Pet Industry Setting The Rules For Puppy Farms

[dog_fan]

Let's not forget that ANKC registered breeders can sell puppies to pet shops without any problems as the ANKC allows this to be acceptable behaviour.

There's a Trade Practices Act which would not allow an association such as the ANKC to enforce a ban. So it's not a case of the ANKC 'allowing' registered breeders to sell puppies in a pet shop or not.

But it does not contravene that Act to have recommended guidelines on homing puppies & dogs, in terms of screening for suitability, providing follow-up advice & support etc. As many registered breeders, who provide appropriate care for their puppies & dogs, do.

And, as far as I know, such a relationship between breeder & potential puppy owner is urged, ethically.

So that makes it OK? Registered ANKC breeders selling to pet shops and the public are supposed to think that ANKC breeders are ethical and operating under an ethical system? I think not.

No one says that it's OK. It happens to be not illegal.

Because of the Trade Practices Act, an association can't state and enforce a ban. Best they can do is suggest ethical guidelines which they can't make binding.

If there were another piece of legislation which said that the sale of dogs & puppies were in a different category, then the situation could be different (which has been tried & defeated. Remember Clover Moore's efforts?).

Why is Animal Liberation the only group that gives a counter case in public matters like this ? Thank goodness someone does. But I'd like to see other groups commenting, from other angles.

I hope I have misunderstood your post but are you suggesting I am an animal rights person because if you are you are dead wrong.

[mita]

So if it's ok because it's not legal then how can anyone complain about legal commercial breeders?

Seems a bit of double standards going on in this thread.

Something can be legal, but not the right thing to do.

I explained why I have concerns with the PIAA's notions of breeding & selling puppies, in my first post

And how ethical registered breeders, who behave accordingly, have been found to raise the best socialised puppies (research).

That is not saying that all registered breeders DO behave accordingly. It simply says that when that system is at its best, it does best by the puppies & new owners.

Not double standards.....but a range in standards.

[dog_fan]

So if it's ok because it's not legal then how can anyone complain about legal commercial breeders?

Seems a bit of double standards going on in this thread.

Something can be legal, but not the right thing to do.

I explained why I have concerns with the PIAA's notions of breeding & selling puppies, in my first post

And how ethical registered breeders, who behave accordingly, have been found to raise the best socialised puppies (research).

That is not saying that all registered breeders DO behave accordingly. It simply says that when that system is at its best, it does best by the puppies & new owners.

Not double standards.....but a range in standards.

But what does the ANKC do to police it's members to ensure they are "ethical" and sticking to their code of conduct?

All anyone needs to do is to look at the puppies for sale on the other part of this site to see some suspect breeders and yet they are allowed to advertise here simply because they have an ANKC prefix.

There is no accountability for ANKC breeders from their governing bodies

[mita]

I hope I have misunderstood your post but are you suggesting I am an animal rights person because if you are you are dead wrong.

No, it simply was a general question. Because Animal Liberation was the only other organisation, than the PIAA, mentioned in the OP.

[Steve]

If this goes to plan - if breeders are going to be inspected yearly, and if their shelter plan is implemented and effective... Then the ANKC has a long way to go to keep up.

Yep but inspected for what? They still have loads [100's of dogs] and couldn't tell by one visit as to what they do on a daily basis only what they see on the day. Its still the breeder passing the buck even if it is onto PIAA - its still not them being contactable by the buyer or being held responsible after the sale. Nice for PIAA to offer to do but it means the breeder is rewarded and out of gaol if they sell to a pet shop.

Remember that ANKC registered breeders can also sell to PIAA pet stores.

[Paganman]

There is no accountability for ANKC breeders from their governing bodies

Here theres always breeders listed in our monthly magazine the ones that have broken the code of ethics in some way.They get fines and suspensions and there names are there for everyone to see and you can read what they did wrong.Im in Vic

Edited March 6, 2012 by Paganman

[Salukifan]

If this goes to plan - if breeders are going to be inspected yearly, and if their shelter plan is implemented and effective... Then the ANKC has a long way to go to keep up.

Yep but inspected for what? They still have loads [100's of dogs] and couldn't tell by one visit as to what they do on a daily basis only what they see on the day. Its still the breeder passing the buck even if it is onto PIAA - its still not them being contactable by the buyer or being held responsible after the sale. Nice for PIAA to offer to do but it means the breeder is rewarded and out of gaol if they sell to a pet shop.

Remember that ANKC registered breeders can also sell to PIAA pet stores.

Some can Steve but not all. See my post above.

[Steve]

If this goes to plan - if breeders are going to be inspected yearly, and if their shelter plan is implemented and effective... Then the ANKC has a long way to go to keep up.

