Ziggy's Training -not Responding To Me

[Cosmolo]

Tht length of class is far too long.

What is he doing while waiting for his turn? What does he do when he is arriving for class and before leaving?

I think the way classes start and finish is super important which is why ours start with Nina Ottusson problem solving toys (by week two, dogs and owners make a beeline for the games not each other) and massage at the end so that the dogs finish calmly and relax with their owners which i believe aids learning.

[Jumabaar]

I dont bother working my dogs once if they are hot in any way shape or form. They are generally just make a heap of mistakes and we get nowhere.

Also it may be a 'fitness' issues now that the days are getting warmer and you are asking more time wise than you do during the week. As soon as he gets tired mentally or physically he is going to start acting out a bit and not be as interested in rewards.

[Staffyluv]

The dogs wait in the car while we all chat about what we are doing. Not for long, maybe 5 to 10 minutes depends really on what we are discussing.

We work with our own dog in the group. So we do the exercises and our trainer comes around and sees how we are going. We do group exercises like keeping the dogs focused on us while other dogs walk by at different distances (just an example)?

The dogs wait with us while she explains what we are doing next.

Then we go onto the next exercise.

We usually only work on a couple of things in each lesson..

When they finish we put them in the car and we leave....

It's pretty relaxed and she spends lots of time with each of us but when she isn't it is just us and our own dog practicing each command.

Just getting him to sit, stand or lay by my side if we have been there for 45 minutes is near impossible... He just wants to say hello to the other dogs.

Unfortunately this group of dogs are all a bit iffy with other dogs, so he can't say hello to any of them. The last group, we only had one that we had to give space but this group, it's all of them...

I think you have all hit the nail on the head, the class is just to long for him.

I am going to take him home once he starts to disengage from the activity...

Like I said before, he came home yesterday and slept the whole afternoon... He was exhausted..

[Kavik]

Why don't you end on a high and finish before he gets too tired?

[Staffyluv]

Why don't you end on a high and finish before he gets too tired?

I think I will from now on..

I am going to talk to the trainer about finishing before he gets to that stage, where he has lost focus...

I think that will work out better for both him and I because he will still get his training in and I won't get frustrated with him when he stops focusing on me and just wants the other dogs...

[FalconRange]

You could also consider crating him/putting him in the car when it isn't your turn to do something. This way, he gets lots of short bouts of training with lots of rest in between.

[Staffyluv]

You could also consider crating him/putting him in the car when it isn't your turn to do something. This way, he gets lots of short bouts of training with lots of rest in between.

Thanks, we do put him in the car if he is being a bit difficult - give him a bit of time out..

But we don't really have 'turns' at things - it is not really obedience training. With sit, stay, drop (although we do do those things) - it's more dealing with issues we have with our dogs that create problems. DA dogs, full on dogs, shy dogs..

This trainer deals with dogs with issues in small groups or solo sessions.

We started with her because I was having trouble with his recall - which is much better but definitely not where I want it to be yet, so we are still seeing her..

We mainly work on getting the dog to focus on us, follow us and methods of keeping the dog calm, so we can walk away from it and it is happy to wait until we return, improve recall.. It is all pretty basic stuff.

She trains the trainer - she spends as much time teaching us as we do with the dogs exercises.

With the issues our dogs have, most of it comes from how they react to what we are doing - that is why she has some in groups and others are on their own, just with her. We had a solo session and she suggested the group training.

It's amazing to watch her with her own dogs - they are so well trained.

[megan_]

You need to stop before he starts disengaging (which is really hard, because when they're working well it is very tempting to continue). You need to do this so that:

i) He wants to train more (if you finish something while you still love it, you want it more)

ii) He doesn't learn that disengaging = I don't have to work anymore.

An alternative is to take along a crate and crate him when he isn't working. It would look something like this:

* Arrive and crate him. Learn what you're doing, chat etc.

* Take him out, warm him up and work him. Stop long before he is bored.

