bulldogz4eva Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 It would be interesting to know why these two breed failed the vet test. Pam Have you looked at a bulldog lately.Not hard to see why.Exaggerated fetures are the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldogz4eva Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I agree that checking for health is important, and the premise that judges have a responsiblity in this is fair, to a degree (noting they are experts on the standard, and not veterinary health). However, I think that while at first glance this 'tough stance' taken by the KC appears admirable, I think there are a few questions. Firstly, why did they wait until after the BOB judging to vet the dogs? I would have thought that, if they were serious about health issues, they would vet the dogs at check in - like you have with cat shows. This way you would be checking all entrants - not just one per breed - and any issues there could be dealt with prior to the show. By only vet checking the winners, it appaers to me to potentially be more of wanting to appear to be 'doing the right thing' that than actually doing the right thing....so, the question is, was this 'vet check' intended to address the serious issue of breed health, or was it more for publicity and the reputation of the KC (and to allieviate criticism aimed at the KC and Crufts from a certain 'documentary')? And when talking about reputations, imagine you are the owner/breeder of the disqualified dogs. I understand one is a champion. Not only did the KC media statement name the breeds, but it named the actual dogs too. Now, many people might say, good, they deserve to be named and shamed if they are breeding animals that are in poor health. And on the surface, I would agree. However, this is the opinion of one vet, and if they have opinions that conflict with that assessment from other reputable vets, where does it leave them? Opinion is a grey area, and this may have an effect of the reputation of the kennels they are from. The KC have taken what they consider to be a strong stance on this issue, but the manner in which they have done so may leave the KC open to possible legal action. Even when agreeing to the rules and conditions of entry, making public a disqualification in such a way that it may effect a breeder's reputation (and future prospects) is not something I would have thought that many would agree to. Maybe I am wrong, but a disqualification and reputation (effectively, moral rights) are two different issues. Just some points to consider. I agree it seems more about the KC not wanting egg on thier face again after that documnetary posted pictures of the winners, more so than doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 As statement and kirty have pointed out a vet certificate from a specialist doesn't mean the dogs eyes are okay. what does it mean then? That they went to an eye specialist and got a certificate for doing so I guess. If they said they have clear and current eye certificates then that's a different matter but either I've missed it (quite possible!) or everyone is just saying the dog has an eye certificate. Too me they are different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 The instructions for the vet (posted in this forum) said that eye inflammation was something the vet should be looking for. The Clumber's left eye (also in the video posted on this forum) did look red and inflamed - the owner/breeder said as much but just gave a reason why she thought it was ok for the dog to have an inflamed eye (i.e. it was too hot). But to me that sounds like the vet did what they were asked to do. Plenty of other dogs were running around the ring that day and passed examination. I don't think it is fair to ask a vet to get up there and enforce an agreed set of requirements, and then criticise them for doing exactly that. Hard to argue that an inflamed eye is not a significant health issue. I don't know much about ectropian or 'haw', but again surely saggy eyelids are unhealthy for a gundog. This is exactly the kind of issue all the fuss has been about. A breed standard apparently allows for an unhealthy 'defect' to be allowed in breed winners. Which raises a moral question about whether that standard should be updated to reflect a healthy set of requirements for the breed. If that wasn't sorted out clearly enough before this year's Crufts, then you can bet your bottom dollar it will be ultra-clear before the next Crufts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 All I have ever said in the past in relation to my dogs was that the dog has a current eye certificate, meaning it was examined and passed as clear. But I would not advertise a dog for use that wasn't clear. I guess it means different things to different people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 As statement and kirty have pointed out a vet certificate from a specialist doesn't mean the dogs eyes are okay. what does it mean then? That they went to an eye specialist and got a certificate for doing so I guess. If they said they have clear and current eye certificates then that's a different matter but either I've missed it (quite possible!) or everyone is just saying the dog has an eye certificate. Too me they are different things. The Bulldog and the Clumber had current clear eye certs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 But to me that sounds like the vet did what they were asked to do. Plenty of other dogs were running around the ring that day and passed examination. I don't think it is fair to ask a vet to get up there and enforce an agreed set of requirements, and then criticise them for doing exactly that. Plenty of other dogs were not examined at all. Only 15 targeted breeds were to be examined and only the BOB winners, so only 15 dogs in total. All