Help Me Learn - Dog Behaviour Aggressive Or Not?

[Alyosha]

Thanks Greyt for your amazingly prompt chart posting! :D

[Greytmate]

I just want to say something else very important about dog behaviour. Possibly not relevant but I will say it anyway.

Dogs sniffing each other's bums is good.

Please everyone stop telling your dog off for smelling another dog's bum. It isn't disgusting. It is the doggy way to say "Hi! How are you today?" It is normal, social and therefore desirable. :)

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Thanks Greytmate

I keep telling people who tell their dogs off - "but it's being a DOG"

And being told off for greeting can back fire - ie that dog can blame the dog it was trying to greet for the sudden pain and grief it gets from the owner. And that could progress to "I'll get the other dog (to back off) before it can get me".

I do love the charts.

[Aidan3]

I just want to say something else very important about dog behaviour. Possibly not relevant but I will say it anyway.

Dogs sniffing each other's bums is good.

Please everyone stop telling your dog off for smelling another dog's bum. It isn't disgusting. It is the doggy way to say "Hi! How are you today?" It is normal, social and therefore desirable. :)

One of the happiest moments I had with this foster was when he started sniffing bums.

[Erny]

IMO hackles indicate uncertainty. That "uncertainty" can range anywhere from 'just a little unsure but reasonably ok with it' to 'quite fearful'. The stronger the emotion the more the pilo erect (another description meaning 'hackles') moves from tail/rump up towards and over the shoulders.

Pilo erection can occur during play as well. I still believe it is a signal of uncertainty. It could simply mean "yipes!! I better move or he is going to 'tig' me" during a game of chasey or something, not necessarily something so nervewracking to the dog that it wants to stop play. But in other instances it is just that - a signal that the dog wants out (or wants the stimulus to go away). I'm not so sure that "arousal" is really a descriptive enough word for it, but this is just my opinion.

Many other body language parts (eyes; ear set; forehead smooth/wrinkled; stance; tail set; tail wag; what's happening in the environment; etc) should be taken into account all at the same time to be able to read things in context.

Of all the books I have (and I have Turid Rugaas as well) I particularly like Brenda Aloff's Canine Body Language. This is a fairly large book with a lot of real life photo shots and Brenda gives a good explanation to them.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Erny

[Saffioraire]

Don't know if she has exact relevant info for this case but if you look up Patricia McConnell she might have something. I love everything of hers I have read/ watched so far and her descriptions are priceless and easy to envisage in your mind (if your a visual type learner like me)

Sounds like you've got a great dog btw. I think regardless of your own dog, having 2 dogs coming at you flat stick would intimidate anyone - I feel uncomfortable it when it's my own dogs coming at me! Can only imagine how intimidating it would be for a dog.

[Greytmate]

IMO hackles indicate uncertainty. That "uncertainty" can range anywhere from 'just a little unsure but reasonably ok with it' to 'quite fearful'. The stronger the emotion the more the pilo erect (another description meaning 'hackles') moves from tail/rump up towards and over the shoulders.

Pilo erection can occur during play as well. I still believe it is a signal of uncertainty. It could simply mean "yipes!! I better move or he is going to 'tig' me" during a game of chasey or something, not necessarily something so nervewracking to the dog that it wants to stop play. But in other instances it is just that - a signal that the dog wants out (or wants the stimulus to go away). I'm not so sure that "arousal" is really a descriptive enough word for it, but this is just my opinion.

Many other body language parts (eyes; ear set; forehead smooth/wrinkled; stance; tail set; tail wag; what's happening in the environment; etc) should be taken into account all at the same time to be able to read things in context.

Of all the books I have (and I have Turid Rugaas as well) I particularly like Brenda Aloff's Canine Body Language. This is a fairly large book with a lot of real life photo shots and Brenda gives a good explanation to them.

That is why I do better with videos than descriptions. :)

[Alyosha]

And a wagging tail does nt alway mean a friendly dog! I used to have to use that is school safety lectures, t's amazing how many people thing waggng is a default for come on and pat me...

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

The standard translation I've heard for a play bow is "everything I do after you accept my invitation to play is just pretend".

Is interesting dogs have a concept of both "fair play" and "just pretend".

[Guest RosieFT]

I just want to say something else very important about dog behaviour. Possibly not relevant but I will say it anyway.

Dogs sniffing each other's bums is good.

Please everyone stop telling your dog off for smelling another dog's bum. It isn't disgusting. It is the doggy way to say "Hi! How are you today?" It is normal, social and therefore desirable. :)

ok, i get that, but on occasion I have got rosie to 'move on' with a toy or distraction as she is going really over board and it is clear the other dog has had enough - sitting down, moving away etc. I don't know if it was a dog in season, but once Rosie was SO interested in the back end, she just would not stop.

Should i still just leave it to the other dog to tell her to back off? it has only happened on 2 occasions and i assumed there was something "extra special" going on LOL.

[Guest RosieFT]

IMO hackles indicate uncertainty. That "uncertainty" can range anywhere from 'just a little unsure but reasonably ok with it' to 'quite fearful'. The stronger the emotion the more the pilo erect (another description meaning 'hackles') moves from tail/rump up towards and over the shoulders.

