Salukifan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Is it just me or is the Beagle injured? It looks to be on three legs to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angela & Batty Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I can't even make out that it's a beagle tbh. The quality of that video is absolute crap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Is it just me or is the Beagle injured? It looks to be on three legs to me. If you look and listen at 1.043 onwards when the beagle and fawn dog are not in the picture the screaming is very bad, I think I will need several more wines and to hug my dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Is it just me or is the Beagle injured? It looks to be on three legs to me. If you look and listen at 1.043 onwards when the beagle and fawn dog are not in the picture the screaming is very bad, I think I will need several more wines and to hug my dogs. Don't worry, I noticed. I'm still coming to terms with those who blamed the Beagle for "not responding to the invitations to play". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I'm still coming to terms with those who blamed the Beagle for "not responding to the invitations to play". Its as I said earlier a "play bow" is not necessarily an invitation to play nicely- its meaning is dependent on the rest of the dogs body language and people need to realise this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Janba, thanks for you attention to details that aren't great topay attention to. I think the beagle gets injured yes. And I am also thinking that the fact that the person taking the video says that he knows who owns them, and that he's "f***ing sick of this", indicates this is more than likely a repeat performance and he has experience to base his fear / apprehension of these dogs upon. The brindle dog is up on his toes, taut, tail up, chin flicking up, posturing at the people when they try to distract him from the beagle. I don't think that dog eases up in his intense attitude through any of the segments shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I'm still coming to terms with those who blamed the Beagle for "not responding to the invitations to play". Its as I said earlier a "play bow" is not necessarily an invitation to play nicely- its meaning is dependent on the rest of the dogs body language and people need to realise this. Yep, I said it earlier in the thread too. But apparently this doesn't apply to bull breeds. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) But apparently this doesn't apply to bull breeds. ;) I now have to wipe red wine splutters off the screen. ETA That is not a comment on bull breeds but at the blindness of some dog owners. Edited March 2, 2012 by Janba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdogs Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) I would be interested to get people's opinions on whether this officer's actions were appropriate. You asked at the beginning Blackdogs, for people's opinions. You have been given opinions from knowledgable law enforcement perspectives, and from knowledgable dog behaviour perspectives saying yes, the actions were justified. You have also been given opinions based on emotion and even possible breed bias. That's all well and good, but it seems after all that you are not interested in discussing the issue, only complaining about the cop's actions, defending the dog's actions, and seeking others to join you in that. it a thread for discussion or for cop bashing and ratbag dog sympathising? Oh I have been interested in discussing the issue, hence my discussion of the issue for the enirety of the thread. In fact, I think my discussion of the issue has been far less hyperbolic and emotional than some of the respondants here (eg, 'cop bashing', 'ratbag dog sympathising'), so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I understand that you are a police officer, but people disagreeing with the cop's actions aren't taking a personal stab at you. Relax, it's just an internet debate! :laugh: As for the rest, well, I'll simply be reiterating if I continue to debate the issue and I get bored with cicular discussion, so it's time for me to agree to disagree. ;) Edited March 2, 2012 by Blackdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Alyosha' timestamp='1330687638' post='5746809' Oh I have been interested in discussing the issue, hence my discussion of the issue for the enirety of the thread. In fact, I think my discussion of the issue has been far less hyperbolic and emotional than some of the respondants here (eg, 'cop bashing', 'ratbag dog sympathising'), so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I understand that you are a police officer, but people disagreeing with the cop's actions aren't taking a personal stab at you. Relax, it's just an internet debate! :laugh: As for the rest, well, I'll simply be reiterating if I continue to debate the issue and I get bored with cicular discussion, so it's time for me to agree to disagree. ;) People discussing the behaviour of the dogs aren't taking a stab at bull breeds either. We haven't blamed the dog who was the victim of the attack, suggested that "someone else" should have been called or suggested that the attacking dogs were somehow completely blameless. Believe it or not, for some of us breed is irrelevant. We aren't seeking to demonise the dogs. But gee it would be nice to see you attempt to stand in the shoes of the police officer, given what he had been told and how the dog came on. Its all well and good to talk about what you might have done and how any of us might have acted but the only decision that counts is whether or not HE thought the dog constituted a threat. Allegations that he "charged in threateningly" and the like simply don't stand up in the face of the actual footage. Frankly that's all I've been wanting to discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade~Harley~Bella Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Alyosha' timestamp='1330687638' post='5746809' Oh I have been interested in discussing the issue, hence my discussion of the issue for the enirety of the thread. In fact, I think my discussion of the issue has been far less hyperbolic and emotional than some of the respondants here (eg, 'cop bashing', 'ratbag dog sympathising'), so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I understand that you are a police officer, but people disagreeing with the cop's actions aren't taking a personal stab at you. Relax, it's just an internet debate! :laugh: As for the