What Constitutes A "pit Bull Terrier"

[Rocketeer]

Is the Pit Bull type of dog easier genetically for the yobbo to extract aggression from, than other breeds, are they an easier dog to make dangerous? I don't know the answer to that from a BSL perspective, but is it to do with genetic capability to attack/bite being greater than other breeds being a reason for restriction?

Dogs can be (and some are) bred to promote aggressive tendencies. Let’s not forget that many cute white fluffies were originally bred as ratters and with irresponsible breeding some of those aggressive tendencies can re-emerge. Failure to properly socialise and train dogs can also reinforce these negative tendencies.

Unfortunately, what most responsible owners don’t want to acknowledge, is that there are far too many morons out there who actively seek dangerous and aggressive dogs. Just do a Google search and you will find plenty of nuts asking questions like “I want to get a dog that will rip the nuts of anyone that comes through my front door, and won’t be put down by a few gunshots, should I get a pit-bull or a Rottweiler or what?”

As usual it is these jerks and their dogs that give the breed a bad name.

The difference I suppose is this:

If an irresponsible owner buys a “white fluffy” from a bad BYB, and doesn’t train and socialise the dog properly, they may end up with a psychotic little nutter that will bite someone, and which they will end up dumping at the pound.

If an irresponsible owner buys a “pit bull” from a bad BYB, and doesn’t train and socialise the dog properly, they may end up with a psychotic nutter that will savage someone, possibly fatally.

So the solution to your problem is to ban every dog over about 10kg right? Because any dog over 10kg that hasn't been trained or socialised properly has the potential to savage someone, possibly fatally.

The other point you are forgetting is that banning breeds doesn't eliminate them, it creates a DEMAND on the black market for that specific demographic you mention, making the problem much worse. Anecdotally it seems that in NSW there are more pit bull type dogs around now than there were prior to the legislation coming in, and certainly pups of unknown heritage are fetching $1000+ when prior to the legislation they would have been worth a few hundred bucks at most.

Yes Banning doesn't eliminate them. Has the demand gone up? I think the hype around has died down in recent years. I think actually responsible pet owners and working dog breeders are associating less with the breed due to the liabilities of owning the breed and the amount of w@nkers the breed attracts.

[ricey]

Is the Pit Bull type of dog easier genetically for the yobbo to extract aggression from, than other breeds, are they an easier dog to make dangerous? I don't know the answer to that from a BSL perspective, but is it to do with genetic capability to attack/bite being greater than other breeds being a reason for restriction?

Dogs can be (and some are) bred to promote aggressive tendencies. Let’s not forget that many cute white fluffies were originally bred as ratters and with irresponsible breeding some of those aggressive tendencies can re-emerge. Failure to properly socialise and train dogs can also reinforce these negative tendencies.

Unfortunately, what most responsible owners don’t want to acknowledge, is that there are far too many morons out there who actively seek dangerous and aggressive dogs. Just do a Google search and you will find plenty of nuts asking questions like “I want to get a dog that will rip the nuts of anyone that comes through my front door, and won’t be put down by a few gunshots, should I get a pit-bull or a Rottweiler or what?”

As usual it is these jerks and their dogs that give the breed a bad name.

The difference I suppose is this:

If an irresponsible owner buys a “white fluffy” from a bad BYB, and doesn’t train and socialise the dog properly, they may end up with a psychotic little nutter that will bite someone, and which they will end up dumping at the pound.

If an irresponsible owner buys a “pit bull” from a bad BYB, and doesn’t train and socialise the dog properly, they may end up with a psychotic nutter that will savage someone, possibly fatally.

So the solution to your problem is to ban every dog over about 10kg right? Because any dog over 10kg that hasn't been trained or socialised properly has the potential to savage someone, possibly fatally.

The other point you are forgetting is that banning breeds doesn't eliminate them, it creates a DEMAND on the black market for that specific demographic you mention, making the problem much worse. Anecdotally it seems that in NSW there are more pit bull type dogs around now than there were prior to the legislation coming in, and certainly pups of unknown heritage are fetching $1000+ when prior to the legislation they would have been worth a few hundred bucks at most.

Yes Banning doesn't eliminate them. Has the demand gone up? I think the hype around has died down in recent years. I think actually responsible pet owners and working dog breeders are associating less with the breed due to the liabilities of owning the breed and the amount of w@nkers the breed attracts.

