short, broad, nostrils large and open. A slight wrinkle, preferably broken, may extend from the cheeks to the bridge of the nose in a wide inverted V. This must never adversely affect or obscure eyes or nose. Pinched nostrils and heavy over-nose wrinkles are unacceptable and should be heavily penalised. Muzzle must be evident, but may be relatively short and wide. Firm underjaw. Lips not obscuring a well defined chin. Defined stop. Black pigment essential on nose, lips and eye rims.

'not too short' is subject to interpretation . . . but there's no question that it was added to the standard to encourage breeders to breed away from flat faced, brachycephalic dogs. The equivalent move has not been made in the US. In my book, that's a shame.

p.s. I don't mind the heat and am not avoiding the kitchen. But sometimes (eg, when it's time to mow, fertilize, thin, prune, or harvest the vineyard, or when I decide to travel) DOL is not my highest priority.

p.p.s. I am not highly qualified to speak on Chinese dog breeding practices over the last 1000+ yrs, but I'll bet my qualifications outrank most of the people who have attacked me. My mother's side of the family was involved in the China trade and knew the people who imported the early 'Pekinese'. My father was born in China in 1918. My paternal grandparents left China in 1950. I majored in Asian studies in a leading US university and at one point spoke passable 'Mandarin' and knew 5000+ characters. I've taken several university level courses in Chinese history.

p.p.p.s. my first post on Malachy's victory began with a statement saying that I'm not big on coated breeds. I am also prejudiced against what I call 'barbie dogs'. No secret, I don't view the show ring as a good way to judge a dog's value and I detest breeding for charismatic image. I'd rather see health and temperament (including working ability if the breed still has 'work') than bench appeal used as a basis for what dog to put over what bitch.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO ATTACK ME, PLEASE BE AS OPEN ABOUT YOUR VALUES AS I HAVE BEEN. As for being accused of being a broken record . . . yup, that's what happens when you take a consistent position. When attacked, you're either a broken record, or you flip-flop. If you check my full record of postings, you'll find I am well above average for providing documentation for statements I make and making it clear when I am venturing opinions as opposed to presenting what appear to be facts. AND I STILL HAVEN'T GOTTEN ANY EXPLANATION FOR WHY I HAVE BEEN DQ'D FROM THE BREEDERS FORUM.

Edited March 11, 2012 by sandgrubber

[sandgrubber]

Wasn't there something about the clumber also having conjunctivitis?

Yes

[Blackdogs]

here's an interesting book on breed of dogs, you do need java script to be able to see it. Some very interesting pictures from years ago.

http://www.archive.org/stream/newbookofdogcomp00leigrich#page/n7/mode/2up

Hah, I like the bit on page 105 in regards to a working dog:

I once heard an Irish exhibitor say to a judge, 'You have not looked at my dog's pedigree.' The judge examined the formidable document and nodded. 'Yes, he remarked, 'and the next time you come to a show, take my advice and bring the pedigree but leave the dog at home.'

It's interesting looking at the pictures of those dogs. Many of the dogs look far more functional. Some of them, like the British Bulldog are more functional in some ways, like reduced brachycephally, but are fairly disfunctional in others, like structure. What I do notice though with many of these dogs (though particularly apparent with the Bulldog) is the lack of uniformity. It makes me wonder whether this is where we come unstuck.

ETA: Check out the rough coated Beagles!

Edited March 11, 2012 by Blackdogs

[Sheridan]

The pekingese has bred true since about the 8th century. And although you think they have changed, and indeed, they have a little, they have not changed substantially.

Poppycock. Please provide any evidence that the 'Pekinese' is historically consistent. Consider Ming Dynasty sculptures (one inserted below). I wouldn't say that dog looks like Palacegarden Malachy or Palacegarden Bianca. The Chinese were not 'enlightened' dog breeders. They didn't keep pedigrees, and historically, employed cross breeding and in some eras, physical manipulation (at the end of the Chinese Empire, message, bashing puppies faces, and a way of feeding puppies from the inside of a stretched pig skin in a way that forced them to press their soft face bones against the surface for hours each day) to try and achieve the conformation that was in style in the court of the time. The same court routinely practiced foot binding on women. You cannot expect the looks of court dogs to come true when they were brought to the west because their facial structure was not genetic.

No need to repeat all of that.

My view on the pekinese is that none of us were alive back in the old Empress' day. There were no cameras. No videos. Drawings, paintings, these are often exaggerated, as they are for all dogs. The only things we can go on are descriptions and early photographs.