rest, well, I'll simply be reiterating if I continue to debate the issue and I get bored with cicular discussion, so it's time for me to agree to disagree. ;) People discussing the behaviour of the dogs aren't taking a stab at bull breeds either. We haven't blamed the dog who was the victim of the attack, suggested that "someone else" should have been called or suggested that the attacking dogs were somehow completely blameless. Believe it or not, for some of us breed is irrelevant. We aren't seeking to demonise the dogs. But gee it would be nice to see you attempt to stand in the shoes of the police officer, given what he had been told and how the dog came on. Its all well and good to talk about what you might have done and how any of us might have acted but the only decision that counts is whether or not HE thought the dog constituted a threat. Allegations that he "charged in threateningly" and the like simply don't stand up in the face of the actual footage. Frankly that's all I've been wanting to discuss. I'm not sure what else there is to discuss?! Everyone has stated their opinions and it seems unlikely to change... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I'm not sure what else there is to discuss?! Everyone has stated their opinions and it seems unlikely to change... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk True, lots of opinions but less discussion of the footage itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I'm not sure what else there is to discuss?! Everyone has stated their opinions and it seems unlikely to change... Not everyone has posted their opinions. Most people just read this and don't offer an opinion on every topic. While some people have put forward plenty of opinions based on their affection for the breed, others have been able to post information to help educate DOLers on canine communication and behaviour. No we can't change your opinion, but we can provide information for people that are interested in learning how to avoid dogs that are behaving dominantly or aggressively. So for that reason the topic was worthwhile and valuable and worth discussing, and there is more that could be discussed if people want to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Oh I have been interested in discussing the issue, hence my discussion of the issue for the enirety of the thread. In fact, I think my discussion of the issue has been far less hyperbolic and emotional than some of the respondants here (eg, 'cop bashing', 'ratbag dog sympathising'), so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I understand that you are a police officer, but people disagreeing with the cop's actions aren't taking a personal stab at you. Relax, it's just an internet debate! :laugh: You're presumptive and incorrect again. And pointlessly condescending. But, discussion: To consider or examine by argument, comment etc; talk over or write about, especially to explore solutions, debate. I think what people have seen as frustrating here is a mentality that wants to see these dogs in a positive light. That in itself is not a bad thing, it is nice to support dogs yes. But to blindly ignore the behaviours that have been clearly shown to have an aggressive or anti social bent is not supporting dogs in general. It could actually be seen to be detrimental to the ongoing public image of dogs. Dog owners / breeders etc often spend considerable effort in promoting dogs and responsible dog ownership. Along with this comes a responsibility or desire to uphold those values and not support the opposite, ie irresponsible ownership and blatantly anti social dog behaviour. So people who give a hoot about the public image of dogs as pets find it deeply disturbing when folks seem so keen and quick to undermine that ethic based upon an emotional and not necessarily rational response. It seems publicly detrimental to dogs, and also to bull breeds in particular, to condemn a decisive action that is a direct intervention in this aggressive incident. How much better does it look from the outside looking in for a knowledgable dog person to say something like "Yes that was terrible to see that dog get shot, but if that dog's owners had been responsible and caring that dog would not have been placed in that situation. Blame for what happened to that dog lies squarely with it's owner/s who have failed their pet, and failed societies expectations." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 When so many responsible breeders of bull-breeds state that 'socialisation' is extremely important in raising of these pups, why are we so surprised to see examples of these dogs that do not behave socially? Socialisation is not about allowing your dominating dog to go out and challenge other dogs and calling that normal. It is about training a dog during the critical socialisation phase and doing all we can to see that our dog learns to behave appropriately with other dogs. But sometimes socialisation isn't effective and a dog will still behave according to its deeper instincts. So then it is about recognising anti-social behaviour in our own dogs and putting a stop to it through training, or simply through good responsible management. Keeping the dog under control by keeping it on lead or enclosed in a yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I think I am pretty good at reading dog behaviour, although there is a lot I don't know and there are some very knowledgeable people on here which is why I love the place, I donlt think we ever stop learning....I agree that whether or not the dog was going to harm the officer, it was definitely charging towards him and it hardly looked friendly. I would have preferred the officer do something other than shoot, but really, he doesn't get paid enough to risk his life because said dog may be "just playing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 The dog absolutely moves quickly toward the officer. It does not look friendly. Some of the behaviour toward the beagle makes my stomach turn, as does the dogs screams. Different dogs have different playing styles and different body language. But it being different doesn't automatically make it appropriate or okay. Dogs that 'play' in a certain way need to be carefully managed as adults. As puppies some play can be modified to become more appropriate and universally accepted. But i don't believe there is much play involved in that clip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymatejack Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Using this chart I have one very angry little girl on my hands :) She