Pig Dogs

[erinonthefarm]

My husband is a keen hunter, and I was reading his shooting magazine out of interest and boredom the other day and noticed there were articles on breeding pig dogs. Obviously they aren't purebred let alone pedigree but they are trying to develop a standard and there is even the Bull Arab where the enthusiasts are trying to get the breed recognised by the AKC and have developed a standard that when I read it sounded very much like the standard for any other pedigree dog. I just wonder what other people think about this?

Who gets to decide if a type of dog can become a breed, is there a pedigree dog breed that fits the bill for hunting or is it people just liking to experiment?

[BJean]

My husband is a keen hunter, and I was reading his shooting magazine out of interest and boredom the other day and noticed there were articles on breeding pig dogs. Obviously they aren't purebred let alone pedigree but they are trying to develop a standard and there is even the Bull Arab where the enthusiasts are trying to get the breed recognised by the AKC and have developed a standard that when I read it sounded very much like the standard for any other pedigree dog. I just wonder what other people think about this?

Who gets to decide if a type of dog can become a breed is there a pedigree dog breed that fits the bill for hunting or is it people just liking to experiment?

Who gets to decide: generally the dogs and the people around them.

Environment and culture impact the selective process of a breed. Therefore a hunting dog specifically bred for pigs and utilized in the Australian environment (ie people, landscape and other animals) would be unique to all other hunting dogs.

Edited March 3, 2012 by lilli

[Blackdogs]

My husband is a keen hunter, and I was reading his shooting magazine out of interest and boredom the other day and noticed there were articles on breeding pig dogs. Obviously they aren't purebred let alone pedigree but they are trying to develop a standard and there is even the Bull Arab where the enthusiasts are trying to get the breed recognised by the AKC and have developed a standard that when I read it sounded very much like the standard for any other pedigree dog. I just wonder what other people think about this?

Who gets to decide if a type of dog can become a breed is there a pedigree dog breed that fits the bill for hunting or is it people just liking to experiment?

Who gets to decide: generally the dogs and the people around them.

Environment and culture impact the selective process of a breed. Therefore a hunting dog specifically bred for pigs and utilized in the Australian environment (ie people, landscape and other animals) would be unique to all other hunting dogs.

Good answer. A dog isn't a breed when some governing body decide that's it's a breed. Breeds were around long before National Kennel Councils. A breed is a type that breeds true to function and form.

[Crisovar]

Good answer. A dog isn't a breed when some governing body decide that's it's a breed. Breeds were around long before National Kennel Councils. A breed is a type that breeds true to function and form.

Yes, and there are many Breeds that are not recognised breeds by any number of organisations, doesn't make them any less a Breed.

[espinay2]

Murray River Curlies for example.

Personally I have no problem with this type of breed development - they are breeding a functional dog for a specific environment and purpose where there is a very particular need.

This is closer to how breeds have developed over the centuries than some other more recent 'popular' examples.

[Diva]

Murray River Curlies for example.

Personally I have no problem with this type of breed development - they are breeding a functional dog for a specific environment and purpose where there is a very particular need.

Neither do I, when it is done thoughtfully and is not driven by profit or whim.

[erinonthefarm]

Murray River Curlies for example.

Personally I have no problem with this type of breed development - they are breeding a functional dog for a specific environment and purpose where there is a very particular need.

Neither do I, when it is done thoughtfully and is not driven by profit or whim.

Thanks everyone, yes the profit is what makes the distinction between this sort of cross breeding and the "oodle" breeders. Thats what I was wondering but also, out of all the breeds that are recognised is there really no breed that does the job already. Ridgebacks is one breed that immediatly springs to mind

[Nekhbet]

Thanks everyone, yes the profit is what makes the distinction between this sort of cross breeding and the "oodle" breeders. Thats what I was wondering but also, out of all the breeds that are recognised is there really no breed that does the job already. Ridgebacks is one breed that immediatly springs to mind

Pig hunting is a niche of its own, some people try to get purebreeds but they come to the two biggest problems

1) most pedigrees dont have the instinct in them, and most hunters want pups from proven animals

2) most breeders are mortified at the prospect of a dog going to a hunting home and wont sell them a pup (saying that there is a few that hunt with their own dogs)

Pedigree is form over function. And the expense - pig dogs you can easily pick up for a few hundred, you know the parents are good workers and the pups have been bred with that in mind. It's not totally uncommon to see a purebred in the ranks but most will be purpose bred for the job. There are 3 different types of working pig dogs, the finder/holder which tracks it down and holds onto the pig until the hunter comes, the bailer which will just run it down and bail it up for the boar to be shot and the holder which just goes in at the last minute to help hold the pig down.

[erinonthefarm]

Thanks Nekhbet, makes sense.

[Rozzie]

Ridgebacks just find/hold.

[StaffordLUV]

i have a deep love for Bull arabs and to be honest i hope they dont become a registered breed, because then people will want to show them and thus another dog down the gurgler as far as function goes

[Liebhunde]

Too ttrue...

[BlackJaq]

This makes me wonder what will happen to any breed created in this manner and for this purpose regarding BSL, seeing as NSW for example regards any dog that is physically used to bring down prey as a dangerous dog, to be treated and housed in the same fashion as restricted breeds (muzzled on walks, concrete floor pen, 6 foot fence etc, I believe they even need padlocks on pens?). At least this was how it was treated last time I checked (it has been 2 years or so, might be different now).

