Breeders Blurb

[Astese]

I have just spent 5 minutes reading an advertisement, Blurb, from a breeder of a non-recognised breed of dog here in Australia . The Kennel Advertisement intrigued me to no end so I kept reading and half way through the two page blurb about genetic pooling/pedigrees/frozen semen etc it mentioned using not one but two different recognised breeds to improve the bloodlines (against the ANKC Code of Ethics for a start). Exporting these dogs overseas having them registered and eventually importing their offsprings back into Australia under a new breed name. Confused how it works well I am!!!!!!!

Surely the ANKC is not totally stupid to recognise this as a Con Job.

[Miranda]

Exporting these dogs overseas having them registered

By whom? Which registry?

[Wazzat Xolo]

Exporting these dogs overseas having them registered

By whom? Which registry?

Dogs to be imported and reg here still need a THREE generation pedigree showing all on the pedigree with registration numbers and a breeder affix/suffix, so its highly unlikey to get through, unless they fudge the pedigree!

[Miranda]

I was just wondering which overseas registry was going to register these dogs so they can then be returned to Australia and registered here. Sounds like a load of crap to me.

[Wazzat Xolo]

I was just wondering which overseas registry was going to register these dogs so they can then be returned to Australia and registered here. Sounds like a load of crap to me.

I am sure some registry will register them, but as I said the ANKC wont look at peds unless they have the three gens and reg numbers ( no interbreeding would even get a look in to an FCI International pedigree, so I agree its crap!

Having just imported a dog to be registered here with No prefix, I know the rules and the process, and its a lot of work to get recognised dogs in, the Breeds that are not recognised are also a lot of work and the people at the new breeds committee are very spot on with perusing documents.

[becks]

isn't this similar to the WSS and white GSDs? ANKC white GSDs being sent abroad and being registered as WSS? Or is my memory failing on those conversations on here from awhile ago?

[Wazzat Xolo]

isn't this similar to the WSS and white GSDs? ANKC white GSDs being sent abroad and being registered as WSS? Or is my memory failing on those conversations on here from awhile ago?

I think that was stopped.

[EISHUND]

isn't this similar to the WSS and white GSDs? ANKC white GSDs being sent abroad and being registered as WSS? Or is my memory failing on those conversations on here from awhile ago?

I think that was stopped.

Just to clarify.

NEVER, has an ANKC White German Shepherd EVER been re-registered as a White Swiss Shepherd Dog overseas.

Non ANKC (Unregistered) White Shepherds, have however, been exported & assessed against the standard & accepted for re-rego as a WSS in countries that have an open stud book. These indivdiual dogs can NOT be imported back into Australia as WSSD as they will not fulfil the pedigree requirement for re-registration of an imported dog with the ANKC.

[BJean]

isn't this similar to the WSS and white GSDs? ANKC white GSDs being sent abroad and being registered as WSS? Or is my memory failing on those conversations on here from awhile ago?

I think that was stopped.

Just to clarify.

NEVER, has an ANKC White German Shepherd EVER been re-registered as a White Swiss Shepherd Dog overseas.

Non ANKC (Unregistered) White Shepherds, have however, been exported & assessed against the standard & accepted for re-rego as a WSS in countries that have an open stud book. These indivdiual dogs can NOT be imported back into Australia as WSSD as they will not fulfil the pedigree requirement for re-registration of an imported dog with the ANKC.

The new registration ruling deems it possible for the offspring to be imported to Australia and registered with the ANKC. A lot depends on how the o/s breed club registry running the open stud book records their pedigrees.

The ANKC has to recognise all AKC / FCI pedigrees, even if the registries of the dogs in the background (ie three generations) are not recognised by the ANKC.

Edited March 7, 2012 by lilli

[Janba]

The new registration ruling deems it possible for the offspring to be imported to Australia and registered with the ANKC. A lot depends on how the o/s breed club registry running the open stud book records their pedigrees.

The ANKC has to recognise all AKC / FCI pedigrees, even if the registries of the dogs in the background (ie three generations) are not recognised by the ANKC.

Not just the AKC but other countries CCs the ANKC recognises.

[BJean]

The new registration ruling deems it possible for the offspring to be imported to Australia and registered with the ANKC. A lot depends on how the o/s breed club registry running the open stud book records their pedigrees.

The ANKC has to recognise all AKC / FCI pedigrees, even if the registries of the dogs in the background (ie three generations) are not recognised by the ANKC.

Not just the AKC but other countries CCs the ANKC recognises.

Yes AKC / FCI and KC would be the main ones.

I just checked the reg rules, the three generations / complete pedigree specification is no longer mentioned, so it is possible to import direct offspring from the exported dog.

Edited March 7, 2012 by lilli

[Wazzat Xolo]

isn't this similar to the WSS and white GSDs? ANKC white GSDs being sent abroad and being registered as WSS? Or is my memory failing on those conversations on here from awhile ago?

I think that was stopped.

Just to clarify.

NEVER, has an ANKC White German Shepherd EVER been re-registered as a White Swiss Shepherd Dog overseas.