regularly barks in an "angry" manner while looking "alert" when she is playing or being cheeky. ;) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk hahahaha yep, my dog gets stressed everytime i scratch him behind the ear. What a load of nonsense! Edit : oh and he relieves stress everytime he gets up from a sleep Clearly the subtleties of canine body language are lost on some. More's the pity. The better you can read it, particularly in unknown dogs, the safer you and your dog are. Seems to me that what this thread is about is a bunch of folk who suggest that because they have a dog of a particular breed, they can tell how all dogs of that breed act. And they can tell it better than anyone else. Maybe the police officer wasn't a bull breed owner. I'm sorry but you surely are a joker aren't you? I do agree that being able to assess doggy body language is a very useful tool, and i can and do monitor the language of any dog that approaches mine(and i can assure you in the real world that canine body language chart is nothing but a joke). Plenty of times i've put Jack back on the lead because i could see the other dog, although not outright aggressive, was, shall we say, posturing(sp?) and i was concerned if i let it go on Jack would not take kindly to a dog trying to dominate him. Seems to me that because you have a small breed of dog you are biased in a big way against any big breed,but particularly bull breeds. You're posts on the thread about the polce dog that got attacked show this clearly - even though the actual police who were there admitted that the dogs were onl defending their territory, you still can't bring yourself to show a non-biased attitude. And even more so, you seem to be putting yourself out there as an expert on dog behaviour(as are a few others) and making ridiculous claims that simply aren't backed up by that footage. Again, from that footage its impossible to be 100% sure of what went down except that there was NO actual attack(shown on the footage). Do i think the tan coloured dog was being dominant and somewhat excited by the beagles carry on, yes, but the footage shows nothing other than the tan dog standng over the beagle. If that dog had meant business you'd have seen it(thats not to say the situation couldn't have escalated). I can't pass judgement(as i said in my original post in this thread) on the police officer, however from that footage i would have thought there was a less extreme solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdogs Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 Oh I have been interested in discussing the issue, hence my discussion of the issue for the enirety of the thread. In fact, I think my discussion of the issue has been far less hyperbolic and emotional than some of the respondants here (eg, 'cop bashing', 'ratbag dog sympathising'), so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I understand that you are a police officer, but people disagreeing with the cop's actions aren't taking a personal stab at you. Relax, it's just an internet debate! :laugh: You're presumptive and incorrect again. And pointlessly condescending. But, discussion: To consider or examine by argument, comment etc; talk over or write about, especially to explore solutions, debate. I think what people have seen as frustrating here is a mentality that wants to see these dogs in a positive light. That in itself is not a bad thing, it is nice to support dogs yes. But to blindly ignore the behaviours that have been clearly shown to have an aggressive or anti social bent is not supporting dogs in general. It could actually be seen to be detrimental to the ongoing public image of dogs. Dog owners / breeders etc often spend considerable effort in promoting dogs and responsible dog ownership. Along with this comes a responsibility or desire to uphold those values and not support the opposite, ie irresponsible ownership and blatantly anti social dog behaviour. So people who give a hoot about the public image of dogs as pets find it deeply disturbing when folks seem so keen and quick to undermine that ethic based upon an emotional and not necessarily rational response. It seems publicly detrimental to dogs, and also to bull breeds in particular, to condemn a decisive action that is a direct intervention in this aggressive incident. How much better does it look from the outside looking in for a knowledgable dog person to say something like "Yes that was terrible to see that dog get shot, but if that dog's owners had been responsible and caring that dog would not have been placed in that situation. Blame for what happened to that dog lies squarely with it's owner/s who have failed their pet, and failed societies expectations." I'm bored with your indignation. It's time for me to use a phrase you used earlier. Get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) You can lead a horse to water.... How anyone can describe the shots Janba posted from the video as the fawn dog "just standing over" a dog beats the living shite out of me. That people are prepared to write off what I say as "breed bias" is incredibly frustrating. How my statements in the other police thread contribute to that bias confounds me. Oh hang on, I made a unsupportive statement in a thread that happens to be about bull breeds. That must be it. No, I"m no "expert". I have made no claims of that, I have merely describes what I see on the video. On the other hand, I DO own a breed with very high prey drive and I haven't got my head stuck in the sand about it. I know what some of their "play" signals and its not roses for the object of the attention. What's that line... "if you can't see there's a problem, perhaps you are part of it". If that video makes a trainer as experienced as Cosmolo's blood run cold (which is the impact it had on me), all I can say is I know I'm not imagining what I see and it worries me that people are so defensive of a particular type of dog that they cannot even concede that there was an issue with the behaviour of the dogs in that video. Its clear that folk are seeing what they want to see. But such tolerance of aggression towards people and animals within the dog community is to the peril of us all. If bull breed fanciers want unqualified support for their version of what happened in that video, I suggest you post it in the BSL forum that those who are less than gushing in support of all aspects of every bull breed dog have long learned to avoid. Edited March 3, 2012 by Telida Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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