That said, your argument about how the peke looked in those early days equally argues the other way as well. If the structure was not genetic and those early photos show a nose, well, perhaps they were originally brachy after all.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Sheridan

[Blackdogs]

Interesting reading about the 'Black Spaniel' in which the author condemns breeding for exaggeration and the health problems associated with this practice. He concludes that this is the reason for its decline in popularity. Seems they were more savvy back then, as there are no Black Spaniels to be found today.

http://www.archive.org/stream/newbookofdogcomp00leigrich#page/288/mode/2up

[Sheridan]

Is the black spaniel known by another name?

[Sheridan]

BIS Lhasa Apso

RUBIS Newfoundland

[stormie]

How come there is a discrepancy in the UK standard for the Clumbers which permits a bit of HAW yet ANKC do not? To me it does relate to a health issue so why would any country's standard permit it? And "not excessive" is a subjective description as well. The benchmark for that would be based on what one is used to seeing.

I'm glad the ANKC doesn't permit HAW. And I'm glad to learn of the term "HAW" ..... saves me going back to check on the spelling for "entropia" .

ANKC standard does allow haw. This is the relevant sentence from the standard. I would imagine the standards would be the same.

Clean, dark amber. Full light eyes highly undesirable. Acceptable to have some haw showing, but without excess. Free from obvious eye problems.

The other point I have noticed is that people on this forum are saying haws = entropian.

Entropion is the inversion, or the rolling inward, of all or part of the margin of an eyelid, which causes the hair-bearing part of the eyelid to come into contact with and irritate the conjunctival and corneal surfaces. Entropion can be congenital or acquired. The clinical signs of entropion in dogs vary, depending upon the cause of the condition, and can range from mild to very severe.

The haws are the part around the actual eyeball. Eyelids. IN most dog breeds they are dark coloured, and white haws are a fault in some breeds, but not a terribly big one. With the Clumber, it is acceptable to have some haw showing.

And yes, white haws can do red in heat or dust, which is why they are a small fault in some breeds.

I do not know whether the dog has entropian or not, althought if it does, it is difficult to spot in photos or the video.

Not much use speculating.

I believe in they're talking about ectropian in the Clumber, rather than entropian. Ectropian is the reverse, where the lower lid sags down excessively.

Also, the haws are referring to the third eyelid, which is different to the conjunctiva. And conjunctivitis means the conjunctiva are inflamed, not just red :)

[Crisovar]

The pekingese has bred true since about the 8th century. And although you think they have changed, and indeed, they have a little, they have not changed substantially.

Poppycock. Please provide any evidence that the 'Pekinese' is historically consistent. Consider Ming Dynasty sculptures (one inserted below). I wouldn't say that dog looks like Palacegarden Malachy or Palacegarden Bianca. The Chinese were not 'enlightened' dog breeders. They didn't keep pedigrees, and historically, employed cross breeding and in some eras, physical manipulation (at the end of the Chinese Empire, message, bashing puppies faces, and a way of feeding puppies from the inside of a stretched pig skin in a way that forced them to press their soft face bones against the surface for hours each day) to try and achieve the conformation that was in style in the court of the time. The same court routinely practiced foot binding on women. You cannot expect the looks of court dogs to come true when they were brought to the west because their facial structure was not genetic.

The Lion Dog 'breed' was originally supposed to resemble Buddha's Lion. Small hitch, the people involved had never seen a lion. Unfortunately, they didn't have cameras at the time, so we can't develop a good visual history for the Lion Dog. The Dowager 'Empress' -- who is routinely quoted in descriptions of Palace Pekes, was a backwards, power-hungry individual who ended up as Empress only because she (as wife #3, not of royal blood) bore the Emperor a son. According to Coren, her legitimacy was questionable, and she used the Lion Dogs as a means of raising her association with Buddha . . . and hence, power. Quoting her is about like quoting Hitler to define the standard for the GSD.

The western breed . . . which the Chinese would not have called the Pekinese (Peking is now called Bei Jing, and it was not always the Imperial seat of power) is a breed created in the late 19th/ early 20th century by people who came into possession of dogs taken from the crumbling remains of the Chinese Empire. Some Peke breeders believe there was cross breeding with other Asiatic breeds after the Peke came to the west (see the Happa Dog article I posted earlier). Historical photos show of the breed in the west show progressively denser coats and shorter muzzles.

For a good description from a professional historian see See Ch 16 of Coren, Stanley (2002) The Pawprints of History, The Free Press.

Note also the Australian standard for the Peke, copied from the UK KC revised standard of 2008. (The US standard has not incorporated the revisions, which were introduced to avoid extreme and unhealthy conformation).

