What Can Be Done About Unethical Registered Breeders?

[asal]

To answer the question: If you think someone is breeding unethically, how about approaching them personally and finding out what they do and why they do it? Maybe you can teach them something . . . or maybe there's a reason for what they're doing, and they can teach you something.

Backstabbing and policework are not effective tools for behaviour modification. Honest, non-judgemental communication does sometimes work.

Education holds the key.

Why cannot the powers-that-be hit the television screens and sides-of-buses with a campaign to educate buyers?

The RSPCA had plenty to spend on advertising and plenty to say when they wanted to ban the docking the tails of pups.

Why not use the same tactics to make sure that the general public are not getting ripped off when they buy a puppy.

A role for ASIC, or the Dept of Fair Trading maybe?

Souff

never noticed this thread. how interesting

how unethical are the show fraternity?

thank god so far there is not a demand that to be a breeder you have to show...yet.

there are those who do not like the showring, who do not like the attitude of a number involved.

know some who just loved to show, to them it was their favourite activity, social occasion among the like minded. some still do, some will nevr go again after being shredded

any way back to subject.

how ethical are people who tell an exhibitor that if their dog cannot become a champion easily, that they have the right to return the now dog for a full refund as main register papers guarantee that dog is good enough to become a champion?

As in has won quite a few challenges, then as adult teeth come in not straight as the puppy teeth but the bottoms came in slanting forward turning the scissor bite into level and slightly past that so that some judges still awarded challanges and some nil awarded it.

this advice was given not just by other exhibitors but also judges.

whatever happened to the FACT that many breeding quality only dogs can turn out more top quality progeny than a best in show winner?

how many newbies to the pedigree dog world even know that "breeding quality only dogs" that "breeding quality does not equate with SHOW quality" even exist . let alone are allowed to exist?

how ETHICAL are the people who tell the owner of such a puppy that main register is a guarantee of champion status?

then there is the case of people who buy a puppy and take it to a show. not to exhibit or enter it as they have been told it is not up to show quality but will make and excellent brood. how ETHICAL are the people at that show to in one case i know of personally to tell that person their now half grown gangly pup is a x bred and to return it and demand their money back?

how ETHICAL are these people?

to even tell the victum to phone the breeder and on speaker phone all listen to the conversation between the now heartbroken puppys owner and the libeled breeder?

how intelligent are some of the bystanders who also agreed the said puppy was an x bred without even asking the parentage?

now there was the funny hilarous bit for the breeder... two of the people who agreed it was a xbred had bred the parents of that pup.

this is the shit that happens to innocents who take their pride and joy to a show to show off their baby.

how ETHICAL are people who do libelous let alone heartbreaking things like this to the puppies owner let alone breeder?

this is WHAT IS HAPPENING by the so called ETHICAL MOB.

Who NEEDS PETA to destroy the pedigree dog world???????????

the self proclaimed ETHICALS cant even recognise a purebred unless they sold it to the victum.

[Mystiqview]

Really though. What is "Show Quality"

I see in my breed, "Suitable for show, obedience, agility" etc.

The person has never set foot in any of these arenas. Really, on one hand, how would they REALLY know what any of these qualities are?

To sell a dog to an agility home with severe slipping hocks? How is that sporting quality? Not to mention the dog is dumb as a row of "Poo brick-houses". To the point it just carries this deflated soccer ball around the yard and does not know what to do with it? (The dog reminded me of a toddler carrying around it's favourite stuffed toy "security blanket".

There is a large difference between "Show Quality" and "breeding quality". Really, any dog will qualify for breeding quality. It has a uterus or doodle. It can be bred. Does not mean it should be bred however.

Even those who do breed for show, understand that it may only show potential at 8 weeks of age. I just rehomed a bitch which I bred, who showed a lot of potential as a pup, but did not grow enough to continue on. She now enjoys the relaxed environment of a pet home and is desexed. This happens.

I feel for the poor puppy buyer who does not know any better and is sucked in by some of these "breeders" who advertise their dogs as show quality, when really, they would never cut it in the show world. Why?? They are not breeding for structure, but rather colour. When you go past all else for colour, other qualities disappear.

[asal]

Really though. What is "Show Quality"

I see in my breed, "Suitable for show, obedience, agility" etc.

The person has never set foot in any of these arenas. Really, on one hand, how would they REALLY know what any of these qualities are?

