Weasels Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Ahhh teenagers :rolleyes: :laugh: All I have to add is to learn to read his body language early. He'll let you know when he's about to play up, you just have to look close and act quick! :p I will definitely try the meet in drop or stay in drop when dogs come in the park Just IMHO, but I wouldn't be comfortable with this at all It would put my dog in a very vulnerable position, plus if he decided he had to break the stay to get away from the new dog quickly it would weaken his down-stay. I don't have the same problems as the OP but that's just my $0.02. At home in the kitchen is probably a 1 out of 10 on the distraction scale. A dog park with dogs he seems to target is probably a 9 or 10 out of 10.You say you've got your at home recall under control, have a think about a 2/10 distraction and work on that. Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, so put him on a long line if you have any doubt he could fail. Every time he manages to fail is putting you back weeks of work to fix this. Once you're completely confident that he will come 100% of the time, start working on your 3/10 distractions and so on. Edited March 16, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 I am starting to become confused now.. He is usually below other dogs when he meets anyway. He is submissive and usually approaches in a lower position, sometimes he even does the army belly crawl up to a dog to say hi... This is where it all goes pear shaped if it is going to. He keeps trying to lick the other dogs face...Most dogs don't seem to care and just run and play, then so does he... No issue...and he does not do it again to these dogs... Occasionally there is a dog who reacts, so he leaves it but then comes back and tries again and again to get their attention. The more they ignore him the worse he becomes. Originally I could call him out and he would come. Then he just stopped recalling. So I worked more on the leave it command and that seems to work but I do see what everyone means about needing effective recall.. We will work on it and hopefully he will be able to go back to the park and play nicely and recall when asked to... Well that is the dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) I am starting to become confused now.. He is usually below other dogs when he meets anyway. He is submissive and usually approaches in a lower position, sometimes he even does the army belly crawl up to a dog to say hi... This is where it all goes pear shaped if it is going to. He keeps trying to lick the other dogs face...Most dogs don't seem to care and just run and play, then so does he... No issue...and he does not do it again to these dogs... Occasionally there is a dog who reacts, so he leaves it but then comes back and tries again and again to get their attention. The more they ignore him the worse he becomes. Originally I could call him out and he would come. Then he just stopped recalling. So I worked more on the leave it command and that seems to work but I do see what everyone means about needing effective recall.. We will work on it and hopefully he will be able to go back to the park and play nicely and recall when asked to... Well that is the dream... Yep, recall is the best way to stop problems before they start :) Dogs Ziggy's age are well known for going a bit dumb, it's just a matter of working through it. From the other side, my girl is definitely one who would react negatively to the approach you describe. But it is my job as her owner to teach her an alternative behaviour to getting growly. Every time she starts getting tense about another overexuberant dog I call her back in. I know the other dog is just trying to be friendly but I also know my girl will never reciprocate so the best thing is to just call both dogs off and leave it at that. If the other owner is at least attempting to call their dog off I really appreciate it, so I think it's great you are mindful it is a potential issue and want to curb it :) Edit: re. my above comment, it wasn't the fact the dog was lying down that I was concerned about but putting it in a 'stay'. If the dog does hold the stay but is uncomfortable with the other dog it would be causing him stress, and if he broke the stay to get away from the dog it is damaging the command. But then I have more aloof dogs than most so if your dog loves all other dogs it might not be an issue Edited March 16, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Thanks Weasels. I do see your point about the stay and he is pretty good at that, so I thought OK I can use that and his leave it command for now... I absolutely call him out and I go get him... Hence the reason leaving the park at yarralumla last time we were there. There had been an issue between another staffy owned by a friend and another dog. So we went into another section of the park. As soon as we walked in a smaller dog had a go at him for saying hello (he ran up to it and i think he startled it) then the same dog had a few goes at the other staffy for chasing her ball. The other staffy ws on edge and Ziggy ws running the fence because he just wanted to go back in the other side with the bigger dogs, so I called him, caught him, put him on lead and suggested to the other staffy owner we take them somewhere quieter to play... We left... It is hard because so many people comment on how lovely he plays and it is so great to see a staffy playing so well with dogs from a large Wolfe to a 5 month old corgi pup... It is just this recall issue and his bad manners with some dogs... Edited to add... He is not a bad dog. He is not aggressive in any way... There are plenty of dogs out there worse than he is... Like I said I will keep trying with him until he gets it... I don't like it when he gets bailed so I am not immune to how others feel when he does this.. I do get him out and try to make him stop, when we went to the park I would take him to another section where the other dog ws as not and there were dogs happy to play with him.. I am starting to feel like a really, bad owner... I came here asking for help and a few gave good advice (albeit some conflicting, but I guess not everything works for every dog, so it is good to get different ideas). What I am doing is not working, that is the reason I am asking and I do appreciate all the helpful and constructive comments... Edited March 16, 2012 by Staffyluv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 You know what? I wouldn't be going to the dog park. Simple. Lots of LONGish walks , dependent on age/fitness with a few minutes training here & there along the way . NO sniffing/peeing unless he has your permission ..and a couple of breaks, where you sit on a bench /wall, and give him a couple of minutes adoration .... 