That kind of makes me sad for this new breed already and almost makes me wish that they didn't make any efforts at registering any such breed officially, just in case they end up in the same legal straits as APBT and mixed breed bullies without papers to say they are not APBT.

Other than that, I do think this is a very legitimate way to purpose create a breed, though I don't know how long it would take for them to breed "true to standard" as many pig dogs unite quite a few different types and breeds of dog lol I guess all breeds had to start somewhere, though, I suppose.

Edited March 4, 2012 by BlackJaq

[StaffordLUV]

Bull arabs have been around for a very long time and there are people who only breed BAs and they do breed true.

Of there are people that cross them and still call them BAs but the BAs association are setting up a DNA data base to help with that.

They dont actually look anything like a pitbull or bull breed the only thing they have in common is the Bull at the front of their name.

And that bull terriers played a part in the original founding dogs.

They are a wonderful breed and one of the best dogs i have ever owned.

I have never met one i didnt like or trust :)

I would have to say my girl was simply THE best dog i have ever owned.

[BlackJaq]

They dont actually look anything like a pitbull or bull breed the only thing they have in common is the Bull at the front of their name.

I know, my point was that this breed will "officially" be a hunting dog intended to take down large game, regardless of looks, this will, by many councils and even some states, be considered a "dangerous" dog breed, as pig dogs that will hold prey are already classified as dangerous dogs and to be treated as such.

What they are really like or what their appearance is will not really matter in this case, unfortunately

I am just anticipating all the heartbreak and am kind of thinking that not registering them as a breed may make it easier on them and their owners. Of course everyone is free to do what they like and I am not saying that a breed like ths should not be registered. I think BSL will be a problem, not the breed itself.

[WreckitWhippet]

There is no such thing as a "dangerous dog breed ". If you use your dog to hunt, other than small vermin, then it is automatically classed as dangerous and must be housed as such.

You can still breed dogs for hunting, it's only when you've used them to do so that they become "dangerous"

[sandgrubber]

Look at the pedigrees of the dogs running the Iditarod (yes, they just took off, GO MUSHERS!!!!). Not much purity. But they do the job.

[LizT]

Thanks everyone, yes the profit is what makes the distinction between this sort of cross breeding and the "oodle" breeders. Thats what I was wondering but also, out of all the breeds that are recognised is there really no breed that does the job already. Ridgebacks is one breed that immediatly springs to mind

Pig hunting is a niche of its own, some people try to get purebreeds but they come to the two biggest problems

1) most pedigrees dont have the instinct in them, and most hunters want pups from proven animals

2) most breeders are mortified at the prospect of a dog going to a hunting home and wont sell them a pup (saying that there is a few that hunt with their own dogs)

Pedigree is form over function. And the expense - pig dogs you can easily pick up for a few hundred, you know the parents are good workers and the pups have been bred with that in mind. It's not totally uncommon to see a purebred in the ranks but most will be purpose bred for the job. There are 3 different types of working pig dogs, the finder/holder which tracks it down and holds onto the pig until the hunter comes, the bailer which will just run it down and bail it up for the boar to be shot and the holder which just goes in at the last minute to help hold the pig down.

And without sounding too cynical (because I really am trying not to be, I am thinking in terms of good old fashion outback practibility) a purebred is a big fiancial outlay for what is essentially a dangerous job and does put the dog at risk of injury or even death. Those feral pig are extremely dangerous.

[BlackJaq]

There is no such thing as a "dangerous dog breed ". If you use your dog to hunt, other than small vermin, then it is automatically classed as dangerous and must be housed as such.

You can still breed dogs for hunting, it's only when you've used them to do so that they become "dangerous"

I did not say there was such a thing as a "dangerous dog breed", and proper reading of my posts may have helped you understand my point.

In my opinion, with the current state of hysteria, it will not take long for someone to start targeting this new breed, seeing as now this group of "dangerous" dogs (i.e. pig hunting dogs) is making it easy for them to target it, by registering animals as a member of a breed, where before they were simply unidentifyable crossbreds.

A "dangerous" dog can be any breed, and restrictions on breeding of certain breeds only apply to restricted breeds, not breeds that "dangerous dogs" in general are members of, as I would expect most people on DOL to know as this seems to be a fairly common topic in this forum (BSL that is). So obviously, yes, you can breed hunting dogs. There are no restrictions on breeding RRs, Wolfhounds, Pointers, Weims and other pure breeds that are potentially used to bring down an animal, I do not know where you believe I may have said that the breeding is restricted? A "dangerous dog" and a "restricted breed" are two different things.

Anyway, my intention was not to start a BSL discussion in the thread, but people do seem to be a little naive as to the possible implications that something like this may have and some people may, after the fact, be sorry to have put their animals in the the firing line, even if that is a totally unintended and unfair consequence of simply creating a breed name for them to enjoy their animals under.

This has nothing to do with the animals themselves, this is simply a danger of being a dog owner in the current climate, as I am sure many owners of certain breeds will be able to confirm, be they bully breeds, mastiffs, hunting dogs, or dogs of a certain type or look.

This is sad, but true.