Help Me Learn - Dog Behaviour Aggressive Or Not?

[Guest RosieFT]

So in many of the threads there is a theme of 'people need to learn how to read dog posture better' etc.

Well, i genuinely would love to, but how?

I know the obvious signs, but it is the more subtle ones i am not sure about, and where is the line?

Example:

today at park two loose dogs charged across the oval right towards us. One was small terrier/companion dog cross, the other a lean, handsome GSD, both coming full pelt to us. I put Rosie on a lead and put her toy in my pocket as her focus is always 100% on toy she is often completely oblivious to things around her.

Little dog ran up tail wagging sniffing circling her.

GSD ran up, NOT stiff legged, perhaps some hackles but in the fur couldn't tell. But she definitely stood over Rosie and seemed more 'switched on' ready to react than the little dog that was relaxed.

Rosie had her front hackles up, and stayed completely still intitially, and then joined in the 3 dog sniffing circus that was going on.

Hackles on rosie went down, i took her away but dogs followed us - turned out there was no owner and i had to call the ranger.

I let rosie off leash and they seemed ok, but i noticed that when she ran to play with little dog, the GSD got very excited and ran right up to her and stood over her a bit.

To be honest, i could not really read if the GSD was looking to play or looking to see if rosie would react. ?!?! It SEEMED like it was a young dog, and she wanted to play but was a bit more intimidating in her manner.

Rosie has never been dog aggressive but i have noticed that she puts her front hackles up if she is unsure - like today when 2 dogs ran up. I have seen her complete set - along her back and at tail, when there was a strange cat in yard and she was running around, and when there was thunder and she is chasing it - she looks like a puff ball.

So, how do i read her front hackles?

Can anyone suggest any good books or dvds or something?

thanks

ETA when i said stand over her, i didn't mean literally, i mean like right up against her with her chest over... how i imagine men look/feel when they are chesting off trying to look bigger than they are.

Edited March 2, 2012 by RosieFT

[Aidan3]

ETA when i said stand over her, i didn't mean literally, i mean like right up against her with her chest over...

Not cool, and I would not invite play with that dog, but no reason to panic either. Staying calm will get you out of that situation more often than not. It sounds like Rosie deals with it fairly well.

[Sooky]

I'll be interested to hear the replies to this too as the behavior your describing in the GSD sound exactly like how my boy reacts when he sees another dog and he is the biggest sook ever :)

Just wanted to add Rebus doesn't stand over other dogs but he stands close and very tall and with his tail high.

Edited March 2, 2012 by doggylovers

[Salukifan]

Hackles generally indicate a high state of arousal but read alone they don't tell you much.

They certainly don't always signal aggression.

[Weasels]

Agree with TW, and some dogs are far quicker to put their hackles up than others. E.g. my girl will put up her front-fuzz even if she just hears a strange noise, my boy will pretty much need a cat in his backyard to get the full mohawk going (which, honestly, impresses no-one since he just looks like he stuck his paw in an electric socket. My girl on the other hand looks like she's had shark fins grafted on. She's hardcore.)

I see a number of interactions like you described between my boy and other medium-sized dogs. It is very still & close, cheek-to-cheek, then one dog will make a quick movement and check the other's reaction. If it is reciprocated they will go off and play chasey. If not and the other dog remains still usually there will be some ground-sniffing and they part ways.

Sounds like Rosie had it under control :) Some dogs you can trust to get themselves out of potential trouble, some others you need to intervene (I have one of each). I don't think body-language always tranlates across breeds among dogs either, which is why high-stepping boxers, front-approaching labradors and tail-up spitzes aren't necessarily popular with other dogs despite being absolute sweethearts.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Weasels

[megan_]

Slightly OT, but I wouldn't put a social dog on lead if I saw two off leas dogs running full pelt at her - she can't evade if she wants to and this alone could cause a fight

[Guest RosieFT]

Megan - i know, and this crossed my mind too, shall i shan't i? but in the end i figured i would rather have control of my dog - i can always let go. Once, a loong time ago, at an oval where i don't go anymore.. and i posted on here about it too, i think. There were no dogs around and i was playing fetch with rosie. people rocked up, opened their door and their dog ran straight for rosie. I have never felt so intimidated by a dog. It stopped 3m off, came fwd slowly, straight legged, hackles up, circled her... growled.. rosie just stared at her ball which she had dropped. Dog went for her and then backed off.. rosie stared at her ball... i yelled for the owners to get their dog. I had my kids playing on play equipment not far away, so couldn't leave.

It was SO tense, i didn't want rosie to move a muscle in case it triggered something. and the WHOLE time, rosie was oblivious 110% focused on the ball. amazing.

The owners eventually came up and told me i was an idiot and their dog played with dogs all the time and it was just playing. hmmmmmMMMM.

