What Constitutes A "pit Bull Terrier"

[Wobbly]

Is Jarrah a ped dog?

I personally think there is only one real APBT and that is the game/performance bred variety. The others are just Amstaffs with a "cool" name. One of the biggest issues with pit bulls is the sad thing that everyone likes to call their bull mutts and anything with a red nose a pit bull. That's obviously not the case. Especially with pit bulls it's not one unless you know the dogs behind it.

On a side note though, it's incredible what crap registries are willing to register as pure so even a pedigree doesn't guarantee anything -- just look at any Whopper dog...

Nah, Jarrah has no ped, she's a BYB I got at the pound. Pit Bull type not APBT, under threat from BSL despite not neccessarily being APBT. Classic APBT temperament, but individual temperament variances being what they are, she could just as easily be some crazy cross that ends up looking like an APBT - IDK, Staffy, Boxer, Lab or something? I say Pit Bull type because that seems most accurate to me.

Dogs of a particular look can be seized and euthed by council for no better reason than their structure. So I woldn't say Amstaff with a cool name, so much as dogs of a particular outlawed structure. And yes, I do remember someone registering a cat with the ADBA some years ago, hung papers are legion, and can't always be trusted.

One has to ask; what is gameness? We all "know" that 'real APBT's' are bred for gameness, but really, what is gameness?

Is gameness the willingness to fight another dog to the death, or is it the willingness to not give up? Is it the drive to achieve what the dog wants at the moment?

Me, I think that a load of shit is spouted about gameness and most of it is spouted by cowards who want their dogs to make them look tough.

APBT's are the best of dogs, but they are just dogs. A truly game APBT might be possibly too much dog for some pet dog owners, but I'd like my next dog to be a game APBT. I'd like to have a calm, confident dog that is OK with people and not phased by other dogs or other circumstances. Gameness, whatever it is, results in dependable dogs. Don't we all want dependable, calm dogs? The APBT is the best of dogs and I am really pissed off when this magnificent breed gets vilified in the news.

ricey

Gameness is a moot point to me as an owner to be honest. Important for good breeders to define and identify though. I like this defintition: "Gameness is defined as the willingness to see a task through to its end, even under penalty of serious injury or death."

Some want a calm dog, some want a spirited dog, I think Pits are, most assuredly in the latter category.

[Rocketeer]

I do think a really well bred APBT might be too much dog for the average owner. Lots of breeds are like this - most people are aware of the lengths they would have go to to manage a really well bred kelpie of working lines in suburbia - you basically need to be doing organised dog sports of some sort if you don't have access to sheep to keep the dog happy and balanced, or for those less inclined toward organised sports you will see people throwing balls and frisbees on beaches & in parks for hours, or walking, cycling or jogging with the dog for hours, it's a basic neccessity for the dog. People already accept and understand that about working line kelpies and collies, they need to accept that about Pit Bulls too.

I agree. Any working dog that isn't given sufficient physical and mental stimulation is an unhappy dog, a frustrated dog, and this pent up energy can lead to behavioral issues like aggression. A working dog is likely to have higher energy and have higher breed instincts (prey/fight/guard/herd/ whatever instincts) and this energy needs to be channeled (everyday), along with discipline/boundries (everyday) and affection (everyday). If you have the time and energy to wear your dog out everyday, understand dog psychology and of course give them affection then I think you'd be in the running to be a good working dog owner.

[Rocketeer]

Is Jarrah a ped dog?

I personally think there is only one real APBT and that is the game/performance bred variety. The others are just Amstaffs with a "cool" name. One of the biggest issues with pit bulls is the sad thing that everyone likes to call their bull mutts and anything with a red nose a pit bull. That's obviously not the case. Especially with pit bulls it's not one unless you know the dogs behind it.

On a side note though, it's incredible what crap registries are willing to register as pure so even a pedigree doesn't guarantee anything -- just look at any Whopper dog...

The gamebred pitbull is the original type of Apbt. In saying that the breed was never well defined from the beginning. The were many different variations, bloodlines, mixes and yes names for the dog. To me it's seems the dog was more of a concept than a breed. It's only when some of the dogmen tried to begin to regulate the breed that the Apbt name was more tied to standard. How legitimate you think these Apbt registries(and their pedigrees) are, is up to you. I personally won't pay for their papers.