To sell a dog to an agility home with severe slipping hocks? How is that sporting quality? Not to mention the dog is dumb as a row of "Poo brick-houses". To the point it just carries this deflated soccer ball around the yard and does not know what to do with it? (The dog reminded me of a toddler carrying around it's favourite stuffed toy "security blanket".

There is a large difference between "Show Quality" and "breeding quality". Really, any dog will qualify for breeding quality. It has a uterus or doodle. It can be bred. Does not mean it should be bred however.

Even those who do breed for show, understand that it may only show potential at 8 weeks of age. I just rehomed a bitch which I bred, who showed a lot of potential as a pup, but did not grow enough to continue on. She now enjoys the relaxed environment of a pet home and is desexed. This happens.

I feel for the poor puppy buyer who does not know any better and is sucked in by some of these "breeders" who advertise their dogs as show quality, when really, they would never cut it in the show world. Why?? They are not breeding for structure, but rather colour. When you go past all else for colour, other qualities disappear.

in the instance of the now 'failed' STILL WINING OCCASIONAL CHALLENGES now deemed not show quality...it was juges and fellow exhibitors who chose the pup at the same venue 8 months later who decided the breeder was now at fault?

so are they fools, hypocrites or even more unethical when they, WHO CHOSE THE PUP, then SO MANY months later brand the breeder?

take YOUR pick

Edited March 11, 2012 by asal

[Leema]

There is nothing in the code of ethics regarding selling puppies for 'show' or 'breeding' purposes, so it's not the kind of ethics that I am concerned about.

[Jed]

Leema, I think the most important thing is to see something, and say "I wont be like that". The more people who do that, the better the hobby would be, and who knows, people who are being encouraged to be bad may decide otherwise. And at least you are then at peace with yourself. :)

[Steve]

One of the things that used to happen was that there were lots of breeders breeding dogs the way they thought the dogs should be bred with lots of different goals.

It meant that if one group got into trouble with genetic issues or form etc there was somewhere else to go . If you approached a breeder and told them the truth - that you may

like to breed a litter one day the breeder took that into account and gave you a dog which wouldn't do the gene pool any harm - it may not be the best they had but it was a good start. They patted you onthe head and offered help even if you were only going to have a litter to pay the new lounge suit off because they didnt want you to muck it up regardless of what your reason for breeding was.

Now everyone has to breed for the same goal with pressure on to conform to what is currently winning in the ring - if they don't show the dogs or breed champions rather than the ones they like best they are beaten up , accused of being unethical or worse "puppy farmer"

If show breeders cant see how anyone else may breed for better eyes, or better hips and not test the dogs in the ring - they are unethical but that means we end up where we are now. Limited choices , limited gene pool, limited numbers of breeders.

The minute you start to dabble in this and challenge someone on their motivations there is a no win. they can tell you their motivations are anything and you cant prove what they were thinking - you can disagree with what they do but you cant prove that your idea of what is best for the breed is any better than their idea of what is bets for the breed.

Who decides and if one breeder believes the show ring is not helping to better the breed and may in fact be detrimental to it and decide to go against what the next person thinks - which is unethical.

It would appear that the way the thing is written the onus is on the breeder to decide what they think is best for the standard of the breed and the premise is that as long as that is their intent no one else gets to say whether how they are doing it is evidence that they didnt have the intent to do the right thing by the breed whether someone else agrees with their methods or not.

The only way you could prove that this part of the code wasn't being followed is if the breeder actually said - I couldn't care less about the standard of the breed and when I choose my dogs my intention is solely to make money- because it not based on results but on intent. Every person's idea on what is best and how to put that into practice is different.

Therefore the solution is to do what you think is best when you have clear goals and don't worry about what anyone is doing regarding what is best for the standard of the breed. Most often as you are around longer and evolve as a breeder what you know now is best for the breed changes and you can see why someone else did something you didn't understand at the time.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Steve

[Mjosa]

I have been breeding and showing dogs, showing until recently, since 1970, at that stage I had my first puppy to have a dabble in the show ring, she did fairly well, was very typical of the Pembroke Corgi for the day, then I decided to breed from her, she had a beautiful litter.

Then came the time for selling them with some very nice babies amongst them, it was at this time the President of the club gave me very good advice and I have stood by it ever since.

The advice was this;

You do not know at eight weeks whether the promising puppy in the litter will turn out, so when selling tell them you are selling your bloodlines and the puppy is a gift.

