Leema Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Undeniably, there are registered breeders engaging in unethical practices. Of course, puppy buyers should proceed with caution, inspect a breeder's premises and the puppies (and parents) in question, and support (or otherwise) breeders with their dollar. But, unfortunately, there are plenty of people who will buy questionable puppies, from unsanitary premises, from unethical people, and think they are doing the right thing because they're 'registered' with the ANKC. What should the ANKC bodies be doing to ensure that their code of ethics is being upheld? Particular clauses from the code of ethics that are regularly violated are: *Breeding "only" to improve the quality of the breed *Striving to eliminate hereditary diseases *Providing a vaccination certificate to new puppy owners (i.e. some breeders do not vaccinate prior to rehoming puppies) *Selling dogs or puppies that are not in good health (e.g. selling dogs with parasites) *Not providing documentation regarding dietary and other requirements for the breed ***FOR THE SAKE OF THIS THREAD: Lets use the term 'ethical' to mean 'conforms to code of conduct'.*** Edited March 5, 2012 by Leema Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog_fan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 How about the ANKC start policing their members? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 not every breeder wants their premises seen by puppy buyers all the time due to potential theft. I think the ANKC should make provisions that somehow the premises is inspected, even if it means by police checked volunteers. Offer an incentive of free ANKC reg or something like that in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) not every breeder wants their premises seen by puppy buyers all the time due to potential theft. I think the ANKC should make provisions that somehow the premises is inspected, even if it means by police checked volunteers. Offer an incentive of free ANKC reg or something like that in return. Agree with the problem about breeders having litters stolen. Updated post to remove response that was off topic. Edited March 7, 2012 by poochmad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Particular clauses from the code of ethics that are regularly violated are: *Breeding "only" to improve the quality of the breed *Striving to eliminate hereditary diseases *Providing a vaccination certificate to new puppy owners (i.e. some breeders do not vaccinate prior to rehoming puppies) *Selling dogs or puppies that are not in good health (e.g. selling dogs with parasites) *Not providing documentation regarding dietary and other requirements for the breed Does each State's Kennel Association have a Complaints process? And is there something built into membership regulations that includes situations in which membership could be cancelled, due to regularly not upholding the ethical behaviours required? After not replying to a Kennel Association's request to Show Cause about whatever, to a level of satisfaction. If so, do people applying for membership have to sign their agreement to such Conditions, in the first place? My own experiences with registered breeders has been confined to a couple of breeds. In those cases, I've wished there was the opposite available. I'd have liked a means of registering my satisfaction and admiration for the work and attitude of those breeders. Edited March 5, 2012 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 When I first got my breeders permit with the local council (before amalgation): To be eligible: Current member of CCCQ with recognised prefix Signatures of all bounding neighbours to my property not objecting to me breeding dogs Apply for the permit with specified fee and be ready for an inspection by a council officer This involved him coming out, seeing where I was planning on whelping the puppies, the fences and yards and/or any kennels met council regulations (ie buildings off boundary fences etc), how I disposed of faeces and how I kept food stuffs free from vermin. Also to check the dogs were registered and appeared in good health. Second part of having this permit was a yearly inspection by council officers to guarantee I was keepign up with the above. While some may see this as the big stick.. Personally I did not mind. I knew I was doing the right thing and it was good council came out to make sure I met with the standards laid down. (Also any one else planning on breeding were also hopefully doing the right thing). Brisbane City Council: You have to be a member of Dogs Qld with a registered prefix. Hand over your $180 and there is your permit. No inspection. You can keep 4 dogs on the property by right as long as they did not create a nuisence. I had a 600sqm property. Where I was I had 5 acres and were allowed to keep 6 dogs by right. Some councils do not have a breeder permit, although they are looking at devising one, but have other tough dog laws and permits for more than 2 dogs are hard to get. In recent years in my breed and I have said this in other threads, there is an increasing number of ANKC registered breeders who are out there breeding inferior dogs based on colour. Why?? Coloured border collies can fetch twice as much as a black/white. Not because they are special or better any thing noble like that.. Because they are a different colour. They are using inferior dogs, not health testing properly and pumping out litter after litter and then rehoming the bitch and doing the same. If they cannot keep the dog, they "foster" it out with the proviso that it returns for X number of litters. Sometimes even charging the person a full sale amount for the priviledge of having one of their crappy dogs. Only to lose the bitch for up to 4-6 months while she is put into whelp. Again Why?? We cannot keep everything we breed to breed on for, so many breeder "stash" dogs in pet homes. Many breeders do not charge the puppy "buyer" for a stash arrangement, and some will offer incentives to them to be a party to this. It also keeps the numbers down on your property, so if you are ever inspected, you always have your "quota" of animals there and are not over numbers, while still maintaining a healthy breeding program. Ever