Pilo erection can occur during play as well. I still believe it is a signal of uncertainty. It could simply mean "yipes!! I better move or he is going to 'tig' me" during a game of chasey or something, not necessarily something so nervewracking to the dog that it wants to stop play. But in other instances it is just that - a signal that the dog wants out (or wants the stimulus to go away). I'm not so sure that "arousal" is really a descriptive enough word for it, but this is just my opinion.

Many other body language parts (eyes; ear set; forehead smooth/wrinkled; stance; tail set; tail wag; what's happening in the environment; etc) should be taken into account all at the same time to be able to read things in context.

Of all the books I have (and I have Turid Rugaas as well) I particularly like Brenda Aloff's Canine Body Language. This is a fairly large book with a lot of real life photo shots and Brenda gives a good explanation to them.

Thank you for that. Is it this one? http://www.fishpond.com.au/Books/Canine-Body-Language-Brenda-Aloff/9781929242351?cf=3&rid=605617722&i=1&keywords=Brenda+Aloff+Canine+Body+Language

I looked at it earlier, but it had one bad review re the quality of the pictures and was unsure whether to get it. "A large thick book which could have been very good to excellent had they illustrated it using either a better printing process, clearer pictures and/or supplemented it with line drawings based on the pictures. In many cases one is left in doubt as to exactly what you are supposed to be looking for or at."

But if you think the photos are clear, i will get it. :-)

[Guest RosieFT]

Thank you. Have found it on bookdepository and fishpond (FP cheaper though! :-) will order it shortly.

off topic - is that a border terrier? i think they look gorgeous! Do you have to strip their coats?

Yes and yes! His coat was completely blown when I took that photo but I love it...and him????

Toshman - i hope you didn't think i asked the questions because of your extremely cute photo of your dog!! it was more a general question re the breed and what is involved in their care!! sorry if you took it that way LOL.

[Guest RosieFT]

Thanks Saff... i will look them up as well.

When you have a small/medium dog, the larger dogs just look like if they were so inclined, they could just chomp the little one in half with one bite! It makes it more of a concern when they are bigger, to me anyway!

Thanks for all the replies. I think my instinct was right with this dog, although she was ok.. after looking and reading through the posts I think it could have gone the other way had rosie reacted. The main thing, i think, was how she ran up and stopped and stood so tall and STILL.. no tail moving.. closed mouth. Really close.

But then the person on here has a dog that behaves the same and she says it is friendly! so who knows.

It is difficult to figure it out, as so many of you have pointed out, there is often way more to it than the way the dog is looking. So videos are more useful for sure.

[ChristineX]

That description sounds so much like Duke - standing still, tall,mouth closed ---- he is trying to figure out what to do next - run away or towards. If the other dog gives clear "friend" signals (like so clear blind freddy could see them) you can see his brain tick over, and then, OH - you want to be friends - and he'll playbow.

On the other hand, if the other dog is more inclined to 'attitude' or 'I'm top dog' - thats trouble and I walk Duke away. There are reasons he never gets off leash, his canine vocabulary just isn't much good.

I've been learning from Reactive Rover classes, but there is still so much more to learn!!

[toshman]

Thank you. Have found it on bookdepository and fishpond (FP cheaper though! :-) will order it shortly.

off topic - is that a border terrier? i think they look gorgeous! Do you have to strip their coats?

Yes and yes! His coat was completely blown when I took that photo but I love it...and him????

Toshman - i hope you didn't think i asked the questions because of your extremely cute photo of your dog!! it was more a general question re the breed and what is involved in their care!! sorry if you took it that way LOL.

No apologies needed RosieFT :laugh: I wasn't making excuses for him :) Generally a BT needs stripping a couple of times a year - hand-stripping is best - but if they're in show coat they need quite a bit more work.

[Dame Aussie]

I second Turid Rugaas stuff.

My dog likes watching the Calming Sigals DVD.

A polite dog greeting, involves a slow indirect circular approach, with some ground sniffing, some lip licking, much avoiding direct eye contact - ie looking anywhere but the dog they want to greet, and generally getting lower to the ground - to some this looks like an ambush stalk but if it's not a direct approach - its actually an attempt to appear small and non threatening.

My dog goes the whole hog, and will start crawling and roll over - ie the most friendly non threating invitation a dog can make. If the sniffing goes well, she may offer a play bow and invitation to play chasey or wrestle. Depends what the other dog says.

Unfortunately some dogs never learn body language - not enough time spent with other dogs when they were puppies is my guess. Sometimes it's the breeding ie some breeds do the direct bouncy full on play greeting no matter what they're looking at.

So they may approach directly but not be agressive. But anxious dogs will not understand this because it looks aggressive.

Some dogs do the stand over tactic to see if the other dog will submit (roll over or turn their head away). If the other dog submits, it's all good but if not, there can be a fight, which is no fun for anyone. It's not polite dog behaviour and I would not let my dog do the stand over tactic and I avoid owners who let their dogs do it. My dog sometimes submits to this, and sometmies she tells them off. Especially if they stomp on her while she's rolled over.