Oh, also if a dog 'went' for rosie, I am not sure she would be submissive. At agility training there have been a few incidences over the years where dogs have scrapped and rosie gets SUPER excited and VERY interested in what is going on. Wouldn't want her to come off second best if she decided to stand her ground. So i thought i may be able to stop that if it was going to happen by taking her away. hmmmm

Thanks for the other input it is much appreciated. But apart from making mistakes and learning from them, are there any good resources i can use?

doggylovers - with this dog, pretty sure it wanted to play but i felt it could go either way. And when rosie was off leash, and moved quickly, its focus was so absolutely on her and it didn't 'feel' like a relaxed, play focus. I know there is no way for anyone to say, as they were not there. But it is frustrating when I am just not sure. I did put rosie back on leash as i didn't like it.

In the end i had the GSD on my foxie's leash while i waited for ranger and rosie and little dog were fine.

i don't know, little dogs seem pretty easy to read - they bristle and snap LOL... bigger dogs, i am not so familiar with.

Thanks for responding!

Edited March 2, 2012 by RosieFT

[Alyosha]

Slightly OT, but I wouldn't put a social dog on lead if I saw two off leas dogs running full pelt at her - she can't evade if she wants to and this alone could cause a fight

What if the area is unconfined? If she tries to evade and does the bolt... Maybe I'm just used to fast running dogs...

[Guest RosieFT]

Hackles generally indicate a high state of arousal but read alone they don't tell you much.

They certainly don't always signal aggression.

That is what I thought TL, but always think it 'looks bad' when rosie does it.. i feel i need to say 'she is friendly' or something to counter act it. Not that she often gets to interact with off leash dogs, but at the dog beach where there are HEAPS of dogs, i rarely see it, but when we are out walking and a random dog runs up, they go up.

oh, her tail is often going a zillion miles an hour at the same time as the hackles. Not today though, today i think she was a bit concerned - whether she read me or just though crap who are these 2 dogs running right at me! i 'don't know! LOL

[toshman]

Oh, also if a dog 'went' for rosie, I am not sure she would be submissive. At agility training there have been a few incidences over the years where dogs have scrapped and rosie gets SUPER excited and VERY interested in what is going on. Wouldn't want her to come off second best if she decided to stand her ground. So i thought i may be able to stop that if it was going to happen by taking her away. hmmmm

Terriers do tend to do this - trying not to generalise here, but many of them are happy to join in a bit of a scrap

A little booklet which might help you is written by Turid Rugaas, called "On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals" - or anything else by her, actually! Your Rosie seems to have done alot of the right things to keep the situation calm - good for her! And good for you too, for not getting in a panic...

[Guest RosieFT]

Thank you. Have found it on bookdepository and fishpond (FP cheaper though! :-) will order it shortly.

off topic - is that a border terrier? i think they look gorgeous! Do you have to strip their coats?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I second Turid Rugaas stuff.

My dog likes watching the Calming Sigals DVD.

A polite dog greeting, involves a slow indirect circular approach, with some ground sniffing, some lip licking, much avoiding direct eye contact - ie looking anywhere but the dog they want to greet, and generally getting lower to the ground - to some this looks like an ambush stalk but if it's not a direct approach - its actually an attempt to appear small and non threatening.

My dog goes the whole hog, and will start crawling and roll over - ie the most friendly non threating invitation a dog can make. If the sniffing goes well, she may offer a play bow and invitation to play chasey or wrestle. Depends what the other dog says.

Unfortunately some dogs never learn body language - not enough time spent with other dogs when they were puppies is my guess. Sometimes it's the breeding ie some breeds do the direct bouncy full on play greeting no matter what they're looking at.

So they may approach directly but not be agressive. But anxious dogs will not understand this because it looks aggressive.

Some dogs do the stand over tactic to see if the other dog will submit (roll over or turn their head away). If the other dog submits, it's all good but if not, there can be a fight, which is no fun for anyone. It's not polite dog behaviour and I would not let my dog do the stand over tactic and I avoid owners who let their dogs do it. My dog sometimes submits to this, and sometmies she tells them off. Especially if they stomp on her while she's rolled over.

It is possible for owners to teach their dogs to be more polite. You start by preventing any direct approach for greeting. If your dog likes doing that - put it on lead when you see a new dog, and supervise the greeting. Get your dog to drop and show some self control before it can sniff tails.

Some dogs just want to tear the other dog apart and that kind of shows in their teeth - lips back, ears up, hackles up, very upright and very direct approach. If you see that, your best chance of saving your dog is to block the aggressive dog with your body, but you have a good chance of being bitten too. It's up to you. Humans are taller than most dogs, if you stand up tall and walk forward and get very loud, some aggressive dogs will back off. Playful direct approach dogs will slow up.

For some direct approaches from other dogs I get my dog to go in a drop. I also do this when talking to an owner of a fearful dog, We both get low we stay a safe distance and we let the fearful dog decide if they want to say hello or not and we don't force it, ie they have plenty of opportunity to stay away if that's what they want, but me and my dog show them zero threat.