As for these others (dogs with no ped). I won't even say they are Amstaffs with 'cool' names. The Amstaff is a pedigree breed. These "others" are bullbreed mixes often given names like pitbull, Apbt or Amstaff or staffy. Sometimes I see people with dogs and I'd ask them what dog it is, they'll say things like "pitty" or "rednosed pitbull". Then I'll ask how the dog is bred and they'll say stuff like " oh, purebred rednose" or " Dad was a pitty/staffy and mum was a rednose". And I just think. Ok- its a bullbreed mix.

[Wobbly]

I look at it this way - you have the pure breds, dogs of known pedigree - the Amstaff and the APBT.

Then you have all the BYBs, no pedigree records, you can't possibly know what they are for sure - Pit Bull type, or Pit Bull is a generic description for these dogs of unknown provenance.

The gamebred pitbull is the original type of Apbt. In saying that the breed was never well defined from the beginning. The were many different variations, bloodlines, mixes and yes names for the dog. To me it's seems the dog was more of a concept than a breed. It's only when some of the dogmen tried to begin to regulate the breed that the Apbt name was more tied to standard. How legitimate you think these Apbt registries(and their pedigrees) are, is up to you. I personally won't pay for their papers.

Are you seriously saying if you were offered a dog from say Tatonka's next breeding (Sorrell dogs), and you knew the ped was genuine you wouldn't take it in a heart beat? I bet Ricey would jump on it no hesitation!

Dogs like Chinaman, Honeybunch, Jeep, Eli, Spook, Butcher Boy, Buck, Eli, Red Boy etc... etc... I am sure you know all the more famous sires and dams as well I do, we do tend to be obsessive about our breed history we APBT fans, no need for a list. They were extensively line bred on the proviso gameness tends to be hereditary, so a distinct breed was created from these dogs, to capture that trait and propagate it. These old dogs, with that trait of gameness are the basis for the APBT breed, and it is most certainly a breed. The lines that were based on the old dogs - Garner's dogs, Boudreaux's dogs, the Red Hemphill dogs, Colby dogs, Reid dogs, pick your favourite lines... the list goes on, all those men that linebred their best - they created a breed based upon those dogs. There are differences between these lines, both physically and temperamentally, the red dogs are bigger, the Colby dogs are calmer, the Sorrell dogs are all action... Different lines, differences in temperament and structure (the same can be said of GSDs, Kelpies, lots of breeds), but still one breed - the one breed that emphasised gameness as it's primary trait.

Sure there are hung papers, but there's a lot of genuine papers too (very, very few in this country though I think....). The APBTs of modern times, a breed descended from the greats, carrying the genetics for gameness, are incredibly valuable. Gameness is a maladaptive trait, a dog too willing to die does not have the opportunity to pass on his genes, even within APBTs it doesn't crop up with any reliability, since it's fundamentally contrary to the survival of an individual. It's a genetic trait that hasn't been selected for as comprehensively in any other breed that I am aware of, some other terriers perhaps, but those were also selected for breeding for other reasons as well, gameness wasn't the sole determiner for the other terriers. An APBT of genuine good pedigree is about as valuable as it's possible for a dog to be in my eyes, animals carrying this genetic trait of gameness (whether it's expressed or not) there is nothing else like them.

Problem in Australia is we don't know what we have, just a bunch of Pit Bull type mutts, no known pedigree, it's anybody's guess whats in these dogs. The BYBs pumping them out don't even know what an APBT is, they think their poorly formed dogs of incorrect temperament and structure are APBTs, because they have a red nose or a big head or whatever. Bet there's lots of Visla in a lot of the red noses hereabouts, it's weird to me how the red dogs are so popular in Australia, what is with that? Stratton thought they were too big, well they're even bigger here now the idiot BYBs have mixed Viszla and even Dogue De Bordeaux in to get that all important money spinning red nose.

If there is no pedigree they aren't APBTs, they aren't American Staffordshires, they're Pit Bulls, the catch all term for generic Bull breeds of no known ancestry.

Just IMO, feel free to differ. I think there are really no absolutes here - it's like the question of whether an AmStaff is an APBT or not, opinions vary, it's hard to say who's correct on points with no absolutes.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Wobbly

[Wobbly]

But yeah false peds. Definitely a case of caveat emptor. Those Gotti dogs have ADBA pedigrees, which is almost worse than the fact someone managed to register a cat as an APBT. I will see if I can find the story about the cat and link it, funny, but a very sad state of affairs for the breed.

[blakkjackal]

Is Jarrah a ped dog?

I personally think there is only one real APBT and that is the game/performance bred variety. The others are just Amstaffs with a "cool" name. One of the biggest issues with pit bulls is the sad thing that everyone likes to call their bull mutts and anything with a red nose a pit bull. That's obviously not the case. Especially with pit bulls it's not one unless you know the dogs behind it.

