alpha bet Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 How important is it in the showring for correct detention. Should a dog win if missing teeth? If so how many missing is okay? Should a Challenge Cert be awarded? Should correct bite win everytime over bad bite? Do judges really look or know what they are looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 no, but it happens all the time sadly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I believe that if dog has lost teeth, not too many and has correct bite then keep showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) Depends on the breed. Depends on the judge. If a breed standard calls for full dentition and a dog has missing teeth (eg. premolars that never appeared) then you'd expect that in some breeds (where bite is essential to function) for a dog to be penalised. But each standard is different. I know some FCI judges won't even consider a dog that doesn't have full dentition regardless of whether teeth have been lost due to mishap. On the other hand, I know at least one very well awarded bitch in my own breed that has had big wins despite the fact she lost a canine. And rightly so - lovely bitch. Bite will be evident whether teeth are missing or not. No dog that doesn't have the bite specified in the breed standard should get a challenge IMO. Its a significant and IMO should be a disqualifying fault. Again, the breed standard will specify whether or not it is. Edited March 1, 2012 by Telida Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I believe that in Aussies missing teeth (as opposed to lost teeth) is quite a large issue. It's listed as a fault in the standard, but not a serious or disqualifying one, so I guess it should be judged in line with the dog as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevafollo Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 A friend and I were discussing this recently. Missing teeth in most breeds would surely be frowned upon but how many times do judges check a dogs FULL bite, 95% of the time they check the front and thats it, a dog could have 6 teeth mising up the sides and still win because of this. Im my breed a scissor bite is whats asked for in the standard, I would think a pointer with missing teeth and bad bite (under shot or over shot ect) would be quite an issue especially out in the feild. Faults: Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog, and on the dog’s ability to perform its traditional work. Personally I wouldnt show a dog with missing teeth, unless the teeth went missing due to an accident and I had the documentaion to back that up if a judge asked, and even then the dog would have to be amazing in every other way for me to bother. A judge has to take everything into consideration when judging, if in the breed standard it had a certain type of mouth as a disqualifying fault then that dog should be asked to leave the ring... if that dog is the only one of its breed no challange should be awarded. If if say two Aussies were in the ring and one had a perfect scissor bite and the other a level bite (scissor being the prefered in the breed, correct me if im wrong) I'd like to think that the judge wouldnt base his or her choice soley on that I'd like to think they would then take eveything else about those two dogs into account, its easy for a dog to have a good bite but not be of any actual quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 How important is it in the showring for correct detention. Should a dog win if missing teeth? If so how many missing is okay? Should a Challenge Cert be awarded? Should correct bite win everytime over bad bite? Do judges really look or know what they are looking for? Not all standards call for full dentition, and when they do it's sometimes desirable but not essential. Not all missing teeth are the same either - is 1 missing premolar as crucial as a missing molar? Or missing canine? If 1 premolar is not a big deal, is 2? - the answer is yes for me but it depends on the breed and it's standard. Bite I think is much more clear cut. But to say that correct bite should win everytime over bad bite ignores the other qualities of both dogs. Maybe neither should be awarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Depends on the breed. Depends on the judge. If a breed standard calls for full dentition and a dog has missing teeth (eg. premolars that never appeared) then you'd expect that in some breeds (where bite is essential to function) for a dog to be penalised. But each standard is different. I know some FCI judges won't even consider a dog that doesn't have full dentition regardless of whether teeth have been lost due to mishap. On the other hand, I know at least one very well awarded bitch in my own breed that has had big wins despite the fact she lost a canine. And rightly so - lovely bitch. Bite will be evident whether teeth are missing or not. No dog that doesn't have the bite specified in the breed standard should get a challenge IMO. Its a significant and IMO should be a disqualifying fault. Again, the breed standard will specify whether or not it is. Yes, my thoughts, too - depends on the breed standard, and what is required for the breed. *presses Like button* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) It depends on the breed (and what the standard calls for), it depends on the judge (and their preferences) and it depends on the overall quality of the dog. And yes, most judges will look (some more thoroughly than others). An outstanding dog with a not so outstanding mouth may still be considered very worthy by many judges (including FCI judges). Baby, bathwater and all that . That said, an average but nice dog with a not so outstanding mouth may find it more challenging, particularly in strong competition where everything else is relatively equal. Knowing the fault, you show at your own risk as you are asking the judges opinion - favourable or not - and need to be prepared to accept that opinion. Edited March 1, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I wouldnt show a dog with missing teeth. That may just be me though If a breed allows missing teeth go for it, but if you are breeding with an animal that has missing teeth, then you are more than likely passing that on to their progeny (if missing teeth are not allowed) From the GSD breed standard The dentition must be strong, healthy and complete (42 teeth conforming to