Hi Rocketeer,

There are w@nkers attracted to all dog breeds. You only have to spend a bit of time surfing DOL's pages to find ample evidence of that. But the breed is not the problem; it is the w@nker. The American Pit Bull Terrier is not the problem. Same as the German Shepherd was never a problem breed, but it had some problem owners.

The research and the resultant evidence is clear; any prefecture that uses breed specific legislation to address its 'dog problem' just makes its problem worse. Only a very stupid or ill-informed government would use breed specific legislation to address its perceived dog problem.

I don't pretend to have all the answers or know everything about dogs but I do know that all the evidence suggests that breed specific legislation is a crock of sh!t that only losers support.

I support the American Pit Bull Terrier; I do not resile from that. The American Pit Bull Terrier is amongst the best of dog breeds. The American Pit Bull Terrier should not be judged by the actions of some of its owners. Nor should it be judged by Murdoch press 'journalists' (I use that term loosely).

ricey

[Jed]

Hi, Ricey, good to see you!!

I do wish those people who believe that a pitbull has some type of pre-disposition to become a dry land shark would do some research. The bite stats are a good place to start

Last week, I was bitten quite badly on the back of the thigh by a King Charles Spaniel, which are supposed be poor watchdogs and very friendly. This one was, but it was a watchdog as well. Not a Cavalier King Charles, a King Charles (different breed)

Deed NOT breed

Edited March 27, 2013 by Jed

[ricey]

Hi Jed,

Long time, no speak (my fault entirely for behaving badly 4 years ago and deservedly getting banned).

I think it is a bit sad that 4 years later on, the same questions are being asked on DOL about American Pit Bull Terriers and the same misinformation is still being peddled.

It is like I didn't miss anything by not being on DOL for 4 years; nothing has changed. There are still people in Australia (like Bill Shorten for example) who describe American Pit Bull Terriers as 'sharks on legs'. Emotive, populist crap, but what else do we expect from a politician?

My pit bull Hobbes is getting old; he is 12 going on 13 years. He survived a malignant melanoma 3 years ago and he still plays like a puppy, but I think that he probably only has 2 or 3 years at most left. I will be devastated when he goes. Hobbes was the dog that showed me how rewarding being a dog owner could be. I have no idea what I will do to fill the void he will leave. Perhaps I will get a puppy; I have never had a puppy as all my dogs have been adult rescue dogs.

Maybe I should get a standard poodle puppy; these are fine intelligent and tough dogs. But I hanker after an American Pit Bull Terrier puppy, male and intact. The way I look at it, having an intact male dog is just like having any other dog. You have to take responsibility for the dog and ensure that it is not a problem. I have never owned an entire male dog in the 30 or more years that I have

"owned" dogs. I am yet to be convinced of all the 'health benefits' that are supposed to come from sterilising your dog. Cynically, I think that dog rescues spout a whole load of bull dust about how lopping off your pup's testes will lead to a longer and better life for it.

If I had the time and inclination, I'd like to breed dogs but I figure that I know nothing about breeding dogs so I should leave it to the experts. But who is breeding good American Pit Bull Terriers in Australia? There are only two reputable APBT breeders that I know of in WA and they may be the only reputable APBT breeders in Australia.

Cheers,

ricey

[juice]

Nothing to add, just saw your name Ricey, good to have you back!!!

Edited April 25, 2013 by juice

[Jed]

Agree with all that Ricey - nothing really changes. And people still believe the PB will kill them as soon as look at them. So disheartening.

IMHO, there is little difference with entire male dogs. As a breeder all my friends have entire dogs. No problem. Desexing is all about not allowing the public to own entire dogs in case they get some female dog pregnant.

My neighbours have an entire RR x staffy, and I don't see any different behaviors.

I am not going to ask whether breeding APBT in WA is legal or not, but if so, and if keeping one is legal too, grab one when you want one, before they ban them. Otherwise how about a Amstaff?

Or a standard poodle!! Great dogs. Saw an apricot and a silver with stunning lion clips in the back of a tradies ute at the pub a few years ago......how impressive, a tradie with no issues!!

[ricey]

Hi Jed,

I know you said

I am not going to ask whether breeding APBT in WA is legal or not, but if so, and if keeping one is legal too, grab one when you want one, before they ban them.

but I am going to answer anyway LOL. Nope, the breeding and the owning of intact American Pit Bull Terriers is expressly verboten in WA. However,.........