* Put him back in the crate, learn more, decide what you're doing next then out of the crate to work.

This way you won't miss out on learning stuff and he won't get bored.

It is good for him to be in a class of "iffy" dogs and not be allowed to say hello to them. It helps him learn that he can't say hello to every dog he meets and you are in charge of who he greets. I don't let my friendly boy say hello to dogs at school - we are there to "work", he has plenty of social time in other settings. Note that when I say "work" I mean have lots of fun training together.

If he is more interested in other dogs than you then you really need to build up your reward value. Do you ever play with him? I mean tug, run around like a crazy person, even wrestle him? He needs to see that working with you is more fun that saying hello to other dogs. The sad fact is that, for most owners, that isn't the case because they don't actually play with their dogs. They're even boring when giving treats to them ("good" in monotone voice, treat). Start playing with him at home and build from there. Talk to him when training, tell him how good he is. Squeal with delight when he gets something right in a happy, sing-song voice. Praise him like he has won Olympic gold. Mix up rewards (toys, tug, treats). Help build anticipation of a reward.

I might be a good idea to teach him something like "Look at That" (LAT). There are threads here explaining how to train it.

[Staffyluv]

You need to stop before he starts disengaging (which is really hard, because when they're working well it is very tempting to continue). You need to do this so that:

i) He wants to train more (if you finish something while you still love it, you want it more)

ii) He doesn't learn that disengaging = I don't have to work anymore.

An alternative is to take along a crate and crate him when he isn't working. It would look something like this:

* Arrive and crate him. Learn what you're doing, chat etc.

* Take him out, warm him up and work him. Stop long before he is bored.

* Put him back in the crate, learn more, decide what you're doing next then out of the crate to work.

This way you won't miss out on learning stuff and he won't get bored.

It is good for him to be in a class of "iffy" dogs and not be allowed to say hello to them. It helps him learn that he can't say hello to every dog he meets and you are in charge of who he greets. I don't let my friendly boy say hello to dogs at school - we are there to "work", he has plenty of social time in other settings. Note that when I say "work" I mean have lots of fun training together.

If he is more interested in other dogs than you then you really need to build up your reward value. Do you ever play with him? I mean tug, run around like a crazy person, even wrestle him? He needs to see that working with you is more fun that saying hello to other dogs. The sad fact is that, for most owners, that isn't the case because they don't actually play with their dogs. They're even boring when giving treats to them ("good" in monotone voice, treat). Start playing with him at home and build from there. Talk to him when training, tell him how good he is. Squeal with delight when he gets something right in a happy, sing-song voice. Praise him like he has won Olympic gold. Mix up rewards (toys, tug, treats). Help build anticipation of a reward.

I might be a good idea to teach him something like "Look at That" (LAT). There are threads here explaining how to train it.

I am lucky as I work from home, so yes, we play and train at home quite a bit.

We play and walk first thing each morning.

We do simple training things while getting breakfast and dinner, waiting, look at me, sit, dropping etc.

We have a two or three 5-10 minute training sessions through the day with recall and basics and this is mixed up with ball throwing, catching and ends with tug toy and/or ball fetching (which is his fave thing).

He has all these things down pat at home - put him in any other environment and he is great for a little while and then he loses interest and only wants to be with the other dogs. He pulls towards them, does backflips on lead trying to get off when he is really bad and sooks. I will put him in the car at the first sign of this now. But when you bring him back out, he is good for a minute and goes straight back to unwanted behaviour.

He is not food motivated at all - he shows very little interest in food (even treats are left for other dogs).. He leaves his food for ages before eating it and then only eats a bit, he has never finished a meal since we had him. If other dogs have food, he doesn't care. If other people offer him food, he doesn't take it - we have tried everything from shark cartilage, carob buttons, kibble, yogurt buttons, dried liver, dried chicken, dried roo, cheese, turkey (you get my drift - he doesn't care about food).

He gets a chicken carcass or a few chicken necks for breaky and a barf patty for dinner (or equal to a barf patty and veg if I make it).

Treat wise, he gets a 10cm or so brisket bone a couple of times a week as well as his training treats (we use cheese and turkey most of the time as it seems to be the most interesting to him)

The only time I am more important than other dogs is when I say, lets go and walk away - he comes running after me.. But I think this is only because he doesn't want me to leave him behind.

He is quite ball motivated but even this is wearing thin. He would rather play with it than train with it.

I used to be able to distract him with a clicker - he pays no attention to the clicker at all now if there are other dogs around.

I don't allow him to say hello to every dog he sees (we even stopped going to the dog park - I did last weekend just to test his recall and how we were going with it).

I put him on the other side of me so I am between him and other dogs but he is strong and sometimes gets around me to get closer to them. We have tried a halti and even the trainer said, some dogs deal with them and he is not one of them - he scratched his muzzle so bad before we could get it off that it bled and I will never put one on him again.

We do use a lupi halter that seems to work great for his pulling on lead - but you can't train in one, it is really only for walking him without him pulling.

What we are doing is working - albeit very slowly.

I guess I should be more patient - but I wonder if it is the training methods I am using and not the dog.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean our trainer, I mean me and the way I deliver it - maybe he needs a more restricted obedience class with a more formal feel to it??

This is our second lot of classes with our trainer, so I will see how we go this second time around. Hopefully he will start to settle.

It's funny - I watch the other owners and their dogs sit in front of them or beside them and stare at their owners. All Zig does is pull on the lead toward whatever dog is near him.

We have tried standing 10 metres outside the circle and he still just pulls towards the other dogs and they all sit there looking at their owners.

I wish I had the same effect on him as the other owners have on their dogs.. I think this is what frustrates me more than anything - it is just like he does not value me at all when there are other dogs around..

[Cosmolo]

If he was mine, he wouldn't be getting any food from a bowl (ie for free) for at least a few weeks. Food is the easiest thing to increase value for as all dogs need to eat.

I find sometimes with dogs like this, getting them excited can make them worse- if there is no focus, that excitement tends to be continully directed at the thing they are already reacting to.

You need to put him away well before he has lost it and is lunging at the other dogs- at this point it's too late.

Why can't you use a lupi halter for training? What do you do when he pulls on the lead toward the other dogs?

[Staffyluv]

Cos, if he pulls towards other dogs I walk him away in the opposite direction. He is mostly compliant but will turn to look back.

I use the let's go command and walk away quickly.

He gets a chicken carcass for breaky and a barf patty for dinner, I can't really keep these in my pocket to hand feed them.

He gets a bit of kibble but nowhere near what he used to and it is only in his kong with a teaspoon of peanut butter or cottage cheese as a treat a couple of times a week and he usually gets this if I am going out to keep him busy.

All other food does come directly from me in the form of training tidbits. The only think I have found that gets his attention at all is turkey meat and sometimes cheese.. But it is not an effective tool. I have not given him dinner or breaky and taken him to training and he is stil not really interested in the treats..

When he acts up, we go away from the other dogs, as he calms we come closer. If he starts pulling, we go further away.

This in itself is an issue as I can't hear the trainer for most of the lesson because we need to stand at least 10 metres away from the other dogs. She does spend one on one time with us though.

After 2 months of training and doing the same thing, you would think he would get it but he just seems to go blank at a certain stage and nothing brings him back.

I have tried a really stern NO and a growl but this shuts him down. He drops to the ground and honestly you would think I had just kicked the crap out of him..

Sometimes I wish I knew his history and what it was like for him before I got him.it might make it easier to deal with him.

He is not a bad dog, he can be a really lovely boy and he is attached to me because if he thinks I am leaving, he runs after me.. If I open the car door, he is straight in.

But he is not a cuddly dog, he doesn't show much affection to anyone. He doesn't like to be patted along his body at all. He likes the top of his head patted and his ears and neck but even then, he will only stand patting for a couple of minutes before going away.

But he will play ball all day.. As long as you want to play he will play..

[Staffyluv]

The length of the Lupi harness and the lead together are to long to use at training. It I guess if I bought a shorter training lead, I could..

I find that it really only controls him pulling and I can't 'steer' him in any particular direction or get his attention with it where his flat collar and lead, I can give a tug on the lead and he will look at me to see what next.

[Kavik]

Susan Garrett uses cut up raw chicken necks and dried fish as treats for training (not sure how practical that is for you :laugh: ). Some of her dogs are not as keen on food. My guys love food, it does make things easier, I normally use cheese as treats.

If he loves the ball so much I would use it as a reward for training, no free fetch sessions.

[Staffyluv]

Kav, I never even considered no free fetch sessions - what a great idea...

I have that dried fish here and it has been in the dog drawer since the first time I opened it - the smell is so bad that I was heaving when I opened the packet, so that one is a no go for me (I don't care how much he likes it)..

Chicken necks might be OK to - I will start the no food unless from me on Saturday (way to busy this week with work to organise the food into bits that I can carry around).

[sheena]

Staffyluv...have you been keeping an eye in this thread Exercising Reactive dogs. I think a lot of what is being talked about in this thread could very well apply to & your situation. It's not just about dogs being agressive, it's also about dogs like mine who are motion reactive & lunge at other dogs (especially little ones). My dog would never hurt a fly, but her reactiveness to other dogs in motion & SWF's has been a HUGE training problem with her. I have overcome that by teaching her the LAT game. It is an ongoing thing, which I have to revisit for a few minutes, every time we go to training or a trial, but the difference is amazing. 12 months ago I had problems keeping her in the ring if another dog was running, now thanks to LAT, she is in Masters & knocking off the "Q"s one after the other. Learn how to correctly use the clicker, reintroduce it to her....get her really motivated (my girl will die for the clicker), then try the LAT. But first you must learn to use the clicker correctly, otherwise you are sending the wrong message to your dog. Have a read of that link & a lot of us talk about it in there :)

[Staffyluv]

Staffyluv...have you been keeping an eye in this thread Exercising Reactive dogs. I think a lot of what is being talked about in this thread could very well apply to & your situation. It's not just about dogs being agressive, it's also about dogs like mine who are motion reactive & lunge at other dogs (especially little ones). My dog would never hurt a fly, but her reactiveness to other dogs in motion & SWF's has been a HUGE training problem with her. I have overcome that by teaching her the LAT game. It is an ongoing thing, which I have to revisit for a few minutes, every time we go to training or a trial, but the difference is amazing. 12 months ago I had problems keeping her in the ring if another dog was running, now thanks to LAT, she is in Masters & knocking off the "Q"s one after the other. Learn how to correctly use the clicker, reintroduce it to her....get her really motivated (my girl will die for the clicker), then try the LAT. But first you must learn to use the clicker correctly, otherwise you are sending the wrong message to your dog. Have a read of that link & a lot of us talk about it in there :)

Thanks Sheena but no I haven't read it.. I will now though.

Ziggy is not aggressive at all, in fact he seems to vary his play style depending on who he is playing with.

He can play with little pups and great big dogs..

But he is definitely reactive - towards other dogs.

I started with a clicker but it didn't take long for him to ignore it once we started at training with other dogs around..

I will have a read of the whole thread tonight, thanks for letting me know.

[sheena]

I would say, he IS reactive...not in an agressive way, but if he is being distracted by other dogs & other things & want to "go play" with the other dogs to the extent where you don't exist, then he IS being reactive. My girl is "motion reactive" ie, she has to react to anything in motion, being that another dog running, a kid on a skateboard, or someone else playing with their dog at training. She is not agressive, but she sure is reactive. She can walk past a SWF if it is sitting quitely, but if the SWF lunges at her (which they often do), then she will react & pull my shoulder out. A clicker is not used as a distracion, it is used as a "marker" of very tiny steps the dog may do, so that it "shapes" a certain good behaviour. Learn to use the clicker (which is ALWAYS followed by a treat) & then start out by teaching her some simple tricks. Within no time, you will have her hooked & you will be able to teach her anything. Last week, in less than 5 minutes & half a handful of treats (they wern't even yummy ones) I shaped my girl to go to the mat, lie down & stay there until released...she even tossed in crossed paws as well. All done just by using the clicker...no voice, no body cues & no luring

[Skye GSD]

If he is ball mad then I would suggest buying a magnetic ball from K9Pro and attaching (by pinning the spare magnet) on your left shoulder. Use this as your training aid by tugging in class or a training scenario and with the use of a long line, you can play fetch. Skye was neither food nor toy/ball driven in a class situation but found the "button" with a flirt pole and tugging. It has taken 12 months but we are now back in to a class situation and training with tug/magnetic ball and food around other dogs. If she does lose focus then I up the reward system with tugging. She is also trained to retrieve the ball or tug from my shoulder but only after completing known commands and being released to get her "reward". Ziggy is only 11 months old so I wouldn't be expecting total focus in a one hour class let alone a two hour one.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Skye GSD

[Staffyluv]

I would say, he IS reactive...not in an agressive way, but if he is being distracted by other dogs & other things & want to "go play" with the other dogs to the extent where you don't exist, then he IS being reactive. My girl is "motion reactive" ie, she has to react to anything in motion, being that another dog running, a kid on a skateboard, or someone else playing with their dog at training. She is not agressive, but she sure is reactive. She can walk past a SWF if it is sitting quitely, but if the SWF lunges at her (which they often do), then she will react & pull my shoulder out. A clicker is not used as a distracion, it is used as a "marker" of very tiny steps the dog may do, so that it "shapes" a certain good behaviour. Learn to use the clicker (which is ALWAYS followed by a treat) & then start out by teaching her some simple tricks. Within no time, you will have her hooked & you will be able to teach her anything. Last week, in less than 5 minutes & half a handful of treats (they wern't even yummy ones) I shaped my girl to go to the mat, lie down & stay there until released...she even tossed in crossed paws as well. All done just by using the clicker...no voice, no body cues & no luring

We used to use a clicker when we first started training but because there is no real treat, other than a ball, he soon just ignored the click ( we have tried everything from carob buttons, yoghurt buttons, dried shark cartilidge, liver treats, cheese, cold meats, BBQ chicken and chopped up chicken necks... He will stop for a treat the first or second command and then he doesn't want it. We even dropped a heap of treats on the ground and he just sat there looking at them...

In better news, we missed training last week, so I was a bit worried about today. He was fine for the most part and quite responsive.. Every time he did what he was asked he got his ball... The ball seems to be his thing and I think I am just going to have to learn how to use it as a training tool..

He has lots of normal tennis balls but for training we have a squeaky one and he is mad for it... He only gets the squeaky ball at training...

He is still pretty focused on e other dogs and our trainer gave me one of her dogs to work with while she did some work with Ziggy to see if he would do better with her... Nope, he reacted the same way...

We finished the lesson earlier and went for a bit of a walk and played with his other tennis ball..

When he does something good, he likes me to throw the ball up. So he can catch it.. Then he does this roll over or jump thing with the ball, like he is so stoked to have it...

I know we will get there, it's just gonna take some time..

[Staffyluv]

A really good training session today.

We only stayed for about an hour and he was great... I noticed he started looking around a bit, so we called it quits...

We came home on a high...

To top it off, I have a friend who has a lab cross poodle and she wants to socialise her so she bought her over for a play date with Ziggy.

They met on lead, went for a short walk together before we let them play and the play was really appropriate. Ziggy came every time I called him, he even sat and dropped while the other dog was there..

Two giant steps forward this week.. Feeling really good.

The poor boy is totally buggered now though..