Non ANKC (Unregistered) White Shepherds, have however, been exported & assessed against the standard & accepted for re-rego as a WSS in countries that have an open stud book. These indivdiual dogs can NOT be imported back into Australia as WSSD as they will not fulfil the pedigree requirement for re-registration of an imported dog with the ANKC.

The new registration ruling deems it possible for the offspring to be imported to Australia and registered with the ANKC. A lot depends on how the o/s breed club registry running the open stud book records their pedigrees.

The ANKC has to recognise all AKC / FCI pedigrees, even if the registries of the dogs in the background (ie three generations) are not recognised by the ANKC.

The only exception to regulations Part 6 3.3 is where both parents are not of the same breed I.e. Sire is a WSS but the Dam is a GSD. This is an FCI ruling rather than an ANKC one and it is especially relevant to the WSS as some FCI countries are still allowing the cross breeding of WSS and GSD. No other country is required to register the first generation offspring from these matings.

For anyone importing a dog where the pedigree is not fully complete, I would suggest including a copy of ANKC Regulations Part 6 3.3 with their application to re register, stating that the certified pedigree from the recognised overseas canine control complies with this regulation.

The decision to re register should easily be made at the state level and no other group or committee should need to be involved, unless it is an entirely new breed that has never previously be recognised in Australia.

J

Edited March 7, 2012 by Wazzat Xolo

[becks]

isn't this similar to the WSS and white GSDs? ANKC white GSDs being sent abroad and being registered as WSS? Or is my memory failing on those conversations on here from awhile ago?

I think that was stopped.

Just to clarify.

NEVER, has an ANKC White German Shepherd EVER been re-registered as a White Swiss Shepherd Dog overseas.

Non ANKC (Unregistered) White Shepherds, have however, been exported & assessed against the standard & accepted for re-rego as a WSS in countries that have an open stud book. These indivdiual dogs can NOT be imported back into Australia as WSSD as they will not fulfil the pedigree requirement for re-registration of an imported dog with the ANKC.

The new registration ruling deems it possible for the offspring to be imported to Australia and registered with the ANKC. A lot depends on how the o/s breed club registry running the open stud book records their pedigrees.

The ANKC has to recognise all AKC / FCI pedigrees, even if the registries of the dogs in the background (ie three generations) are not recognised by the ANKC.

Yes, that is what I was meaning, I didn't mean to export and then reimport the same dog just to get it registered!

[BJean]

The new registration ruling deems it possible for the offspring to be imported to Australia and registered with the ANKC. A lot depends on how the o/s breed club registry running the open stud book records their pedigrees.

The ANKC has to recognise all AKC / FCI pedigrees, even if the registries of the dogs in the background (ie three generations) are not recognised by the ANKC.

Yes, that is what I was meaning, I didn't mean to export and then reimport the same dog just to get it registered!

Yes for ex: dog from Turkey goes to USA, then offspring from the same dog is imported to Australa with an AKC pedigree.

Edited March 7, 2012 by lilli

[Wazzat Xolo]

The new registration ruling deems it possible for the offspring to be imported to Australia and registered with the ANKC. A lot depends on how the o/s breed club registry running the open stud book records their pedigrees.

The ANKC has to recognise all AKC / FCI pedigrees, even if the registries of the dogs in the background (ie three generations) are not recognised by the ANKC.

Yes, that is what I was meaning, I didn't mean to export and then reimport the same dog just to get it registered!

Yes for ex: dog from Turkey goes to USA, then offspring from the same dog is imported to Australa with an AKC pedigree.

I did that last year, had a bitch in whelp moved to a cat4 country so I could get what I needed, its not a new rule, but a way to get a dog from a Cat 6 country that are not allowed in Aus from direct import.

[BJean]

Yes for ex: dog from Turkey goes to USA, then offspring from the same dog is imported to Australa with an AKC pedigree.

I did that last year, had a bitch in whelp moved to a cat4 country so I could get what I needed, its not a new rule, but a way to get a dog from a Cat 6 country that are not allowed in Aus from direct import.

No, it is not the same thing :)

Previously, a dog had to have a complete three generation pedigree AND all dogs in that pedigree to be from ANKC recognised CCs.

Now dogs can be imported and registered with the ANKC, as long as the dog's pedigree is issued by an ANKC recognised CC.

Without a pedigree issued by an ANKC recognised CC, dogs from countries where there is no ANKC recognised CC (ie: Turkey) cannot be re-registered by the ANKC.

This is independent to the AQIS process that requires the dog to live in a category 4 country for 7 to 9 months before arriving in Australia.

Edited March 8, 2012 by lilli

[Astese]

I was just wondering which overseas registry was going to register these dogs so they can then be returned to Australia and registered here. Sounds like a load of crap to me.

That is what she had in her Kennel Blurb. Her words not mine that is why I thought this interesting. Send a dog overseas, with a so called pedigree, have it registered in another country that recognises the so called breed. Breed with it for four generations and have the offprings imported back as something else. How

[EISHUND]

The new registration ruling deems it possible for the offspring to be imported to Australia and registered with the ANKC. A lot depends on how the o/s breed club registry running the open stud book records their pedigrees.