the rest were not going to be vet examined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 The instructions for the vet (posted in this forum) said that eye inflammation was something the vet should be looking for. The Clumber's left eye (also in the video posted on this forum) did look red and inflamed - the owner/breeder said as much but just gave a reason why she thought it was ok for the dog to have an inflamed eye (i.e. it was too hot). But to me that sounds like the vet did what they were asked to do. Plenty of other dogs were running around the ring that day and passed examination. I don't think it is fair to ask a vet to get up there and enforce an agreed set of requirements, and then criticise them for doing exactly that. Hard to argue that an inflamed eye is not a significant health issue. I don't know much about ectropian or 'haw', but again surely saggy eyelids are unhealthy for a gundog. This is exactly the kind of issue all the fuss has been about. A breed standard apparently allows for an unhealthy 'defect' to be allowed in breed winners. Which raises a moral question about whether that standard should be updated to reflect a healthy set of requirements for the breed. If that wasn't sorted out clearly enough before this year's Crufts, then you can bet your bottom dollar it will be ultra-clear before the next Crufts. Wasn't there something about the clumber also having conjunctivitis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 As statement and kirty have pointed out a vet certificate from a specialist doesn't mean the dogs eyes are okay. what does it mean then? That they went to an eye specialist and got a certificate for doing so I guess. If they said they have clear and current eye certificates then that's a different matter but either I've missed it (quite possible!) or everyone is just saying the dog has an eye certificate. Too me they are different things. The Bulldog and the Clumber had current clear eye certs. Well then I don't know what they mean either! :laugh: I thought that was the reason we got the certificates? I don't see how a gundog with extremely loose eyelids could win though, surely that should be seen as a massive fault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 Well then I don't know what they mean either! :laugh: I thought that was the reason we got the certificates? I don't see how a gundog with extremely loose eyelids could win though, surely that should be seen as a massive fault? Hence my contention that this is also sending a message to the judges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 To me it is implied that an eye certificate means the dog has no issues relating to the eyes. So, which vet was wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 To me it is implied that an eye certificate means the dog has no issues relating to the eyes. So, which vet was wrong? It depends on what questions the vet was asked. Does the dog meet a certain criteria that enables it to be certified? Or Does this dog have any symptoms of ill-health, including inflammation? The vet will only test what is asked to be tested for, and can only report what he finds on the day he examines the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) The Australian Canine Eye Scheme is a standardised set of questions/examinations. The same things are checked on every dog and measured/recorded in the same way. I believe the UK method is the same. As I said though, there is no clear/unclear as such. Variations, minor issues and major issues are recorded. A dog can be marked as unfit for breeding. But generally ectropion/entropion doesn't exclude a dog from breeding. So a Labrador comes in. It is checked for PRA, cataracts etc and marked as unaffected. However it has mild entropion. This dog would get its eye certificate and is clear for the known inherited conditions. However even though the entropion is noted on the form, it doesn't necessarily exclude the dog from breeding. Edited March 11, 2012 by Kirty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) oops, double post! Edited March 11, 2012 by Alyosha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Can anyone clarify for me? As far as I understood, haw is the term gven to the third eyelid or nictating menbrane. Not the inside tissue of the lower eyelid. Is this correct? So if the standard calls for "some haw may be visible", does that mean the third eyelid may be visible as the lower lid is slightly loose (which also allows debris to come out of the eye easier I understand) and not the lower lid turned out or hanging leaving inner lid tissue exposed? Isn't a visible haw or slightly loose lower eyelid different to ectropion where the lid is visibly turned out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Wasn't there something about the clumber also having conjunctivitis? Yes, but the owner claimed it wasn't conjunctivitis but that the eye was red because of the heat and stuffy conditions at Crufts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Is it normal for a healthy dogs eyes to go red in the heat? Genuine question: I've never heard of that before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I don't think so Megan, although if conditions are humid and hot, it could have created a situation ripe for conjunctivitis perhaps? Others will know more on this than I though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I got an eye complaint from the hot and dusty conditions at the Canberra Royal this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Is it normal for a healthy dogs eyes to go red in the heat? Genuine question: I've never heard of that before You can clearly see my white greyhounds pink skin go red when they have a play session which goes for a while. Must look at their eyes next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now