wonder why some breeders in the puppy listings can have a permanent ad on there for puppies? When I first joined DOL back in 2002. It was much different to now. The classifieds were decent breeders and most had pretty good ethics. Now, as all you have to have to post an ad on there is ANKC prefix (and pay a membership for extra dog profiles). It used to be good advertising. Now, it has been taken over by the colour breeders and bad breeders advertising poor quality litter after litter. Any new breeder coming up is pretty much a colour breeder using the same bloodlines of inferior stock and doubling up on the same dogs with the same genetic faults and the poor unsuspecting puppy buyer is none the wiser until a few years down the track. I recently went to Sydney to mate my bitch. I stayed with a friend who has this almighty soft spot for chocolate border collies. All good sense and reason goes out the window when there is a chocolate border collie on offer. Don't get me wrong, she just spent over $10,000 on a dog because of immune related health issues. The dog is now blind, but alive. She bought a puppy from one of these colour breeders last year. It is currently 9 months old. She bought it for agility as she is keen into this sport and her two older dogs are up in Masters. At nine months old, this dog is dumb as. Thick as 10 bricks. It has massive missing pigment from its nose (which should be a solid colour), and it has slipping hocks so badly, you only have to touch them lightly and they fall inwards. No agility dog at all. It is also closely bred on some of the dogs behind her other one who suffered immune issues.. There is a good chance it will suffer something in the future too. She approached the breeder with these. THe breeder knew at the beginning the dog was for agility and advertises her dogs are suitable for this (presuming here they know what they are looking at structurally). She will take the dog back, and replace the dog with a pup from one of her FIVE (yes FIVE) current litters of puppies ON THE GROUND. The new pup is a merle which apparently is a better pedigree than the chocolate one and the breeder is wanting an extra $700 for the dog, PLUS to pay for its vaccination, microchip and worming (not to mention freight from Qld to Sydney for new puppy and freight of existing dog from Syd - Qld). The original purchase price of chocolate dog was $1200 on Main Register. If the dog was to be sold and not returned to breeder, the breeder expected $200 back from the sale of the dog. The dog was not to be onsold on the main registration (however it was sold on MR in the first place??). The buyer paid up front for this dog as a puppy the full $1200 plus freight. Similar stories I have heard of many of the other colour breeders operating up here. What does the CCCQ do about it?? Nothing... Another bitch who is 4 years old is currently up for sale on the mature dogs list. She has already had 4 litters and the breeder is asking $800 for her not desexed. Given we cannot breed a litter until the bitch is 12 months of age... In 3 years - 4 litters. Also take into consideration we are not supposed to do more than 2 litters per 18 months. Is this not puppy farming???? This same breeder also is producing animals with significant pigment loss on the nose, and if you look at the photos of some of the puppies on their webpage, they look sickly and underfed. Black/white animals should have full pigment by 8 weeks of age. Again this breeder is only interested in breeding colour and not quality. What is quality? They obviously believe they are producing quality pets.. But where is a "standard" on general health quality.I know there is the breed standard and this is what we should be (subjectively) breeding towards. If this is the calibre of the new ANKC breeders, no wonder the old ethical ones are getting out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Mita, I know someone who did go through with the proper chanels with Dogs Qld. They really had a cut and dry case. Yet CCCQ went back on their own constitution and favoured the other party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Mita, I know someone who did go through with the proper chanels with Dogs Qld. They really had a cut and dry case. Yet CCCQ went back on their own constitution and favoured the other party. That doesn't sound good, Mystiqview! The only way to keep ethical behaviours alive & well, is to have a Complaints process that works....& where those who don't do them on a regular or serious basis, get their membership cancelled. Would there be any role for the breed clubs to have membership lists of breeders who take what they do seriously & ethically? Once again, my experience with only a few breeds, is that the Breed Clubs have been great. (Take a bow, Sheltie Club of Qld, Tibetan Spaniel Clubs of Victoria & NSW and Poodle Club of Qld). It seems such a shame if the excellent work of those breeders get overshadowed by those who don't. Edited March 5, 2012 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 There is another breeder whom a number of us put in stat decs for. THey were suspended from CCCQ from others already putting in stat decs. The problem then is, the CCCQ cannot act on the new round of stat decs as the person is not a member... Anything then like this... CCCQ say it is a "civil matter" and do not have any part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog_fan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Maybe you could set up a blog and out them so the unsuspecting public are made aware of all their crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korbin13 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Maybe an education campaign for puppy buyers? They are the ones that are buying, if they find something suspect they can report them to the appropriate place. Lots of people have no idea about the right way to buy a puppy or what to do if something isn't right, probably because there isn't a lot of awareness on the subject. I understand that it easy to hop on the net and find out but let's face it, most don't until something goes wrong. An education campaign to raise awareness would help. Not sure who would be the correct organisation to do something like that but I am sure you guys do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showpony Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Hi, What annoys me is Registered Breeders who leave dogs that they have breed, abandoned in shelters and pounds........whilst I understand not everyone has the room for a rescue but after being contacted dont even bother to other any help or a donation for a dog that they have brought into the world........