On a side note though, it's incredible what crap registries are willing to register as pure so even a pedigree doesn't guarantee anything -- just look at any Whopper dog...

The gamebred pitbull is the original type of Apbt. In saying that the breed was never well defined from the beginning. The were many different variations, bloodlines, mixes and yes names for the dog. To me it's seems the dog was more of a concept than a breed. It's only when some of the dogmen tried to begin to regulate the breed that the Apbt name was more tied to standard. How legitimate you think these Apbt registries(and their pedigrees) are, is up to you. I personally won't pay for their papers.

As for these others (dogs with no ped). I won't even say they are Amstaffs with 'cool' names. The Amstaff is a pedigree breed. These "others" are bullbreed mixes often given names like pitbull, Apbt or Amstaff or staffy. Sometimes I see people with dogs and I'd ask them what dog it is, they'll say things like "pitty" or "rednosed pitbull". Then I'll ask how the dog is bred and they'll say stuff like " oh, purebred rednose" or " Dad was a pitty/staffy and mum was a rednose". And I just think. Ok- its a bullbreed mix.

With "the other dogs" I was referring to UKC/AKC type APBT.

I'm not even going to the bull breed mix thing -- it is an absolute disgrace that everyone seems to be entitled to call their dogs pit bull terriers. I'm also not entirely sure what I think about the whole "pit bull type" thing, as pit bulls are a breed just like dalmatians are and I've never heard anyone say they've got a dalmatian type dog. Or a GSD type dog. Or anything like that. When it comes to actual breed types though, then it is fine. Bull types, shepherds, terriers etc.

[BlackJaq]

I also have been wondering about the red nose thing. Any dog can have a red nose (providing it is genetically a liver), how does a red nose make a dog a pitbull? I've seen photos of a lot of US ped pitbulls and they come in all sorts of colours? Where did the obsession come from?

Or did it start off with somebody who actually knew their stuff and preferred some of the red lines and this got bastardized?

Every time somebody tells me about their red nose pitty I can't stop myself laughing so hard I snort, literally, like a piglet

[Wobbly]

I'm not even going to the bull breed mix thing -- it is an absolute disgrace that everyone seems to be entitled to call their dogs pit bull terriers. I'm also not entirely sure what I think about the whole "pit bull type" thing, as pit bulls are a breed just like dalmatians are and I've never heard anyone say they've got a dalmatian type dog. Or a GSD type dog. Or anything like that. When it comes to actual breed types though, then it is fine. Bull types, shepherds, terriers etc.

Gun dogs, divided into Pointers (GSP, English Pointers etc), Retrievers (labs, godens etc). Lots of breeds and mixes represented here, known collectively as gun dogs (or pointers and retrievers if you want a little more specificity).

Setters, spaniels, water dogs, pit bulls.... I'm not getting your point here?

[Wobbly]

Yer Jaq the red nose thing would be comical, except its so sad and ridiculous.

[Wobbly]

Gun dogs, divided into Pointers (GSP, English Pointers etc), Retrievers (labs, godens etc). Lots of breeds and mixes represented here, known collectively as gun dogs (or pointers and retrievers if you want a little more specificity).

Setters, spaniels, water dogs, pit bulls.... I'm not getting your point here?

Lurchers, what's in a lurcher? Doesn't matter really what the cross is, it's a type rather than a breed.

[melzawelza]

I also have been wondering about the red nose thing. Any dog can have a red nose (providing it is genetically a liver), how does a red nose make a dog a pitbull? I've seen photos of a lot of US ped pitbulls and they come in all sorts of colours? Where did the obsession come from?

Or did it start off with somebody who actually knew their stuff and preferred some of the red lines and this got bastardized?

Every time somebody tells me about their red nose pitty I can't stop myself laughing so hard I snort, literally, like a piglet

It's true, when I was in the US last month talking to 'Pit Bull' rescues and advocacy groups, they couldn't understand why we only seem to define 'pit bulls' as red dogs with red noses. Anything else is an 'Amstaff'.

My theory for why this has happened in Aus -

In the states where BSL has existed it does not only include the APBT. It included all dogs of Pit Bull type, so Amstaffs and SBT as well (And their mixes).

Here in Aus, the APBT is subject to BSL but the Amstaff and SBT are not.

As we all know visual ID of mixed breeds is impossible, particularly when Council Officers are supposed to be able to tell the difference between an Amstaff and an APBT in absence of pedigree.