The WA Restricted Breed regulations were drafted very badly (supposedly this was done deliberately ) and there is no way of enforcing them. Unlike other states, council rangers were not given the authority to determine a disputed dog's breed, and so the farcical situation exists in WA where you can register a Newfoundland as a Chinese crested/pekingese cross and no ranger is able to tell you that you are wrong.

Here in WA, the RSPCA is actively rehoming American Pit Bull Terriers, which would probably come as a major surprise to DOL members from Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria. Hey, it would probably cause an apoplectic seizure in Graeme Smith, but that would be a good thing . Some 3 or so years ago when the anti pit bull hysterical legislation was ramping up in the eastern states, WA became a safe haven for pit bulls that otherwise would have been killed by the state machine. I played a small part in helping to rehome 15 or so of these dogs.

So yes, it is easily possible and legally quite safe to own an intact American Pit Bull Terrier in WA, except that you have to register your dog as another breed. I think that I will register mine as a Dogue de Bourdeaux/Hungarian puli/Shih Tsu/Tibetan Mastiff cross. I will ensure that my dog is very well socialised, very well trained, and never a problem for the society I live in.

As for your question

Otherwise how about a Amstaff?

Amstaffs are fine dogs, and they certainly are American Pit Bull Terriers, but they have been bred in different directions over the last 80 years. I see a few Amstaffs that are fine athletic dogs but I see more that are overly blocky concrete slabs of dogs that are not athletes. The American Pit Bull Terrier has always supposed to have been "bull AND terrier" not just bull. Well bred American Pit Bull Terriers were never supposed to be much above 28kg. My Hobbes at 26kg is near the upper weight range for American Pit Bull Terriers, and if I worked and dieted him he would probably drop 3 or 4kg to sit at 22 to 23kg. American Pit Bull Terriers are not supposed to be big dogs. I am appalled by AmStaff breeders who proudly state how big their dogs' heads are and how much they weigh.

I am going to shut up now before I dig an even bigger hole for me to fall in. I do like Amstaffs but most of them are not for me. If I was going to get an Amstaff, I'd opt for the runt of the litter as long as it was confident. Small confident Amstaff pup = Pit Bull Terrier (maybe) .

ricey

Edited April 30, 2013 by ricey

[ricey]

Nothing to add, just saw your name Ricey, good to have you back!!!

Thanks, it is so good to be back!

I'm on my best behaviour, aint never gonna get banned again

ricey

[juice]

Interesting post Ricey.

Would you post a pic of the way a Pit ,and Amstaff should look? If you can find any.I would love to see what they really should be looking like.

I too hate the adds for "massive heads".

This week i have seen 2 huge Amstaffs ( rare blue of course), and they were certainly no athlete's.

As far as rescue and desexing goes, its to stop more dogs being born that no one wants from mutts.

I do remember having to send dogs to WA a few years back, i sent a lovely red boy who i miss dearly, my kids wanted to keep him, but with his lovely red coat and nose he wasn't safe here.

And ot, there is a Tibetan Mastiff at the end of my street, huge beast! :D

Edited April 28, 2013 by juice

[ricey]

Interesting post Ricey.

Would you post a pic of the way a Pit ,and Amstaff should look? If you can find any.I would love to see what they really should be looking like.

I too hate the adds for "massive heads".

This week i have seen 2 huge Amstaffs ( rare blue of course), and they were certainly no athlete's.

As far as rescue and desexing goes, its to stop more dogs being born that no one wants from mutts.

I do remember having to send dogs to WA a few years back, i sent a lovely red boy who i miss dearly, my kids wanted to keep him, but with his lovely red coat and nose he wasn't safe here.

And ot, there is a Tibetan Mastiff at the end of my street, huge beast! :D

Hi juice,

I should post up pictures of the APBT's I helped rescue from the eastern states. Most were red with red noses and nearly all were male; I guess there is a chance that the red boy your kids are missing came through my yard. I have been off DOL for around 4 years and I have forgotten how to post photos on DOL. I have photos on my Photobucket account of all the dogs I helped rescue (most were pit bulls but there are a few little fluffies, kelpies, blue heelers, bull terriers, and at least 1 'ban dog'). I will get around to working out how to post their photos.