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Unfortunately, the word ethical means different things to different people. What will, for example, looking at their house tell you? My sister got a couple of puppies from a "lovely breeder" and inspected the premises yet I'm convinced that the person was likely a broker. She met the "dam" of the puppies. Yet I didn't inspect my wheatens' breeder's premises because he was in another state. I didn't meet him until he brought Grumpy to live with me over six years later. He's the most ethical person I know, let alone an ethical breeder. Just how does someone unfamiliar with pedigree dog breeding tell the bad from the good by how the breeder's premises look or by viewing the supposed sire and dam? Truth is, you can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Particular clauses from the code of ethics that are regularly violated are: *Breeding "only" to improve the quality of the breed *Striving to eliminate hereditary diseases *Providing a vaccination certificate to new puppy owners (i.e. some breeders do not vaccinate prior to rehoming puppies) *Selling dogs or puppies that are not in good health (e.g. selling dogs with parasites) *Not providing documentation regarding dietary and other requirements for the breed There are problems with some of these. Who decides what improving the quality of the breed? Breed standards open to interpretation and if someone breeds for performance not the show ring are they unethical? How do you prove some one isn't striving to eliminate hereditary disease or knew there dog carried a disease if there are no DNA or other tests for carriers. For some people breeding a carrier to a clear is a sin. The 3rd and 5th are are easy to prove and definite no nos. Selling a dog in ill health can be harder to prove particularly parasites if the pup isn't checked by an independent person such as a vet on the way home. How can you prove the pup got fleas from the breeders an not its new home? I am not trying to defend the real unethical breeders but just point out a few problems. The CCs can only act on information given to them and then only against their members, as in the case Mystiqview stated where they cannot act against a non member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 There is another breeder whom a number of us put in stat decs for. THey were suspended from CCCQ from others already putting in stat decs. The problem then is, the CCCQ cannot act on the new round of stat decs as the person is not a member... Anything then like this... CCCQ say it is a "civil matter" and do not have any part of it. They can't act if the person is no longer a member as its not illegal to breed dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Undeniably, there are registered breeders engaging in unethical practices. Of course, puppy buyers should proceed with caution, inspect a breeder's premises and the puppies (and parents) in question, and support (or otherwise) breeders with their dollar. But, unfortunately, there are plenty of people who will buy questionable puppies, from unsanitary premises, from unethical people, and think they are doing the right thing because they're 'registered' with the ANKC. Unethical everythings are everywhere. It happens. Get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 surely that defeats the purpose of having a controlling body meh...people are doing the wrong thing but who cares Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Hi, What annoys me is Registered Breeders who leave dogs that they have breed, abandoned in shelters and pounds........whilst I understand not everyone has the room for a rescue but after being contacted dont even bother to other any help or a donation for a dog that they have brought into the world........ Yes quite. As someone who runs a breed rescue, there is a particular registered breeder who seems to sell their dogs to just anyone that can pay and we keep getting their dogs from these unsuitable homes. Yes, we can rehome them but the dogs have had to deal with an unsuitable environment for some length of time or the pound .... I've contacted this particular breeder to be told they are not interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 My own experiences with registered breeders has been confined to a couple of breeds. In those cases, I've wished there was the opposite available. I'd have liked a means of registering my satisfaction and admiration for the work and attitude of those breeders. This is a great idea, perhaps we should be pushing the state associations to allow for puppy buyers to provide feedback - The association could send out forms much like car manufacturers do when you get a car - asking for feedback as to the standard of the car dealer as well as for servicing. Even offering the first year free membership of the association to the new puppy buyer as an incentive, thus perhaps increasing membership for the future. Nowdays as membership has to have photo id means that unethical breeders would not be able to put in false forms to stack this system. Feedback ratings could then be given to breeders by the association - general comments from these then because available for the public to view. This would create a positive approach to breeders and Associations can then make recommendations to public - rather than trying to highlight the negatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 My own experiences with registered breeders has been confined to a couple of breeds. In those cases, I've wished there was the opposite available. I'd have liked a means of registering my satisfaction and admiration for the work and attitude of those breeders. I didn't say this - mita did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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