It is possible for owners to teach their dogs to be more polite. You start by preventing any direct approach for greeting. If your dog likes doing that - put it on lead when you see a new dog, and supervise the greeting. Get your dog to drop and show some self control before it can sniff tails.

Some dogs just want to tear the other dog apart and that kind of shows in their teeth - lips back, ears up, hackles up, very upright and very direct approach. If you see that, your best chance of saving your dog is to block the aggressive dog with your body, but you have a good chance of being bitten too. It's up to you. Humans are taller than most dogs, if you stand up tall and walk forward and get very loud, some aggressive dogs will back off. Playful direct approach dogs will slow up.

For some direct approaches from other dogs I get my dog to go in a drop. I also do this when talking to an owner of a fearful dog, We both get low we stay a safe distance and we let the fearful dog decide if they want to say hello or not and we don't force it, ie they have plenty of opportunity to stay away if that's what they want, but me and my dog show them zero threat.

I don't know how I tell the aggressive dogs from the rude ones exactly. But I would be unlikely to let my dog off lead to run and save herself because that sometimes triggers more prey/kill drive in the aggressive dog. I go for the loud shouting blocking myself and I tend to grab the other dog and push it away.

And we stay away from dogs that are lunging, barking and snapping at the end of their lead. There is a reason dogs like that are on lead.

Great response and very interesting you described rebus exactly in part of that he has no manners with others dogs and never has and yet he has been to dog school since a pup so always been around other dogs, he really is terrible it is something we are working in with my dog trainers. If he sees another dog when we are out he is just totally focused in it and it's so hard to break that focus. Fingers crosses we'll get there eventually!

Yes, our Mosley is like this too. He just LOVES other dogs. He pulls on his lead and cries, he is very good when playing, gentle etc with smaller dogs, but he is big and it's something we're constantly working on, and thank goodness, have seen improvement.

He also went to puppy school, obedience training etc but has always been like this. Lili, she's easy, couldn't care less :laugh:

[Kirty]

I find it hard to distinguish between friendly 'posturing' and 'i will go you if you move' posturing. We had two dogs at work recently who greeted each other in the waiting room. Both owners were watching closely and one even said "I'm not sure which way this is going to go!". Both dogs were stiff legged, tails upright and wagging slightly, licking lips, but sniffing each other. I felt that there was either a play bow imminent or a lunge! In the end (thankfully) both dog's owners went their seperate ways. There was absolutely no aggression shown but I found it hard to interpret their behaviour.

Another time I had to ask a client to move away when she insisted on trying to let her huge dog 'meet' a very young pup in the waiting room. I was holding the pup's lead while the owner did paperwork and the big dog was very stiff, licking it's lips and staring very intently at the pup, who was sitting behind my legs. To me, it seemed almost like predatory behaviour and made me very nervous. The owner said he just wanted to meet the pup but that was not the vibe I was getting!

[Jigsaw]

This is another good book -Barbara Handelman. Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Handbook (2008).

This is a brief but good video

There is also a series by Jean Donaldson on YouTube. There are six parts, this is part one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VmWizZueFQ&feature=related

[dee lee]

Thanks Saff... i will look them up as well.

When you have a small/medium dog, the larger dogs just look like if they were so inclined, they could just chomp the little one in half with one bite! It makes it more of a concern when they are bigger, to me anyway!

Thanks for all the replies. I think my instinct was right with this dog, although she was ok.. after looking and reading through the posts I think it could have gone the other way had rosie reacted. The main thing, i think, was how she ran up and stopped and stood so tall and STILL.. no tail moving.. closed mouth. Really close.

But then the person on here has a dog that behaves the same and she says it is friendly! so who knows.

It is difficult to figure it out, as so many of you have pointed out, there is often way more to it than the way the dog is looking. So videos are more useful for sure.

I think it's sensible to be wary. If your instincts tell you a situation could go either way, it probably can & it's best to err on the side of caution.

Interestingly I had a similar situation with a young GSD recently too.

There are 2 of them that go separately to my local park, both stunning & well behaved & this day I came across them both being introduced.

Well, being young dogs they both got a little overexcited & scuffled a little. Which excited Honey who ran near them (the silly twit), causing one of them to chase her. It was over stimulated & TBH I got quite nervous that it was going to get serious (it had a small grab at her) but I hoped like hell it was as well behaved as I'd always assumed it to be & I barked at it "enough". Luckily it worked, it stopped & it's owner was able to get it back under control.

But it scared the crap out of me. I can completely relate to your fear of the damage a large dog can do. Honey wouldn't have had a chance & she was almost as big!!

[k9angel]

Hackles generally indicate a high state of arousal but read alone they don't tell you much.

They certainly don't always signal aggression.

So true, we have a big Labrador at the dog park and his hackles go up every time a new dog walks in... He is just really excited.

Once they are all together he calms down to just play...

Takoda, my sibe, puts up the hackles when she's playing with Jasmine. :laugh: