Staffyluv Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) Ziggy is an 11 month old staffy cross that I have had since the beginning of November last year. At first he was scared of everything but with love, training and reassurance he has developed into a great little guy. His recall at off leash parks has (up until the last week) been awesome... He sits, stays and fetches... My problem is this: He has developed this behaviour of being really pushy with very shy dogs. He is in their faces non stop and no matter how many times leash him and walk him away as soon as I let him off again he makes a bee line for the shy or frightened dog... And he won't come when called... I don't just let him do it. I get him and leash him as it is obviously distressing to the other dog. He is not hurting them, he just gets under their chin and tries to lick them constantly... Until I leash him and take him to another part of the park but when I let him off again, once he seems to have calmed again, he goes right back.. Any suggestions welcome.. Thanks in advance Edited September 9, 2012 by Staffyluv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Maybe practice some LAT (Look at that or Look at Me) and recall training away from the dog park and don't take him there until you can keep his focus under distraction. Then start going places where you can judge what his reactive distance is and still keep his focus on you. Keep moving closer until you know he will listen and focus on you rather than the other dogs. I won't kid you it is a LOT of work but sounds like he needs it. I've seen a lot of staffy type dogs exhibit similar behaviours. They just don't seem to get it that some dogs want S P A C E. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 That is it in a nut shell Ams... He just does not get that this is not nice... He only does it to the insecure dog.. Apart form this with these dogs, he is great at the park... Most people comment on how great he is.. He plays really appropriately with big dogs, puppies of all ages and sizes and even old dogs (he seems to realise he can't be rough or pushy with other dogs).. But the poor insecure dogs, he is just in their faces so bad... It happens with Lando when we go to one dog park and he did it with a big black dog today.. today he would not even respond to 'leave it'... But yet the other staffy and the little foxie were great... He was very good, even watching where he was running so he did not go over the foxie (mind you he and the other staffy were happy to run shoulder to shoulder and over each other sharing the ball together)... Thanks for the advice, I will work on him being more responsive to me and look at me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussienot Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I had the same problem with one of my daycare dogs. Also a submissive Staffy cross. She would obsessively face lick insecure dogs, the very dogs who really did not want her fawning, in your face submission. With most dogs she was fine, with bigger dogs she was fine; but there were two or three smaller dogs that she bothered to the brink of triggering a fight. There was no aggression in her, but it could cause aggression from other dogs. I couldn't solve it with positive methods alone. I tried, but couldn't put the time into watching her every second. So I did have to resort to saying NO and using body language to move her away for the other dog. I also taught her a really reliable whistle recall, and before long I could just whistle to stop her. I didn't really solve her problem, just trained a way to divert her. I also found that if I put her on the treadmill for half an hour when she arrived, she was less likely to go into the face licking obsession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Thanks for that... He only does it to bigger dogs than him. I usually take him to the park after a half hour walk or about a half hour before the others are coming... He is very excited to see the other dogs.. We always have fosters here so it's not like he does not have enough doggie contact... I think working on his recall will be beneficial and also his leave it command... He is clicker trained so I MIT take his clicker and see if that helps with the recalling.. But I guess I will need a whistle for when he is further away. I try to get between him and the dog today to get him away but he just would not back off. I did resort to leaving the park, which was such a shame as he was being so good with the other dogs... But I don't like him being rude to other dogs, especially those dogs that do have issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 OK each day at home since tuesday I have been doing a lot of stays and at home he is great. I am the centre of attention and can pretty well get him to do what I want. So off we go to the dog park this afternoon and he was walking with me and sitting when asked, coming when asked.. Until... Another dog turned up.. Then nothing... He won't come when called, not even for treats or toys or me... It's like he forgets it all as soon as another dog turns up... I even took the clicker and he did turn and look at me once when I clicked but went to the dog rather than come for the treat.. So my new question is.. How do you recall a dog that does not care about toys, treats or me anymore... Needless to say, once I got him, he was leashed and I walked him around the park trying to regain his attention. After half an hour, we left as it was pretty obvious that he was focused on the dogs and not me... I do recall someone givingme the name of a trainer here in Canberra or Queanbeyan but I can't remember the name There are so many on the Internet that I don't just want to end up somewhere like bark busters... Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I do recall someone givingme the name of a trainer here in Canberra or Queanbeyan but I can't remember the name There are so many on the Internet that I don't just want to end up somewhere like bark busters... Thanks in advance Heike Hahner?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Suzanne Clothier talks about a canine behaviour she calls "obnoxious submission". The body language is submissive but the dog pushes boundaries and is just plain pushy. This sounds like that behaviour to me. It does sound somewhat like he's pushing boundaries with dogs he considers to be low threat. He'd not be given ANY opportunity for offleash play if he were mine. If he does it to a fear aggressive dog, my best guess is he won't take an aggressive response lying down. Yep, see a trainer. Sounds like he's giving you the middle finger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 I do recall someone givingme the name of a trainer here in Canberra or Queanbeyan but I can't remember the name There are so many on the Internet that I don't just want to end up somewhere like bark busters... Thanks in advance Heike Hahner?? Yep that is her, thanks... TW, if told off he leaves no problem and to date has never had a go back at an y dog that puts him in his place... I will be calling the trainer first thing tomorrow... I don't think it is him giving me the middle finger, it is almost like he gets so excited to see the other dogs that he just goes... Whereas before I could call him back and he would come first time.. It is just like he has forgotten his manners as he was always really good before. Everyone at the park used to comment on what a good boy he was... I was wondering if having fosters come and go has derailed him somewhat, as each foster is different with different issues and different training needs... I might take a break from fostering and concentrate just on him for a while as when it was just us, that is when he seemed so focused on me and not the dogs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 By the sounds of your posts he has simply gained confidence. Further recall training is required with distractions. I have a multiple dog household, and know just how difficult it can be to focus/train/FULLY CONCENTRATE on one dog. You foster? Good on ya!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 why is your dog off lead in the first place if he has no recall under distraction? Of course he's going to run off there is no consequence to him not listening, and by the time you do implement one of taking him away he's already got away with it. Keep him on lead and work on his focus in the dog park, no playing with other dogs until he's better mannered and listens to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 why is your dog off lead in the first place if he has no recall under distraction? Of course he's going to run off there is no consequence to him not listening, and by the time you do implement one of taking him away he's already got away with it. Keep him on lead and work on his focus in the dog park, no playing with other dogs until he's better mannered and listens to you. He is off lead to have a good run and play at the enclosed dog park... This behaviour has only just started... He is removed as soon as I get him, if he annoys another dog... I would not want someone's dog doing it to my dog and I thought I was doing the right thing by trying again when he appeared to have picked up his manners again at home and when we first got to the park... The other day, I had him on lead at the park at first and he was really good... He seems to lose focus when there is another dog around... I was just after some ideas on how to get his focus back on me... I had tried treats, toys and calling him but it didn't work the other day... However be came back the first time I called him today.. Today he was really good, he came back to me when I called him most times, there was once when I had to call him a few times but he did come back.. I would love perfect recall with him... I know it is all time and training. The difference today being went for a really good walk and did some training (sits, stays) before we went to the park... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nawnim Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) ... Edited June 1, 2012 by padraic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Staffyluv Try to prevent it starting ie if you see a new dog coming or a trigger dog, catch yours immediately. Don't let him get so far away from you that you'd need a whistle either - not till he's better. I find my dog's long recalls are better if I've been doing lots of close recalls, especially at the start of the walk - ie keeping her close to me. It's easier for her to recall from 3m to 5m than from 20m with the treat lady in sight (evil woman who feeds all the dogs at our park). My dog spends the entire time the treat lady is at the park - on lead - cos neither of them have any self control. Them's the breaks when the distractions are too high for the dog to respond. Then it's all about managing the distractions and building up to good response again. But you have to put your dog on lead to do that. Just try to get in first. Ie don't let him off if you can see a distraction, and catch him before he spots any new distractions approaching. PS I find getting my dog to hold a drop when greeting new dogs can help her frame of mind. Though she usually volunteers this. Edited March 13, 2012 by Mrs Rusty Bucket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Hi, I own one of the dogs that Ziggy was interacting with at the dog park, and she was not happy with the two staffies. I am not sure which was which but she told one of them off for getting too close. She also got barrelled by one of them. I then took her to a different area where there were two little dogs (and no balls) and she seemed happy enough there. She has been treated this way by staffies before and she is wary. She is only 10 kilos and she doesn't like being barged into or knocked over by a dog at least twice her weight which I have to respect. She generally ignores other dogs. All she wants to do is chase balls. I have thought of not taking her to dog parks any more. She can chase balls by herself. I don't want to sound critical of the staffies. I think different breeds play different ways. In my other life I had boxers and boxers play really well with staffies and rotties. They just barge into each other and all seem to enjoy it. Perhaps it's just not a good idea expecting such different types of dogs to play well together. :) I would be interested to know what Heike has to say about it. PD Was your dog the dog that had a go at the pup for getting the ball and a go at the female staffy who had her own ball? And then you walked the 2 of yours down the back? I think I remember you and your dogs. We weren't there long that day because of the female staffy as you know. The female staffy was an issue and the reason I suggested her owner take her home. I went to so that she would have someone to play with. As Ziggy is submissive and happy to let the other dig have the toys and balls. You are right it was not a good mix of dogs that day but previous to that day we have never had an issue at that park on a Sunday outing. And there have been many outings. Ziggy is quite mindful of smaller dogs and plays really well with the smaller dogs, especially the little ones who play chase all the time. He has no interest in toys or balls at the park and would much rather be just running. I understand that some people don't like staffys or crosses but at la leash free dog park you will find all sorts of temperaments and play types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Staffyluv Try to prevent it starting ie if you see a new dog coming or a trigger dog, catch yours immediately. Don't let him get so far away from you that you'd need a whistle either - not till he's better. I find my dog's long recalls are better if I've been doing lots of close recalls, especially at the start of the walk - ie keeping her close to me. It's easier for her to recall from 3m to 5m than from 20m with the treat lady in sight (evil woman who feeds all the dogs at our park). My dog spends the entire time the treat lady is at the park - on lead - cos neither of them have any self control. Them's the breaks when the distractions are too high for the dog to respond. Then it's all about managing the distractions and building up to good response again. But you have to put your dog on lead to do that. Just try to get in first. Ie don't let him off if you can see a distraction, and catch him before he spots any new distractions approaching. PS I find getting my dog to hold a drop when greeting new dogs can help her frame of mind. Though she usually volunteers this. Thanks for that I like the idea of holding a drop to meet a new dog as he seems to be calmer in a drop. His recall is still crap. Not as bad as it was but still not what it should be The thing I have an issue with is there is nothing that will bring him back to me. At the park he does not care about treats or toys. It is frustrating as hell because at home I call and he comes running for treats and toys. If i give him a good training session before we go he is heaps better. I do now put him back on lead until he calms and then he is OK but it can escalate again if the mood in the park gets really exciting I would love some suggestions on how to make him focus on me or want a specific toy or treat because I have tried everything from liver, biscuits and dog choc drops and he really does not care for any of them I thought I had him with a squeaky tennis ball but that lasted about 5 minutes I will definitely try the meet in drop or stay in drop when dogs come in the park.. Thanks I really do appreciate the ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 It is about building value for you and your rewards - they will not automatically be more interesting than new dogs and smells, you have to work at it :) There are lots of ways you can do this. When I have more time I will write some suggestions. And don't let him off lead in the dog park if his recall is still bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nawnim Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) ... Edited June 1, 2012 by padraic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 While you're allowing him to practise his recall being crap then it's not going to get better. Your dog is telling you where the value is, and while there is other more fun things to do, it's not with you. Blunt, but dogs don't lie. A good recall under a dog's biggest distractions takes a lot of time and work to fix, especially when you've now got a history of him failing. At home in the kitchen is probably a 1 out of 10 on the distraction scale. A dog park with dogs he seems to target is probably a 9 or 10 out of 10. You say you've got your at home recall under control, have a think about a 2/10 distraction and work on that. Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, so put him on a long line if you have any doubt he could fail. Every time he manages to fail is putting you back weeks of work to fix this. Once you're completely confident that he will come 100% of the time, start working on your 3/10 distractions and so on. You might get to a point where you're happy with him recalling from a 7/10 distraction and that's as far as you'll go - and that's fine. But don't blame the dog for it, and be prepared to keep working on it throughout his entire life to keep him at that level. I wouldn't be taking him to a dog park at all - you're just building an even higher value for not coming when called and getting in the face of other dogs. As the owner of a dog who hates strange dogs getting in her face, it wouldn't be her you'd need to worry about, it would be me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Jess thanks for the input and method... Believe me, I don't blame him. I realise it is my methods and not reinforcing it enough... Home is fine but I do see what you mean about the differing distraction levels and now I am going to try to introduce some higher distractions at home and get him recalling here with that going on... Hopefully the trainer when we meet up can give me more to work with... All these ideas are very much appreciated, I don't want my boy thought of as a bad dog or me as a bad dog owner... Especially when all he really wants to do is play... I know with patience and training we can get him back to the recall he had and not so irritating to shy dogs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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