I don't know how I tell the aggressive dogs from the rude ones exactly. But I would be unlikely to let my dog off lead to run and save herself because that sometimes triggers more prey/kill drive in the aggressive dog. I go for the loud shouting blocking myself and I tend to grab the other dog and push it away.

And we stay away from dogs that are lunging, barking and snapping at the end of their lead. There is a reason dogs like that are on lead.

[Guest RosieFT]

Thank you for taking the time to write all that MRB, very interesting and appreciated.

[Staffyluv]

Hackles generally indicate a high state of arousal but read alone they don't tell you much.

They certainly don't always signal aggression.

So true, we have a big Labrador at the dog park and his hackles go up every time a new dog walks in... He is just really excited.

Once they are all together he calms down to just play...

[Sooky]

I second Turid Rugaas stuff.

My dog likes watching the Calming Sigals DVD.

A polite dog greeting, involves a slow indirect circular approach, with some ground sniffing, some lip licking, much avoiding direct eye contact - ie looking anywhere but the dog they want to greet, and generally getting lower to the ground - to some this looks like an ambush stalk but if it's not a direct approach - its actually an attempt to appear small and non threatening.

My dog goes the whole hog, and will start crawling and roll over - ie the most friendly non threating invitation a dog can make. If the sniffing goes well, she may offer a play bow and invitation to play chasey or wrestle. Depends what the other dog says.

Unfortunately some dogs never learn body language - not enough time spent with other dogs when they were puppies is my guess. Sometimes it's the breeding ie some breeds do the direct bouncy full on play greeting no matter what they're looking at.

So they may approach directly but not be agressive. But anxious dogs will not understand this because it looks aggressive.

Some dogs do the stand over tactic to see if the other dog will submit (roll over or turn their head away). If the other dog submits, it's all good but if not, there can be a fight, which is no fun for anyone. It's not polite dog behaviour and I would not let my dog do the stand over tactic and I avoid owners who let their dogs do it. My dog sometimes submits to this, and sometmies she tells them off. Especially if they stomp on her while she's rolled over.

It is possible for owners to teach their dogs to be more polite. You start by preventing any direct approach for greeting. If your dog likes doing that - put it on lead when you see a new dog, and supervise the greeting. Get your dog to drop and show some self control before it can sniff tails.

Some dogs just want to tear the other dog apart and that kind of shows in their teeth - lips back, ears up, hackles up, very upright and very direct approach. If you see that, your best chance of saving your dog is to block the aggressive dog with your body, but you have a good chance of being bitten too. It's up to you. Humans are taller than most dogs, if you stand up tall and walk forward and get very loud, some aggressive dogs will back off. Playful direct approach dogs will slow up.

For some direct approaches from other dogs I get my dog to go in a drop. I also do this when talking to an owner of a fearful dog, We both get low we stay a safe distance and we let the fearful dog decide if they want to say hello or not and we don't force it, ie they have plenty of opportunity to stay away if that's what they want, but me and my dog show them zero threat.

I don't know how I tell the aggressive dogs from the rude ones exactly. But I would be unlikely to let my dog off lead to run and save herself because that sometimes triggers more prey/kill drive in the aggressive dog. I go for the loud shouting blocking myself and I tend to grab the other dog and push it away.

And we stay away from dogs that are lunging, barking and snapping at the end of their lead. There is a reason dogs like that are on lead.

Great response and very interesting you described rebus exactly in part of that he has no manners with others dogs and never has and yet he has been to dog school since a pup so always been around other dogs, he really is terrible it is something we are working in with my dog trainers. If he sees another dog when we are out he is just totally focused in it and it's so hard to break that focus. Fingers crosses we'll get there eventually!

[megan_]

Doggylovers - have you tried the "look at that" game?

[toshman]

Thank you. Have found it on bookdepository and fishpond (FP cheaper though! :-) will order it shortly.

off topic - is that a border terrier? i think they look gorgeous! Do you have to strip their coats?

Yes and yes! His coat was completely blown when I took that photo but I love it...and him????

[Sooky]

Doggylovers - have you tried the "look at that" game?

No but would love to hear more about that I'll try anything! If you'd prefer pm me :) i do try and get his attention have loads of treats try and make myself more interesting but once he's focused in on another dog he's like a heat seeking missile and won't look away until he's managed to meet it or it's away out of site!! The only saving grace is that he's friendly just with no manners!

[Alyosha]

There's a great chart on dog postures on page 10 of the 'officer shoots dog" thread. It's a great one, would be worth having about.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Alyosha

[Greytmate]

Good topic. In your first post you asked where the line is. I just wanted to say that 'the line' can change, and calm dogs are always going to be easier to control and predict the behaviour of than aroused dogs with their hackles up. Calming dogs down is always good (unless you are specifically training in drive).

I find it easier to analyse behaviour on a video than by a description. If anyone wants to post vids they would be an interesting as a basis for discussion.

I will post the handy charts though. :)