As for your request for photos to describe how an APBT or an American Staffordshire Terrier should look, I only have two photos of a dog called Primo. Both APBT's and AST's should look like Primo; as you probably know, Primo was the Colby line American Pit Bull Terrier that was used as the 'reference dog' when the American Staffordshire Terrier standard was established in 1934 or thereabouts. Primo is an excelllent example of an American Pit Bull Terrier and is also what American Staffordshire Terriers should be. An American Staffordshire Terrier should be indistinguishable from an American Pit Bull Terrier. They should not only look the same, they should behave the same and be the same.

ricey

[Rocketeer]

Interesting post Ricey.

Would you post a pic of the way a Pit ,and Amstaff should look? If you can find any.I would love to see what they really should be looking like.

I too hate the adds for "massive heads".

This week i have seen 2 huge Amstaffs ( rare blue of course), and they were certainly no athlete's.

As far as rescue and desexing goes, its to stop more dogs being born that no one wants from mutts.

I do remember having to send dogs to WA a few years back, i sent a lovely red boy who i miss dearly, my kids wanted to keep him, but with his lovely red coat and nose he wasn't safe here.

And ot, there is a Tibetan Mastiff at the end of my street, huge beast! :D

There's nothing wrong with bully type Amstaffs or blues. Everyone has their own preferences. Each to their own.

[ricey]

Interesting post Ricey.

Would you post a pic of the way a Pit ,and Amstaff should look? If you can find any.I would love to see what they really should be looking like.

I too hate the adds for "massive heads".

This week i have seen 2 huge Amstaffs ( rare blue of course), and they were certainly no athlete's.

As far as rescue and desexing goes, its to stop more dogs being born that no one wants from mutts.

I do remember having to send dogs to WA a few years back, i sent a lovely red boy who i miss dearly, my kids wanted to keep him, but with his lovely red coat and nose he wasn't safe here.

And ot, there is a Tibetan Mastiff at the end of my street, huge beast! :D

There's nothing wrong with bully type Amstaffs or blues. Everyone has their own preferences. Each to their own.

True, but the American Staffordshire Terrier is a terrier as well as a bull breed so it should be both. And while there is nothing wrong with blue AmStaffs, there certainly is something wrong with breeding a dog just because its colour is popular and worth a bit of money. Also, I have seen AmStaffs whose legs are so wide apart that they can hardly support their barrel chests or massive heads. The AmStaff should be an athlete, not a body builder. Like you, I like bully type AmStaffs but not when it is over done. Primo is the dog that the AmStaff was based on; when AmStaffs look nothing like Primo, they are not as AmStaffs should be.

ricey

[Rocketeer]

Interesting post Ricey.

Would you post a pic of the way a Pit ,and Amstaff should look? If you can find any.I would love to see what they really should be looking like.

I too hate the adds for "massive heads".

This week i have seen 2 huge Amstaffs ( rare blue of course), and they were certainly no athlete's.

As far as rescue and desexing goes, its to stop more dogs being born that no one wants from mutts.

I do remember having to send dogs to WA a few years back, i sent a lovely red boy who i miss dearly, my kids wanted to keep him, but with his lovely red coat and nose he wasn't safe here.

And ot, there is a Tibetan Mastiff at the end of my street, huge beast! :D

There's nothing wrong with bully type Amstaffs or blues. Everyone has their own preferences. Each to their own.

True, but the American Staffordshire Terrier is a terrier as well as a bull breed so it should be both. And while there is nothing wrong with blue AmStaffs, there certainly is something wrong with breeding a dog just because its colour is popular and worth a bit of money. Also, I have seen AmStaffs whose legs are so wide apart that they can hardly support their barrel chests or massive heads. The AmStaff should be an athlete, not a body builder. Like you, I like bully type AmStaffs but not when it is over done. Primo is the dog that the AmStaff was based on; when AmStaffs look nothing like Primo, they are not as AmStaffs should be.

ricey

Yes the Apbt/Amstaff is Bull and Terrier. Some Apbts are small and thin, they look almost like Whippets. Yet some can look like mastiffs. Who's to say one or the other is wrong. Everyone has their own preference and that's great. Yes some colours have been overbred (like red-nosed Apbts), at least that lets the better breeders know what they don't want to aim for. Although conformation was not a big consideration in breeding of game-bred Apbts I do believe in a balanced body for a healthy and happy pet.