The ANKC has to recognise all AKC / FCI pedigrees, even if the registries of the dogs in the background (ie three generations) are not recognised by the ANKC.

Not just the AKC but other countries CCs the ANKC recognises.

Yes AKC / FCI and KC would be the main ones.

I just checked the reg rules, the three generations / complete pedigree specification is no longer mentioned, so it is possible to import direct offspring from the exported dog.

Regarding WSSD, when they are assessed & accepted overseas by countries still developing the breed with open stud books, they are registered with no pedigree acknowledged, just the individual dog itself is registered. I know this, as 'White Shepherd' pups of my own have been re-registered overseas. (Previous to me becoming an ANKC breeder after the WSSD was recognised in Australia). Any questions regarding my choices should be answered on the about page of my website www.eishund.com (it's very out of date, but you'll get the gist)

I think it's a difficult one the WSSD, as although developed separately, they are still genetically the same as another recognised breed, having descended directly from it. However, now that they are separated, it is classed as cross-breeding, and rightly so if they are registered as different breeds. I personally have never cross bred White Swiss Shepherd Dogs with GSD's or vice versa, and think if breeders are serious about separation & want the member bodies to take them seriously, they should cease this practice as well.

In my opinion, when acceptance into the breed happens (i.e; local lines are accepted into the breed via (for example) a development register), only then should integration with registered stock occur.

Edited March 8, 2012 by EISHUND

[BJean]

Regarding WSSD, when they are assessed & accepted overseas by countries still developing the breed with open stud books, they are registered with no pedigree acknowledged, just the individual dog itself is registered. I know this, as 'White Shepherd' pups of my own have been re-registered overseas. (Previous to me becoming an ANKC breeder after the WSSD was recognised in Australia). Any questions regarding my choices should be answered on the about page of my website www.eishund.com (it's very out of date, but you'll get the gist)

Yes this is how dogs from Turkey are registered in France, and to varying degrees dogs from Turkey with the AKC in USA.

I think it's a difficult one the WSSD, as although developed separately, they are still genetically the same as another recognised breed, having descended directly from it. However, now that they are separated, it is classed as cross-breeding, and rightly so if they are registered as different breeds. I personally have never cross bred White Swiss Shepherd Dogs with GSD's or vice versa, and think if breeders are serious about separation & want the member bodies to take them seriously, they should cease this practice as well.

In my opinion, when acceptance into the breed happens (i.e; local lines are accepted into the breed via (for example) a development register), only then should integration with registered stock occur.

The problem when one breed is the recent adjunct from another established breed (ie: when a colour type within a breed, is classified as a breed) is that the breed differentiation struggles to be meaningful.

Even though some CC's may classify the breed as a distinct, the breed's real delineation remains the ethos of breeders. If the breed delineation was real, there would be a clear visual differentiation also.

I don't believe such breed delineation (as recently exampled by the ANKC Kangal), remains stable over time.

What is regarded as cross breeding depends entirely on the CC politics of the day.

Ex: From 1998 - 2011 Anatolian and Kangal were separate breeds in Australia.

As of Jan 1, 2012, Both breeds are now regarded as one breed, and 'cross bred' litters are being registered.

I was once rebuked in earnest as to why Anatolian and Kangal are not the same breed:

"If Anatolian and Kangal are the same, why does ANKC register them as two separate breeds?"

I could not begin to explain ... so I just smiled and said, "Yes, okay."

I do not know WSS or GSDs, so have no informed comments on the WSS and white GSD breed delineation process

However, what became apparent with ANKC Kangal, was the ANKC and breeders within the ANKC, cannot determine breed parameters of their own accord - other than breed parameters for breeds where the country of origin is Australia.

A lot can happen within a breed and its parent breed over the years. I do not think the ultimate result of WSS and GSD is determined at this time :)

Edited March 8, 2012 by lilli

[Wazzat Xolo]

Yes for ex: dog from Turkey goes to USA, then offspring from the same dog is imported to Australa with an AKC pedigree.

I did that last year, had a bitch in whelp moved to a cat4 country so I could get what I needed, its not a new rule, but a way to get a dog from a Cat 6 country that are not allowed in Aus from direct import.

No, it is not the same thing :)

Previously, a dog had to have a complete three generation pedigree AND all dogs in that pedigree to be from ANKC recognised CCs.

Now dogs can be imported and registered with the ANKC, as long as the dog's pedigree is issued by an ANKC recognised CC.

Without a pedigree issued by an ANKC recognised CC, dogs from countries where there is no ANKC recognised CC (ie: Turkey) cannot be re-registered by the ANKC.

This is independent to the AQIS process that requires the dog to live in a category 4 country for 7 to 9 months before arriving in Australia.

dogs still need a three generation pedigree I believe, well thats what I have been lead to believe and that was last year with another dog I was looking to import. But I will check this out.