Pity that some breeders these days were not so kennel blind, how could you possibly know an eight week old puppy is show quality?

If I have been asked for a show puppy I tell them the above or they have the option of me running the selected puppy on and show it myself, but of course this comes at a cost, to prove that it is worthy, without fail they take me up on the first option.

[asal]

I have been breeding and showing dogs, showing until recently, since 1970, at that stage I had my first puppy to have a dabble in the show ring, she did fairly well, was very typical of the Pembroke Corgi for the day, then I decided to breed from her, she had a beautiful litter.

Then came the time for selling them with some very nice babies amongst them, it was at this time the President of the club gave me very good advice and I have stood by it ever since.

The advice was this;

You do not know at eight weeks whether the promising puppy in the litter will turn out, so when selling tell them you are selling your bloodlines and the puppy is a gift.

Pity that some breeders these days were not so kennel blind, how could you possibly know an eight week old puppy is show quality?

If I have been asked for a show puppy I tell them the above or they have the option of me running the selected puppy on and show it myself, but of course this comes at a cost, to prove that it is worthy, without fail they take me up on the first option.

do you limit register everything that cant become an Aust champion?

I know i never kept a pup from my best in show winner.

but her never shown sister was the one whose daughters continued the line.

so far as i can see those breeders who only use aust champions are severly limiting the gene pool.

as for the 8 weeks old pup. the purchaser was an ex breeder of another breed of long standing. wanted an 8 week pup and assured the mug breeder they were perfectly aware how much puppies can change from apparently perfect.

mug breeder had already advised the old hand exactly what you say, was told exactly the same by the legion of 'advisors' happy to help select the up and comming puppy the buyer only wanted to be able to show and enjoy the show scene with "fully aware it might turn out to be just pet quality".

these are the people who are the show scene.

a significant percentage are .............. you add the words, they are a blight on the dog scene newbies and the very dogs they so profess to adore

they are what is bringing the pedigree dog down, it never needed anything else the rot started in the 70's and is so widespread now i doubt there is a fungacide strong enough to clean it out before all the fruit is destroyed

[Sheridan]

My Grumpy's breeder had three in his first litter. Two Australian champions, one of which was also a CDX, and Grumpy, who got a trifle bored going around a ring. Yet it was Grumpy that the breeder decided to sire a couple of litters. Not every show dog has to be bred from and not every dog bred from has to be a show dog. Not every show dog that's bred from has to be a champion. Some dogs are just good solid dogs.

[dog_fan]

My Grumpy's breeder had three in his first litter. Two Australian champions, one of which was also a CDX, and Grumpy, who got a trifle bored going around a ring. Yet it was Grumpy that the breeder decided to sire a couple of litters. Not every show dog has to be bred from and not every dog bred from has to be a show dog. Not every show dog that's bred from has to be a champion. Some dogs are just good solid dogs.

And maybe this will be the only thing that saves some breeds. That there are dogs available for breeding that have not been bred for the show ring and may not have the serious faults we see today.

[Mjosa]

I very seldom breed and this has been the deal since coming into pedigree dogs, I only breed when I have enough people on my books or I need something for myself even at my age if I get something that I think worth campaigning I will be out again,my last litter was in 2009, seven puppies, four sold to people who wanted my bloodlines, and they took them into the show ring, two of these dogs are Aust. Ch. and the other two NZ ch. the three remaining puppies went on limited register, anything that I sell as pets are on the limited as ,most of my puppies are, and they also go with a desexing contract, which is very imformative as to the conditions of sale. I have been in this game for years and learnt a lot believe me.

I have sent frozen semen to the UK from the first use of it produced three Cruft class winners, I also have Champions in the USA one is a dual champion and his offspring has been titled too, I plan to mate my young girl, she is almost two years old, when she comes in later this month and I have two definte reorders to the USA, they will be shown before leaving here.

[sandgrubber]

Education holds the key.

Why cannot the powers-that-be hit the television screens and sides-of-buses with a campaign to educate buyers?

The RSPCA had plenty to spend on advertising and plenty to say when they wanted to ban the docking the tails of pups.

Why not use the same tactics to make sure that the general public are not getting ripped off when they buy a puppy.

Souff

Ah yes, education, the universal fix all. Only problem, lots of people don't want to be educated . . . and your attempt to compete for educating people will compete with much better organised and financed efforts by the Animal Rights groups.

Btw., I hope, idealist that I am, there's a difference between advertising and education.

United we stand, divided we fall. There's no question that the pedigree dog world is deeply divided.So long as one breeder's 'improving the breed' is another breeder's 'narrowing gene pools and promoting exaggerated characteristics', the pedigree dog world cannot effectively advertise.. . . or educate.

Edited March 11, 2012 by sandgrubber

[Sheridan]

Education holds the key.

Why cannot the powers-that-be hit the television screens and sides-of-buses with a campaign to educate buyers?

The RSPCA had plenty to spend on advertising and plenty to say when they wanted to ban the docking the tails of pups.

Why not use the same tactics to make sure that the general public are not getting ripped off when they buy a puppy.

Souff

Ah yes, education, the universal fix all. Only problem, lots of people don't want to be educated . . . and your attempt to compete for educating people will compete with much better organised and financed efforts by the Animal Rights groups.

Btw., I hope, idealist that I am, there's a difference between advertising and education.

United we stand, divided we fall. There's no question that the pedigree dog world is deeply divided.So long as one breeder's 'improving the breed' is another breeder's 'narrowing gene pools and promoting exaggerated characteristics', the pedigree dog world cannot effectively advertise.. . . or educate.

How would you tackle this issue?

[Souff]

Education holds the key.

Why cannot the powers-that-be hit the television screens and sides-of-buses with a campaign to educate buyers?

The RSPCA had plenty to spend on advertising and plenty to say when they wanted to ban the docking the tails of pups.

Why not use the same tactics to make sure that the general public are not getting ripped off when they buy a puppy.

Souff

Ah yes, education, the universal fix all. Only problem, lots of people don't want to be educated . . . and your attempt to compete for educating people will compete with much better organised and financed efforts by the Animal Rights groups.

Btw., I hope, idealist that I am, there's a difference between advertising and education.

United we stand, divided we fall. There's no question that the pedigree dog world is deeply divided.So long as one breeder's 'improving the breed' is another breeder's 'narrowing gene pools and promoting exaggerated characteristics', the pedigree dog world cannot effectively advertise.. . . or educate.

Sandgrubber, in the early years of the last decade (gawd, I am soooo old)the masses were educated without leaving the room where the telly was.

They were educated with lies and half truths, but it worked really well for those who wanted to have tail docking banned.

There were no classes to go to, no books to read, no formal education and no fees to pay for courses, but the general public were educated that tail docking was "cruel" and only done for "fashion reaasons". This was not the truth of the matter, the truth became the casualty and anyone who stood up and opposed these popularist and well promoted ideas was either branded as a nut case or a selfish and sadistic person. There was no scientific evidence asked for by the government of the day and so the public did not need to ask difficult questions - they just needed to read the mega-sized ads on the sides of buses in capital cities and watch their television screens in prime time.

The public was educated by the advertising.

Why cannot the same be done, along the lines of "Is this where your next pet-shop or internet puppy will come from?

and show disgusting scenes of little matted dogs lying in their own urine and faeces.

"Check out your puppy's first home before buying - ask a registered breeder now"

Shock tactics work. Strong messages work.

If potential buyers are shocked by what they see, will they continue to rock up to pet shops and buy a puppy?

I think not.

The canine councils have done little advertising to encourage people to check out their puppy's first home and it costs a lot of money to put this advertising on buses and television.

Perhaps the advertising could be a government initiative?

No money?

The Federal Government should have bags of the stuff after the Carbon Tax kicks in - we are all going to pay for that.

Advertising works, that I do know.

Shock tactics also work and there are enough pics of neglected and matted little fluffy dogs being bred from despite matted coats and oozing sores, to fill a bus. They are shocking. They are disgusting.

We know that advertising can educate the masses - both with crap and with good information, so why not use it against the cruel breeders.

Souff

[asal]

Then theres the Canine Journal or whatever its called now.

Has anyone EVER seen a single article about the need to encourage new members?

sure you get a free membership renewal if you get three newbies to join.

but whats thepoint if every one of them has a limit register pup.