The only real difference between the two is that Amstaffs do not have red noses (it does crop up sometimes but it is really really rare). I think the 'red nose' became the way for Council Officers to discern between Amstaff and APBT, as that is the only real 'difference' if you are looking at a bull breed type dog in front of you.

This then meant that only red nosed dogs seem to be targeted for BSL (this has now changed in Victoria in the last year but prior to that it was the same there).

Because it is the 'red nosed' dogs that are then targeted for BSL and therefore defined as 'pit bulls', the 'red nosed' dogs seem to have become exclusive and popular. They are being bred at astonishing numbers and everyone wants one. People define their red nosed dogs (with no papers so god knows what they are) as Pit Bulls, and dogs of other colours to be Amstaffs.

I think BSL caused it, particularly the nature of BSL in Aus which does not include Amstaffs and SBT as restricted dogs.

Edited June 18, 2013 by melzawelza

[blakkjackal]

Gun dogs, divided into Pointers (GSP, English Pointers etc), Retrievers (labs, godens etc). Lots of breeds and mixes represented here, known collectively as gun dogs (or pointers and retrievers if you want a little more specificity).

Setters, spaniels, water dogs, pit bulls.... I'm not getting your point here?

Lurchers, what's in a lurcher? Doesn't matter really what the cross is, it's a type rather than a breed.

You make it sound like "pit bulls" are multiple breeds. They aren't, there is only one Pit Bull and that's the American Pit Bull Terrier. It's a shame that the term has become such a vague name for everything half-bullyish looking.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Hockz

[Wobbly]

I guess this one, like the is an Amstaff an APBT debate varies with individuals. To me, the breed I love is the American Pit Bull Terrier. That's the name of the pedigree dogs descended from the greats of the past. A Pit Bull is a catch all term for anything of the same structure and temperament whose ancestry can't reliably be traced.

More importantly and more applicable to us, a Pit Bull is a dog that a council can seize and euthanise simply because it looks a certain way.

Mel, you single handedly rehabilitated my opinion on red nose dog owners, wish there were more like you, who just love their dog and nose colour is neither here nor there. We need more like you!

[blakkjackal]

The term 'red nose' annoys me to no end. The only appropriate use for it would be when talking about Old Family Reds but even then you wouldn't be likely to shorten that to just red nose. I can't stand it when certain physical traits become "fad". Same with blue dogs, I'm utterly disgusted with breeders trying to breed for colour only. Besides, it's not an APBT colour anyway.

A Pit Bull is a catch all term for anything of the same structure and temperament whose ancestry can't reliably be traced.

This is where we have a problem; if pit bulls = most bull breeds with no known lineage and pit bulls = APBT then the burden of the globally bad reputation still falls on the APBT's shoulders. I think we should distinguish these two as "pit bull" is clearly a pet name for an APBT. Encouraging people to call their mutts (no offense, I call mine that too) pit bulls is just not going to help the situation. I understand that this isn't something we can change by ourselves but I think this is where education steps in. As long as this continues every "pit bull attack" will affect the APBTs reputation even if the attacking dogs were scatterbred mutts (which is the case in 99% of the attacks).

[melzawelza]

Gun dogs, divided into Pointers (GSP, English Pointers etc), Retrievers (labs, godens etc). Lots of breeds and mixes represented here, known collectively as gun dogs (or pointers and retrievers if you want a little more specificity).

Setters, spaniels, water dogs, pit bulls.... I'm not getting your point here?

Lurchers, what's in a lurcher? Doesn't matter really what the cross is, it's a type rather than a breed.

You make it sound like "pit bulls" are multiple breeds. They aren't, there is only one Pit Bull and that's the American Pit Bull Terrier. It's a shame that the term has become such a vague name for everything half-bullyish looking.

Whether you like it or not, that is the way the term is used all throughout the US and the rest of the world. 'Pit Bull' is used by legislation and the rest of the community to mean APBT, Amstaff, SBT and their crosses (this group keeps getting wider and wider too).

That's why Animal Farm Foundation changed their mission a few years ago to say that they were working to achieve equal opportunity 'Pit Bull' dogs rather than 'the American Pit Bull Terrier', because they realised that most of the dogs they were helping weren't APBT, but they had been defined under the 'Pit Bull' banner by authorities, by shelters, or by their owners.

I guess this one, like the is an Amstaff an APBT debate varies with individuals. To me, the breed I love is the American Pit Bull Terrier. That's the name of the pedigree dogs descended from the greats of the past. A Pit Bull is a catch all term for anything of the same structure and temperament whose ancestry can't reliably be traced.