Head fairly large, proportionately wider than deep. Skull moderately broad, wide and flat between ears, not domed, wide between eyes. Nose not too short, broad, nostrils large and open. A slight wrinkle, preferably broken, may extend from the cheeks to the bridge of the nose in a wide inverted V. This must never adversely affect or obscure eyes or nose. Pinched nostrils and heavy over-nose wrinkles are unacceptable and should be heavily penalised. Muzzle must be evident, but may be relatively short and wide. Firm underjaw. Lips not obscuring a well defined chin. Defined stop. Black pigment essential on nose, lips and eye rims.

'not too short' is subject to interpretation . . . but there's no question that it was added to the standard to encourage breeders to breed away from flat faced, brachycephalic dogs. The equivalent move has not been made in the US. In my book, that's a shame.

p.s. I don't mind the heat and am not avoiding the kitchen. But sometimes (eg, when it's time to mow, fertilize, thin, prune, or harvest the vineyard, or when I decide to travel) DOL is not my highest priority.

p.p.s. I am not highly qualified to speak on Chinese dog breeding practices over the last 1000+ yrs, but I'll bet my qualifications outrank most of the people who have attacked me. My mother's side of the family was involved in the China trade and knew the people who imported the early 'Pekinese'. My father was born in China in 1918. My paternal grandparents left China in 1950. I majored in Asian studies in a leading US university and at one point spoke passable 'Mandarin' and knew 5000+ characters. I've taken several university level courses in Chinese history.

p.p.p.s. my first post on Malachy's victory began with a statement saying that I'm not big on coated breeds. I am also prejudiced against what I call 'barbie dogs'. No secret, I don't view the show ring as a good way to judge a dog's value and I detest breeding for charismatic image. I'd rather see health and temperament (including working ability if the breed still has 'work') than bench appeal used as a basis for what dog to put over what bitch.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO ATTACK ME, PLEASE BE AS OPEN ABOUT YOUR VALUES AS I HAVE BEEN. As for being accused of being a broken record . . . yup, that's what happens when you take a consistent position. When attacked, you're either a broken record, or you flip-flop. If you check my full record of postings, you'll find I am well above average for providing documentation for statements I make and making it clear when I am venturing opinions as opposed to presenting what appear to be facts. AND I STILL HAVEN'T GOTTEN ANY EXPLANATION FOR WHY I HAVE BEEN DQ'D FROM THE BREEDERS FORUM.

Since none of us here have any say in who can post in the Breeders forum, you will have to take that up with TROY it is his call. Maybe it was because posts written on his forum were being copied over to another forum to be kicked around by you and your mates. Ask him.

[Sheridan]

According to The Guardian, the bassett also failed the vet check.

[~Anne~]

The link to the 'New Book of Dog' is brilliant!

I loved seeing the pics of the Pugs and reading about the issues they had in that day with trends and colours.

It was interesting to see them with a short muzzle. It would be lovely to see the Pug return to this look with the aim to help some of the issues created by the extreme flatness of the pug today.

[BJean]

Wasn't there something about the clumber also having conjunctivitis?

Yes

There is an image of the Clumber Health Check with the veterinarian's name.

I'd like to know the experience / CV of the appointed vets ...

[Steve]

Well the reality is - its not going to matter - not one little bit what a dog looked like a hundred years ago. Its a nonsense argument which takes the focus off the real issues.

This is now and lots of things have changed - how it got to this isn't counted - all that matters is that dogs don't suffer because of the way they are bred to look.

Having some war about what they were back then doesn't excuse the fact that some breeds suffer less quality of life because they are bred the way they are TODAY.

So rather than excusing such cruelty if it is occurring it needs to be addressed and whether or not they have always looked like this means nothing.

IT would appear that some dogs do have conformation traits which cause them to have health issues and its difficult to deny it when the KC is the one doing the talking about

their own members and their own members dogs.

So if any one really wants to see any good come from this debacle best we talk about now not then - because in the big scheme of things no one cares if the dog in front of them is suffering today.

[LizT]

Some reference has been made to paintings, drawings and sculptures "of Old" in regard to the changes in certain breeds.

I really don't think "Artwork" can be used as an accurate historical record of any animal. It is very much left up to the interpretation of the artist and the style and fashions of the time.

You only have to look at the poorly conformed 'pinhead' Thoroughbreds in some of the old painting to know no horse looked liked that. Some were drawn extremely round and others with what looks like stretched bodies.

While I certainly agree that breeds have changed I don't think we have much to compare prior to the invention of photography.