Yep but inspected for what? They still have loads [100's of dogs] and couldn't tell by one visit as to what they do on a daily basis only what they see on the day. Its still the breeder passing the buck even if it is onto PIAA - its still not them being contactable by the buyer or being held responsible after the sale. Nice for PIAA to offer to do but it means the breeder is rewarded and out of gaol if they sell to a pet shop.

Remember that ANKC registered breeders can also sell to PIAA pet stores.

Some can Steve but not all. See my post above.

Yep I saw it - I should say ANKC registered breeders in some states can sell to pet shops. Thank you

[Salukifan]

It will be interesting to see if PIAA bites the bullet on compulsory health testing.

I don't think that will impress the President of the AAPDB. ;)

[Jed]

Let's not forget that ANKC registered breeders can sell puppies to pet shops without any problems as the ANKC allows this to be acceptable behaviour.

There's a Trade Practices Act which would not allow an association such as the ANKC to enforce a ban. So it's not a case of the ANKC 'allowing' registered breeders to sell puppies in a pet shop or not.

But it does not contravene that Act to have recommended guidelines on homing puppies & dogs, in terms of screening for suitability, providing follow-up advice & support etc. As many registered breeders, who provide appropriate care for their puppies & dogs, do.

And, as far as I know, such a relationship between breeder & potential puppy owner is urged, ethically.

So that makes it OK? Registered ANKC breeders selling to pet shops and the public are supposed to think that ANKC breeders are ethical and operating under an ethical system? I think not.

No, it doesn't make it OK. But it is up to the individual breeder. Most would not sell to pet shops - in fact, the majority. And there is nothing Dogs Qld can do. Some years ago, if members were selling to pet shops, they could expect at least a holiday from their prefix, or a complete ban.

Then someone complained to the Dept of Fair Trading, and DQ was told very smartly that what they had been doing was against the law, and if they did it again, they would get a $30,000 fine.

So they didn't do it again. Don't beat them up for not doing anything.

And back on topic - it is obvious that the PIAA can see how the wind blows with sale of pups in pet shops. I imagine an "accredited PIAA breeder" would be exactly the same as a "PIAA accredited pet shop", which is, you pay your annual fees, and bingo you are "accredited". Ask the PIAA what constitutes "accredited" and whether/how often they check on their accredited pet shops.

Sale of pups and kittens should be banned in pet shops. End of story.

ANKC breeders who are selling to pet shops would no longer have markets, and puppy farmer grubs would lose most of their outlets. Plus other grubs who have a litter because they couldn't be arsed to control their dogs' sexuality, or have it speyed, and phone up the pet shop to try to flog them 5 week old puppies because they couldn't be bothered any more, would get short shift. Yep, the pounds would cop the pups, but most rescuers like pups, they make $$$ out of them. And the "accidental litter" grubs probably wouldn't do it again

But it will never happen, because PIAA represents too much money, and they will wave a BIG stick at the goverement, members of whom, not giving a rats about dogs really, will cave in and flap their hands, and make other legislation which will frighten the few remaining ANKC members away.

And if the only way I can continue to breed dogs is to pay an annual fee to the government - on top of the fees I pay now to council and DogsQ - and to have some numpty from the government inspecting my home and dogs annually, I will walk away. As will many other breeders. Which, as far as I can see, is the intent of the legislation.

The only people who come to my home are those invited, and that is how it will stay.

And don't think mine is an extreme view - it is the general view.

And dog fan, people can complain about legal commercial breeders because dogs are not cattle and are not psychologically designed to be kept in herds away from people. And that is what happens when the conditions are optimum. When the conditions are not optimum, dogs are not designed to be kept in stinking conditions, breeding time after time, with serious untreated health problems, in constant fear and anquish, only to be shot when they cannot make enough profit.

And if you aren't happy about ANKC breeders generally, or their ethics or ethos, please do buy your puppies elsewhere. There are other registries, the MDBA which advertises here, and the AADBA - I think - which sells pet puppies, and others.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Jed

[dog_fan]

I hope I have misunderstood your post but are you suggesting I am an animal rights person because if you are you are dead wrong.

No, it simply was a general question. Because Animal Liberation was the only other organisation, than the PIAA, mentioned in the OP.

Txs

[Jed]

dog fan

All anyone needs to do is to look at the puppies for sale on the other part of this site to see some suspect breeders and yet they are allowed to advertise here simply because they have an ANKC prefix.

Could you please advise me how you ascertain a "suspect breeder" from an advertisement on this site? Thanks.

[mita]

[ dogs are not cattle and are not psychologically designed to be kept in herds away from people.