20 years ago it was noted that on the main new breeders only remined members on average 5 years.

the reason why in many cases is the discovery that breeding is heartbreaking when things go wrong. the other reason is the discovery how viscious and savage other human members are.

as noted previously in just the two instances I have seen and know about. I know many enthusastic members who are so shattered by how nasty the show scene suddenly becomes if they actually start winning.

so what about stories and education about manners at shows just for starters.

about there are in fact three differnt types of dogs not just two.

these the pet not to be bred from type because it is not a good enough specimen of its breed to be used.

the BREEDING QUALITY type that is a sound, well conformed example of the breet but not pretty or exagerated enough to catch the eye in the ring but can and quite frequently out produces the so fawned over best of show winners even, let alone champions.

the breeding quality dogs have been the backbone of the purebred dog for centauries.

now 90 percent of them along with 90 percent of the even show quality are on limit register so no one can use them to continue the breed.

I just sold a beauty as a pet yesterday, these puppies are the future of the breed always have been.

People with a superb example who hear wherever they go.. WOW where did you get that dog.

are the future of all the breeds. One in a hundred might decide to breed from it. If you have already desexed it before it even left your kennel or made them contract to guarantee to do so.

where is there the opportunity for that dog to ever contribute to bringing in a new member or breeder?

most of these people so love their baby there is no way they will consider getting it another home and buying a breedable one.

These people are not like the lady who although a past breeder n exhibitor of a larger breed herself, and knew all the right words to say when conning the breeder of "the smaller easier to maintain breed she had decided on to get back into the scene and still have something to show" when the opportunity arose to pressure the breeder to take the now imperfect toothed dog back did so with the speed of light. What happened to the love for the dog there?

The show scenies just love preening their ethical feathers. But a significant number of them dont care a jot about the dog but the trophy collection.

It doesnt take even the glassy eyeed newbies long to get their rose petals ripped off.

then they are in a pickle. show and be ethical... or walk away and be tarred and feathered.

THIS IS THE ISSUE that our directors need to work on, and so far havent

the results are now so stark maybe it might get addressed?

whether its too late and as one has already said the numbers left are so low now its "all over red rover"

wars have left numbers almost extinct and breeders have struggled to revive them.

now its the turn of saving even the membership now.

recognise breeding quality dogs,,,stop attacking each other and denegrating everyone and anyone you dont agree with.

maybe it is impossilbe the human ape is maybe the most savage and destructive species left at the moment?

I would like to think that is not so. and get people working together

whats the chances?

[Sheridan]

asal, have you stood for the Dogs NSW committee?

[asal]

asal, have you stood for the Dogs NSW committee?

with all the tar and feathers i wear?

think they would lynch me

[sandgrubber]

Education holds the key.

Why cannot the powers-that-be hit the television screens and sides-of-buses with a campaign to educate buyers?

The RSPCA had plenty to spend on advertising and plenty to say when they wanted to ban the docking the tails of pups.

Why not use the same tactics to make sure that the general public are not getting ripped off when they buy a puppy.

Souff

Ah yes, education, the universal fix all. Only problem, lots of people don't want to be educated . . . and your attempt to compete for educating people will compete with much better organised and financed efforts by the Animal Rights groups.

Btw., I hope, idealist that I am, there's a difference between advertising and education.

United we stand, divided we fall. There's no question that the pedigree dog world is deeply divided.So long as one breeder's 'improving the breed' is another breeder's 'narrowing gene pools and promoting exaggerated characteristics', the pedigree dog world cannot effectively advertise.. . . or educate.

How would you tackle this issue?

Sigh! I wish I had a good answer. But having spent a good part of my life in education, I think its value for bringing about behaviour change is overrated.

I doubt that the take home breeders exam and downloadable pamphlets for breeders have had much effect cause it's so easy to pass the exam by getting help . . . and telling them what they want to hear. Making the test harder, and/or not take-home, would frighten away new breeders, and that's the last thing the ANKC needs to do.

Advertising/marketing is designed to change behaviour, and it works. But a good marketing program is damnably expensive and requires a clear, simple message.

As shown by the environmental, anti-war, and civil rights campaigns of the 60's through 80's . . . and modern AR movements, low budget guerrilla tactics can be effective, but I'm not creative enough to see a way to dramatize the problems of unethical behaviour.

The KC's will take on individual cases, as Steve has noted, and it might help if people used this avenue more for unambiguously unethical breeding practices. But then . . . at one point when I lived in a kennel area, had I a breeder on either side of me who kept dogs in filthy kennels and allowed very little exercise or socialisation. I know one neglected vet care . . . eg, allowing ear infections to go to abscess requiring surgery. Both did well in the show ring. One was an all-breeds judge. I'm stupidly brave in print, but it takes a lot of nerve to initiate a real confrontation with someone who lives next door, especially when they outrank you in the canine world.