the dentition formula) the German Shepherd Dog has a scissor bite that is, the incisors must fit scissor-like to each other so that the incisors of the upper jaw overlap those of the lower jaw in a scissor fashion. Level, over or undershot bites are faulty, as well as large gaps between the teeth. It is a fault when the incisors are placed in a straight line in the gums. The jawbones must be strongly developed so that the teeth are embedded deeply in the gum line. According to that, a gsd must have full dentition. In the specialist ring it is allowed IF there is a tooth cert and the tooth missing is from an injury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 breed standard in my breed says full dentition - major fault if not. I know one breeder who will pet home anything without full dentition, no matter how outstanding it is, others don't care and their dogs with missing teeth have gone on to get their title. Obviously not all judges check, or don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceilidh Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If the breed standard states 'full dentition' then the judge MUST check, if they don't then they obviously don't know their breed standards or simply don't care. In the gundog group all FCI breeds must have full dentition, e.g. GSP, Vizsla, Wei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) How important is it in the showring for correct detention. Should a dog win if missing teeth? If so how many missing is okay? Should a Challenge Cert be awarded? Should correct bite win everytime over bad bite? Do judges really look or know what they are looking for? In my answers I'm only referring to the breed I'm in as I'm not overly familar with other breeds standards and purpose of the breed. Our breed standard: A full complement of strong white teeth should meet in a scissor bite or may meet in a level bite. Disqualification: Undershot. Overshot greater than .3 cm (1/8 in). Loss of contact caused by short centre incisors in an otherwise correct bite shall not be judged undershot. Teeth broken or missing by accident shall not be penalised. Q: How important is it in the showring for correct detention. A: I think it's not only important for the showring but also in regards to potenital breedings. In saying that I would not "throw out the baby with the bathwater" if a dog had 1 or 2 missing teeth but if breeding with that dog would research pedigree combinations very very very throughly. Q: Should a dog win if missing teeth? A: Depends on how many missing teeth it has - P1's bother me less than PM's. Should dogs with tiny tiny teeth be put up over dogs with 1 missing tooth? Q: If so how many missing is okay? A: For me 1 or 2 missing is not the end of the world. Q: Should a Challenge Cert be awarded? A: Depends on how many missing teeth and also the overall quailty of the dog against the standard. If it's a outstanding example of the breed with 1 missing tooth vs a very average dog with full dentition then I'd go the dog with the missing tooth. Q: Should correct bite win everytime over bad bite? A: A bad bite (undershot/overshot) should not be in the ring. So long as the dog has a bite that's acceptable under our standard I can't see there being a problem. Q: Do judges really look or know what they are looking for? A: It's like all aspects of the breed standard - some do and some don't! We've had a dog refused a few years ago under a o/s for having part of his incisor snapped - most of the tooth was still there! But that's dog showing and his now in our "don't go there" spreadsheet :-) Edited March 7, 2012 by Silvawilow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceilidh Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 As far as thinking a judge isn't checking full dentition, they can discretly slip their finger in the side of the mouth and feel the teeth, if there is an obvious gap then they will check them out visually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverblue Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I showed a Cocker to his title with a missing K9 which had to be removed due to a accident, he had broken it some how ?? Anyway I just carried the letter from the vet and to be honest there were a lot of judges that didn't even pick it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) How important is it in the show ring for correct detention? Depends on the standard, the judge, the dog... Should a dog win if missing teeth?[ Should a challenge certificate be awarded? If the dog has virtues that outweigh its missing teeth, yes. Teeth are only part of the whole dog-package. If so, how many missing is okay? Again, it depends on the quality of a dog. An excellent dog could have many teeth missing and still be an excellent dog. A poor dog with a few teeth missing is unlikely to be put up in any situation. Should correct bite win everytime over bad bite? No. again, if the dog has enough virtues that nullify the state of it's mouth, then good. Do judges really look or know what they are looking for? That's a good question. We hope that judges are reading the standard and examining dogs based on the standard. I show border terriers, and the standard calls for a scissor bite - not full detention. I can only think of one judge that I've had in my 4+ years (not long compared to some!) years of showing that looking beyond the front teeth. This doesn't bother me, but if I had, say, a Dobermann, and the standard called for full dentition, then I'd be pissed if this aspect of my dog wasn't being taken into consideration (assuming I had a correct-dentition dog!) Edited March 7, 2012 by Leema Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceilidh Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I showed a Cocker to his title with a missing K9 which had to be removed due to a accident, he had broken it some how ?? Anyway I just carried the letter from the vet and to be honest there were a lot of judges that didn't even pick it up. The cocker standard doesn't say full dentition and I believe a working breed is generally forgiven for what could be a working accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 What about Veterans. :) Could have a marvellous Oldie missing a tooth or two. Oh Oh...I just had a vision of teeth implants. Sure it probably already exists. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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