2 or 3 short sharp sessions of manners education in your yard each day ..with lots of calm and honest praise for good work . make everything you say to him a chance for him to earn a reward ..don't have meaningless 'conversations' .he needs to learn that your voice = something worth listening for, not just background noise . ;) Our dogs usually only get spoken to when asked to do something, or when being praised ... so they listen attentively .:) There are lots of such occasions every day ! Do you do N I L I F ? LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) I am starting to feel like a really, bad owner... You are not a bad owner - you're chosing to do something about it ;) Give yourself a break on this one, it will take time :) Edited March 16, 2012 by Jess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 You know what? I wouldn't be going to the dog park. Simple. Lots of LONGish walks , dependent on age/fitness with a few minutes training here & there along the way . NO sniffing/peeing unless he has your permission ..and a couple of breaks, where you sit on a bench /wall, and give him a couple of minutes adoration .... 2 or 3 short sharp sessions of manners education in your yard each day ..with lots of calm and honest praise for good work . make everything you say to him a chance for him to earn a reward ..don't have meaningless 'conversations' .he needs to learn that your voice = something worth listening for, not just background noise . ;) Our dogs usually only get spoken to when asked to do something, or when being praised ... so they listen attentively .:) There are lots of such occasions every day ! Do you do N I L I F ? LINK Pers in an ideal world I would have time to do really long walks but I run my business, my late husbands business as well as my home and all the usual crap that goes on with life... I have also been fostering, which I won't be after Pippa goes as I just don't have the time to have 2 dogs... Ziggy can easily run for a couple of hours a couple of times a day and still not be that tired... Bored pups crate issues... Heis 11 months old and I would consider him really fit... One week with no dog park and he is digging the backyard up, chewing the outdoor setting etc. Walking does nothing for him and even after an hour walk he is still raring to go and do more. He likes training with me but becomes bored after about 10 to 20 minutes max and that does not wear him out either. At the moment, I am still taking him up to the leash free park here in town to run him when I think the chance of other dogs showing up is minimal. We move if they come into the park we are in and leave altogether if there are dogs in all sections... I know everyone disagrees with this but a run for a couple of hours a week as well as a good walk each morning or evening is about the minimum I can get away with him.. With life in general, I simply do not have the time to exercise him as much as he seems to need.. He is far from a lazy dog and looks for things to do, if I am not here.. I give him plenty to do with kongs while I am out with clients and frozen containers with treats inside or frozen stock blocks... Maybe I should not have bought another dog with my time constraints and training abilities but I did and he is here and I have to deal with it as best as I can... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Training tires a dog out more than just exercise - exercise alone just makes them really fit :) I also agree with pers - I wouldn't be going to the dog park either in your situation. I do a couple of training sessions throughout the day - which include tugging and other engagement activities, games I learnt in Recallers, shaping, body awareness exercises, retrieve, agility related exercises. The sessions are only short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 staffyluv, it's a bit like kids ... they can run & play at a friend's place, and come home hyped. :) :) Set them homework, or get them to follow instruction in a structured sport/activity..and they will flop afterwards. All long runs do is make the dog fitter and want more!! I agree with kavik. 10 minutes is TONS at a time ..no more . does he have a sandpit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Staffyluv - this just popped up in my FB feed and I thought of you :) - Become more exciting than a squirrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Thanks Weasels, I didn't see you post before but I will have a read later today. This dog is driving me insane... He is picking on the pup, he won't do anything that is asked of him (yes I had a lead on him most of the day yesterday as I am concerned about his really rough play with the Pippa)... He is chewing my outdoor setting when left alone. The last 2 days we have had 5 ten to fifteen minute training sessions (you get to the 15 minutes and he really can't be bothered) and a 45 minute walk morning and ball chasing in the yard for about the same time in the afternoon... It is like he is bored out of his brain and is just looking for something to occupy him... He is digging more than ever the last few days and now he is digging in spots that he is not allowed to dig (he has a spot up the back of the yard with dirt where he is allowed to move it around and that has worked up to now)... What is wrong with him - he is actually getting worse, not better?? Or is it me?? I call him and he looks at me and just ignores me completely, I tell him to sit and he just walks away (if he is on lead I can make him sit but then he gets back up again immediately, so I make him sit again).. Pippa is at least getting some unconventional training - she watches him and copies what he is doing.. Her stay is pretty amazing for a pup that has not really been taught this.. Even if she is sitting and I say stay, she lays down and just stays there... Back to the boofhead - I will call the training club again (I have called them 3 times and left messages and still no one has contacted me) as I really don't think I can do this on my own especially now he is not running off steam at the park... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I think if you are concerned about escalating problems.. you need a 1: 1 session with a good recommended trainer or behaviourist , like K9 pro , or maybe someone on D O L has used someone in your area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I agree with P - I would be having a one on one consult at this point over attending a training club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 I think if you are concerned about escalating problems.. you need a 1: 1 session with a good recommended trainer or behaviourist , like K9 pro , or maybe someone on D O L has used someone in your area? Yes someone was recommended but I just don't really have the funds for a one on one trainer at the moment, hence the reason for contacting the local dog club.. I will call her and just try to make ends meet another way - I love this boy to bits and when he is good, he is really good but when he is being naughty, he is horrid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Although he's realistically just sounding like a normal teen boy dog, I think some relationship building, along with exercise, will help :) Firstly, if you think he really needs off leash time, try going to one of the dog parks early in the morning (yes unfortunately it will be dark, bring a torch) when no-one else is there. On weekends it is rare to find people there before about 8am. If you have time on weekdays they are often free during the day, and if you go to one with more than one section (Yarralumla, Casey) they have two areas to choose from. Walk around, throw toys, play some tug, walk some more, practice some recalls, etc. If he is getting bored of training you need to liven it up for him! Intersperse commands with lots of play. I give a toy or tug as a reward, and my dog loves to play keepaway, so I chase her and pretend to try and get a hold of the item (some people would shake their fingers at me for doing this but I don't care). Spinning and hand touches are very rewarding for her so I do lots of those. I try to get her to do things as quickly as possible and reward by throwing food either in the air or along the ground for her to chase. I might reward a recall with a piece of food or I might reward it by running in the opposite direction making squeaky noises then falling to the ground and letting her lick my face... ok, sounds weird, but this all builds a strong relationship. Just keep in mind your dog's temperament, I can pretty much do anything as my dog is not dominant towards me, so just tone it down to suit your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 OK we now have an appointment with a trainer coming to the house to assess him and talk about her training classes. She sounded really positive when I explained about the issues I was having and said that Ziggy is behaving like a typical teenager. She also said of course he is bored, if he was running a few times a week and now he is not but without good recall, I have done the right thing keeping him out of the park. We also talked about him being 'over friendly' and 'pushy' with shy dogs and she said that we will work on all of that. I feel much better now that I have the appointment next Tuesday here at home so she can see him in his own environment (she is going to bring a couple of her dogs as well).. She is going to assess him here and then decide if we need more one on one or we can go straight to her classes (which she is taking names for the next round now). Thanks wuffles, lots of ideas and believe it or not we do break training with a ball throw here and there (ball chasing is his fave at the moment, last week it was tug with a rope toy).. He is not a face licker and not dominant at all, so never tries to get over me at all with anything. The chasing him sounds like a good idea - he loves to run and if I turn it around on him, I am pretty sure he will like that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 I have been spending more one on one time with him and I think, dare I say it, he is actually listening to me.. Today he was back to his old self and bringing me things to get my attention.. He wanted to play ball and he bought it back every time. His stays even improved up to a point where he seemed to become bored, so we stopped and played ball, then did another five minutes of stays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Is this Heike? She's lovely and was very helpful with Elbie when he was a young pup :) Good luck!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Is this Heike? She's lovely and was very helpful with Elbie when he was a young pup :) Good luck!! Yep and she spoke to me for about an hour on the phone when I called for the appointment making suggestions on things I could do between now and Tuesday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Well we were lucky enough to have a great trainer come to us and spend a couple of hours this morning... It is not him, it's me... She was surprised by just how responsive he was and what great manners he does have... There are a couple of issues that need to be worked on but it is mainly my methods - he was so responsive when she showed me the 'right' way to do things. To get him to come (and he came back every time even with one of her dogs there)... She still thinks he needs to stay out of bigger groups of dogs for now... But she is happy for me to take him to the park when there are not so many dogs around to practice - if he does not come when called, we leave immediately.. Like she said, he is not a danger but he could put himself in danger because of his actions towards other dogs when they don't want to play and he does (his persistence will get him into trouble)... We have a few things to work on over the next 3-4 weeks on our own (but we can contact her via phone or email and she is happy to come back earlier if needed)... We will be joining her training group here in Canberra at the next round of classes and we are going to have a couple more one on one sessions in between. I feel so positive after today and such relief that one day soon he will be a calmer about playing, so everyone enjoys it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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