More importantly and more applicable to us, a Pit Bull is a dog that a council can seize and euthanise simply because it looks a certain way.

Mel, you single handedly rehabilitated my opinion on red nose dog owners, wish there were more like you, who just love their dog and nose colour is neither here nor there. We need more like you!

I'm really not an anomaly :laugh:

Honestly, there are masses and masses of people who own 'red nosed' dogs who love their dogs and look after them well. The others are just more 'visible'.

I have felt a real change in the last year or so too, with more and more 'average' families seeking out a dog like this, because they have met them and they love them - not for any status symbol or tough guy image.

[Wobbly]

I'm really not an anomaly :laugh:

Honestly, there are masses and masses of people who own 'red nosed' dogs who love their dogs and look after them well. The others are just more 'visible'.

I have felt a real change in the last year or so too, with more and more 'average' families seeking out a dog like this, because they have met them and they love them - not for any status symbol or tough guy image.

I know, I've just had a few too many tough guys asking me to breed their red nose dog with Jarrah, they always express some disappointment she doesn't have a red nose though. Yay for desexing, so these conversations are stopped in their tracks without me having to fulminate on the subject.

There has been a big change though, I have noticed that too. Really happy to see it.

[melzawelza]

I'm really not an anomaly :laugh:

Honestly, there are masses and masses of people who own 'red nosed' dogs who love their dogs and look after them well. The others are just more 'visible'.

I have felt a real change in the last year or so too, with more and more 'average' families seeking out a dog like this, because they have met them and they love them - not for any status symbol or tough guy image.

I know, I've just had a few too many tough guys asking me to breed their red nose dog with Jarrah, they always express some disappointment she doesn't have a red nose though. Yay for desexing, so these conversations are stopped in their tracks without me having to fulminate on the subject.

There has been a big change though, I have noticed that too. Really happy to see it.

There's plenty of those out there too :laugh: but yeah, the change is huge. Many many people wanting to adopt a 'red nosed' dog through rescue, because they have falling in love with this type of dog. I have to admit I'm biased towards that look - love all bull breeds but to me the look of a tan coloured dog with a red nose and amber eyes <3 I like the look of Ridgebacks and Viszla's too for that reason.

I don't get many douchebags asking me to breed Cocoa luckily (she's desexed of course anyway), I think I've had maybe one or two in the year and a half I've had her? We do get stopped CONSTANTLY for cuddles though, like I know you and Jarrah do!!

[Wobbly]

Haha yeah, I am a sucker for the seal coloured dogs now. I get excited everytime I see one. It's not really a flashy colour, or as striking as some of the other dilutes, so not really popular, but to me it's just so associated with an awesome Jarrah dog, it is my favourite dog colour now. I had never seen it till I met Jarrah. I remeber when they were microchipping her they called it black and I was kind of thinking, well it's not black, it's not brown, it's not black and tan wth is it? Finally managed to figure it out with google. It seems pretty much specifically restricted to Greyhounds, Boston Terriers, Am Staffs and APBTs, occasionally turning up in Border Collies too. It's the only colour allele that's not fully understood yet AFAIK, which is frustrating because I love to read about all the genetic mapping progress. Some info here, K or A locus supposedly http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/black.htm

[melzawelza]

Haha yeah, I am a sucker for the seal coloured dogs now. I get excited everytime I see one. It's not really a flashy colour, or as striking as some of the other dilutes, so not really popular, but to me it's just so associated with an awesome Jarrah dog, it is my favourite dog colour now. I had never seen it till I met Jarrah. I remeber when they were microchipping her they called it black and I was kind of thinking, well it's not black, it's not brown, it's not black and tan wth is it? Finally managed to figure it out with google. It seems pretty much specifically restricted to Greyhounds, Boston Terriers, Am Staffs and APBTs, occasionally turning up in Border Collies too. It's the only colour allele that's not fully understood yet AFAIK, which is frustrating because I love to read about all the genetic mapping progress. Some info here, K or A locus supposedly http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/black.htm

LOVE Jarrah's seal colour as well. There are some really stunning seal APBT in the states.

[Rocketeer]

I look at it this way - you have the pure breds, dogs of known pedigree - the Amstaff and the APBT.

Then you have all the BYBs, no pedigree records, you can't possibly know what they are for sure - Pit Bull type, or Pit Bull is a generic description for these dogs of unknown provenance.