[ricey]

Yes the Apbt/Amstaff is Bull and Terrier. Some Apbts are small and thin, they look almost like Whippets. Yet some can look like mastiffs. Who's to say one or the other is wrong. Everyone has their own preference and that's great. Yes some colours have been overbred (like red-nosed Apbts), at least that lets the better breeders know what they don't want to aim for. Although conformation was not a big consideration in breeding of game-bred Apbts I do believe in a balanced body for a healthy and happy pet.

I have to agree you Rocketeer; nearly all the rescue APBTs from NSW that I dealt with were red nosed fawn. I guess that all the council rangers found them easy to identify and so over breeding this type of APBT was not good for them. Most Australians seem to think that all APBTs are buckskin with red noses

I agree with you about sizes of APBTs; the UKC breed standard for APBTs allows for a huge range in height and weight

Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds.

As a general and approximate guideline only, the desirable height range for mature males is from 18 to 21 inches at the withers; for mature females it is from 17 to 20 inches at the withers.

It is important to note that dogs over or under these weight and height ranges are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy.

The ADBA breed standard does not even mention weight or height , but emphasises balance in all aspects

Above all, the American Pit Bull Terrier should appear to be an all around athlete. His body is called upon for speed, power, agility and stamina. He must be balanced in all directions. Too much of one thing, robs him of another. In his ideal form, he is a thing of beauty.

I think we both agree that when the APBT is not agile and athletic, they become lesser examples of the breed. 35 pound lower limit for males is a touch under 16 kilos; 60 pounds is a touch over 27 kilos.. In my dreams I think of when the breed restrictions are finally repealed that both ends of the APBT spectrum will become available. Unfortunately that is not likely to happen anytime soon.

It is good talking with you.

Cheers,

ricey

Edited May 6, 2013 by ricey

[Dame Aussie]

I didn't know that about WA ricey, might have to get myself over there!

I prefer a smaller, more lean and agile APBT, but also appreciate the boofers :)

[ricey]

I didn't know that about WA ricey, might have to get myself over there!

I prefer a smaller, more lean and agile APBT, but also appreciate the boofers :)

Hi Aussie3,

Yeah, I too like the lean dogs (my Hobbes is a bit too porky at 27kg); I must get around to putting him and me on a weight reduction and exercise programme as I should lose 12 kilos and Hobbes should lose 3 to 4 kilos). You know what they say about dogs looking like their owners

Yes, you can own an APBT safely here in WA if you know the loophole (which is big enough to drive a road train packed with pit bulls through :laugh: ).

I was a bit concerned that I should not have blabbed about the loophole on a public forum, but the rangers here in WA know about it anyway and don't seem to be concerned. They have enough work to do already without having to identify, round up and destroy perfectly good family pets.

Having said that, there are reportedly a few individual rangers from a few Perth metro councils who have an anti-pit bull agenda, but only a few. At present, the WA restricted breed regulations are unenforceable, but that situation could change at any time on a whim of the government. As governments of both persuasions (Labor initially around 11 years ago, and Liberal a year or two ago) have enacted different versions of the restricted breed regulations, and both versions are equally unenforceable, I am hoping that nothing will change any time soon.

So if I was to get back on topic and answer the original poster's question "what constitutes a pit bull?", here in WA there is no such breed as a pit bull (as long as its owner has registered it as something else). There were some pit bull owners whose dogs where previously registered as American Pit Bull Terriers prior to the first enactment of the original restrictions in 2002 by the Gallop Labor government, and these dog owners had to comply with the restricted breed regulations. Most of these APBTs would be over 12 years old now, and most would be over the rainbow bridge. I see pit bull terriers out and about with their owners here in Bayswater WA most days, and I have never seen an APBT with a muzzle or a fluoro 'dangerous dog' collar.

ricey

[juice]

The lovely "Nudge" , who went to WA . :)

[Dame Aussie]

Now that's what I call a gorgeous dog look at those eyes..

[ricey]

The lovely "Nudge" , who went to WA . :)

Looking at Nudge, I was sure that he came through my yard on the way to a new home in Kalgoorlie so I checked my photos. However, that chest marking is very distinctive and I couldn't find a photo of Nudge so he probably isn't one of the pitties I helped with (I took photos of rearly all the red nose/red pitties that came through my yard so I can't be sure, but I think I would remember that distinctive chest marking).

Lovely looking dog; it is shameful that these dogs are persecuted in most parts of Australia.

ricey

[juice]

I'm sure he went via "Ivy'?

I still keep a framed pic of him in the kids playroom for them.

Edited May 13, 2013 by juice