You can always be relied on to zero in on the most important point about the breeding of dogs as companions/helpmates to humans.

That has to be in place first....all else then follows.

A totally different approach to dog breeding, from that presented by the PIAA, needs to be in the public eye.

[dog_fan]

And dog fan, people can complain about legal commercial breeders because dogs are not cattle and are not psychologically designed to be kept in herds away from people. And that is what happens when the conditions are optimum. When the conditions are not optimum, dogs are not designed to be kept in stinking conditions, breeding time after time, with serious untreated health problems, in constant fear and anquish, only to be shot when they cannot make enough profit.

And if you aren't happy about ANKC breeders generally, or their ethics or ethos, please do buy your puppies elsewhere. There are other registries, the MDBA which advertises here, and the AADBA - I think - which sells pet puppies, and others.

I agree dogs should not be kept in stinking conditions so I don't give a rats about what they are called they need to be closed down.

Alternatively if dogs in "puppy farms" are being socialised and kept in the legally accepted conditions they should not be shut down.

[dog_fan]

dog fan

All anyone needs to do is to look at the puppies for sale on the other part of this site to see some suspect breeders and yet they are allowed to advertise here simply because they have an ANKC prefix.

Could you please advise me how you ascertain a "suspect breeder" from an advertisement on this site? Thanks.

Dogs bred for colour for one....just go look at how many blue SBT's there are advertised.

[OzzieLioness]

I am puzzled about how you ascertain that people who breed for colour are puppy farmers?? I fail to see what is wrong with that - as LONG as the rest is good ... it's the same as ... hmmm, breeding a palamino. You stay within your breeding plan and aim for good to great conformation, BUT, you KNOW that the colour you'll be getting is golden. Aren't people who breed dogs allowed to do that??

I need to point out that right at this point in time, I do NOT share my life with a dog, a puppy, a cat or even a goldfish!

[Guest Arcane]

"""" Dogs and puppies sold in our stores will only be from PIAA-approved breeders who care for their dogs," Mr Perkins said."""

Yet again the PIAA expose themselves as supporters of puppy farming....PIAA approved puppy farms. Whether a puppy farm/factory is 'approved' or not, it is still large scale intensive breeding of companion animals for profit

Regardless of what people call them, if the animals are being cared for according to legal standards then they are not a puppy farm.

So as long as the dozens or hundreds of dogs are well fed & watered in their nice clean little cages, that's ok? And what the heck else can large scale intensive commercial breeding of companion animals be called , if not a puppy farm/factory?

Unfortunately yes that appears to be perfectly legal...but for the PIAA to support, maybe even encourage the practice , well that makes me livid.

It is a sad day when the companion canine is reduced to this

A couple of years ago I had the dubious pleasure of debating this in person with Mr.Perkins. I would be banned if I wrote here what that conversation left me feeling.

[Crisovar]

Of course the PIAA support it, PIAA members make huge amounts of money out of puppies, money talks.

[Jed]

dog fan

All anyone needs to do is to look at the puppies for sale on the other part of this site to see some suspect breeders and yet they are allowed to advertise here simply because they have an ANKC prefix.

Could you please advise me how you ascertain a "suspect breeder" from an advertisement on this site? Thanks.

Dogs bred for colour for one....just go look at how many blue SBT's there are advertised.

So, that is your only criterion of a suspect breeder?

dog fan

Alternatively if dogs in "puppy farms" are being socialised and kept in the legally accepted conditions they should not be shut down.

That's an oxymoron.

One reason they are called "puppy FARMS" is because there are numerous dogs kept in farm like conditions - as much as anyone has ever qualified the term anyhow.

So, you would prefer many dogs kept on puppy farms in "legally accepted conditions" above a breeder breeding for colour?

I know someone who has 300 dogs - legally licensed, and kept in "legally accepted conditons", who mostly sells to pet shops. That is about 1200 pups per annum, if they are mated once a year and 2400 if they are mated twice a year.

dog fan, you believe that a puppy farm is better than someone with 3 blue SBTs who are kept in the house, well loved and cared for, with all health tests done, breeding blue pups? Yes?

Mita

You can always be relied on to zero in on the most important point about the breeding of dogs as companions/helpmates to humans.

That has to be in place first....all else then follows.

A totally different approach to dog breeding, from that presented by the PIAA, needs to be in the public eye.

Thanks Mita. Could be experience with "properly raised pups" - as opposed to the puppy farm dogs I have purchased and have rehomed? There is a large difference, which equates with the UQ findings.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Jed

[Guest Arcane]

Of course the PIAA support it, PIAA members make huge amounts of money out of puppies, money talks.

yep, that about sums it up