The gamebred pitbull is the original type of Apbt. In saying that the breed was never well defined from the beginning. The were many different variations, bloodlines, mixes and yes names for the dog. To me it's seems the dog was more of a concept than a breed. It's only when some of the dogmen tried to begin to regulate the breed that the Apbt name was more tied to standard. How legitimate you think these Apbt registries(and their pedigrees) are, is up to you. I personally won't pay for their papers.

Are you seriously saying if you were offered a dog from say Tatonka's next breeding (Sorrell dogs), and you knew the ped was genuine you wouldn't take it in a heart beat? I bet Ricey would jump on it no hesitation!

Dogs like Chinaman, Honeybunch, Jeep, Eli, Spook, Butcher Boy, Buck, Eli, Red Boy etc... etc... I am sure you know all the more famous sires and dams as well I do, we do tend to be obsessive about our breed history we APBT fans, no need for a list. They were extensively line bred on the proviso gameness tends to be hereditary, so a distinct breed was created from these dogs, to capture that trait and propagate it. These old dogs, with that trait of gameness are the basis for the APBT breed, and it is most certainly a breed. The lines that were based on the old dogs - Garner's dogs, Boudreaux's dogs, the Red Hemphill dogs, Colby dogs, Reid dogs, pick your favourite lines... the list goes on, all those men that linebred their best - they created a breed based upon those dogs. There are differences between these lines, both physically and temperamentally, the red dogs are bigger, the Colby dogs are calmer, the Sorrell dogs are all action... Different lines, differences in temperament and structure (the same can be said of GSDs, Kelpies, lots of breeds), but still one breed - the one breed that emphasised gameness as it's primary trait.

Sure there are hung papers, but there's a lot of genuine papers too (very, very few in this country though I think....). The APBTs of modern times, a breed descended from the greats, carrying the genetics for gameness, are incredibly valuable. Gameness is a maladaptive trait, a dog too willing to die does not have the opportunity to pass on his genes, even within APBTs it doesn't crop up with any reliability, since it's fundamentally contrary to the survival of an individual. It's a genetic trait that hasn't been selected for as comprehensively in any other breed that I am aware of, some other terriers perhaps, but those were also selected for breeding for other reasons as well, gameness wasn't the sole determiner for the other terriers. An APBT of genuine good pedigree is about as valuable as it's possible for a dog to be in my eyes, animals carrying this genetic trait of gameness (whether it's expressed or not) there is nothing else like them.

Problem in Australia is we don't know what we have, just a bunch of Pit Bull type mutts, no known pedigree, it's anybody's guess whats in these dogs. The BYBs pumping them out don't even know what an APBT is, they think their poorly formed dogs of incorrect temperament and structure are APBTs, because they have a red nose or a big head or whatever. Bet there's lots of Visla in a lot of the red noses hereabouts, it's weird to me how the red dogs are so popular in Australia, what is with that? Stratton thought they were too big, well they're even bigger here now the idiot BYBs have mixed Viszla and even Dogue De Bordeaux in to get that all important money spinning red nose.

If there is no pedigree they aren't APBTs, they aren't American Staffordshires, they're Pit Bulls, the catch all term for generic Bull breeds of no known ancestry.

Just IMO, feel free to differ. I think there are really no absolutes here - it's like the question of whether an AmStaff is an APBT or not, opinions vary, it's hard to say who's correct on points with no absolutes.

What I mean is- In the beginning stages there was little control on the dogs. The only real standard they had was ‘winning’. So the breed was based on the concept of producing a winning dog and in those days could have been a mixture of English, Irish imports and whatever American dogs were around back then. Therefore many of the early dogs could have been any mixture of English or Irish Staffordshire types and American dogs- who knows. This means there was a diverse gene pool and range of blood.

So who can say which dogs are purebred when they were no bona fide standard or registry? Yes the UKC and ADBA tried to regulate the breed. But when you see crossbreds with pedigree papers, the papers lose value.

Many of the Dogmen never cared for papers anyway. Everything was more word of mouth and written down on paper for personal reference. Then with the popularity of the breed in the past few decades, over-breeding also led to the blood being mixed up.

Yes are some kennels/breeders who have long-standing bloodlines. Then they are some high dogs with a percentage of Apbt bloodlines, then there are some dogs who just have too many bloodlines in them; meaning you can’t say you can trace them back to the original dogs.

So in my opinion the name ‘Apbt’ itself is of no significance to me as the diverse gene pool and overpopulation has lead to far too many variations and mixes. It’s the dog itself and the dogs behind it that matters.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Rocketeer