Salukifan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) after watching this video a few times, the beagle is the one who actually looks dog aggressive.... if you watch it closely the pitbulls are actually displaying a lot of play behaviour and the beagle is the one going in for bites.... its only as soon as people show up with threatening body language and attempting to poke the dogs... god knows what the video taker was holding for the dogs to feel so threatened but they were not aggressive to the beagle at all, if anything the beagle is just annoyed the strays are in its personal perimeter, the closer the get the more the beagle screams out... the beagle just seems to have a very annoying over to top bark that sounds a lot worse then what the situation is.... I have watched the video 5 times just to justify the officers actions... You have GOT to be kidding. Edited March 2, 2012 by Telida Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Dear oh dear. I again refer to the human analogy I posted earlier. Anyone blaming the victim of violence for what happened needs to have a solid think about it. I have personally shot and seen shot several attacking dogs in the act, let me think... nope, no pitbulls, but nope, no hesitation, and no blaming the victim animal or it's owners. Hmm, husky, jrt, labrador, boxer, crossbreds, maremma... Breed is immaterial. Actions are what cause intervention. And decisive intervention can mean the difference between further injury and damage being caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Remember we are all watching from different eyes so it may as well be like watching a different video. You either agree with the office shooting the dogs or you don't. End of story. No one is going to change anyone's opinion on that so all the "your wrong, I'm right" banter is really just pointless. I'm just curious to know though... if we change the breed involved and put in for example a Dobe, GSD, Greyhound, Rotty, Mastiff, poodle, cattle dog (I don't have anything against these breeds by the way, I love all dogs regardless of their faults ;) ). Would you all agree that the dog should be shot? Or would it suddenly change to "Oh, it was just playing" :) and be honest! No, I disagree. I think the more educated people are about dog body language, the easier it is to see that the dog was a threat. The dog isn't playing nicely, it is terrorising another dog. By identifying all the different positions of the legs, chest, head, neck, ears, tail and body, and the way that the postures change, we can very accurately make a call on the dog's demeanor. Anyone can learn to read dog, and dogs don't lie. I find it really scary that so many bull-breed owners (not all) are so ignorant about this. I wonder if they are really that clueless, or whether they are just here to stir. What it means is that they are in charge of something they cannot properly control, and that's dangerous for teh rest of us dog owners. F11 was right, this behaviour is often a precurser to worse behaviour. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but it is almost inevitable that a dog posturing like that will eventually end up in a dog fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) I don't agree that the officer should have shot the dog. However, I can understand WHY he did. I also think any suggestion that the beagle is the agressor in the video is ludicrous. Greymate: I find it really scary that so many bull-breed owners (not all) are so ignorant about this. I wonder if they are really that clueless, or whether they are just here to stir. What it means is that they are in charge of something they cannot properly control, and that's dangerous for teh rest of us dog owners. I suspect most can control their dogs but I think some lack understanding about canine body language. This is not the first, nor it will be the last time that a dog owner suggests a dog is being playful when the dog is being anything but. Saw this play out at my dog club last week with a small dog threatened and cornered by two large dogs and none of the owners any the wiser until the fireworks started. Attitude of the owner of the two large dogs (who did absolutely NOTHING) - they're just playing. No mate, they weren't and I suspect you'll find that out the hard way. Edited March 2, 2012 by Telida Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) I'm just curious to know though... if we change the breed involved and put in for example a Dobe, GSD, Greyhound, Rotty, Mastiff, poodle, cattle dog (I don't have anything against these breeds by the way, I love all dogs regardless of their faults ;) ). Would you all agree that the dog should be shot? Or would it suddenly change to "Oh, it was just playing" :) and be honest! Nope - my opinion would not change. Again I still would prefer a cleaner kill shot though. Edited March 2, 2012 by Silvawilow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade~Harley~Bella Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I find it really scary that so many bull-breed owners (not all) are so ignorant about this. I wonder if they are really that clueless, or whether they are just here to stir. What it means is that they are in charge of something they cannot properly control, and that's dangerous for teh rest of us dog owners. I can read my dogs pretty well actually. I know when he is happy, anxious etc, although I am the only person in my house that can. The OH has no idea. There are only a few things that I don't entirely understand but we will be going to training to fix that anyway. Bella on the other hand doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body and I have never had any concerns yet. I find it scary that there are so many seemingly trigger happy people... I am glad you don't live in my neighbourhood.. there would be dead dogs everywhere ;) :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvawilow Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I find it scary that there are so many seemingly trigger happy people... I am glad you don't live in my neighbourhood.. there would be dead dogs everywhere ;) :laugh: I'm not trigger happy but will defend my property if the situation calls for it. I am, however, "pound happy" - after returning our neighbours (2 doors down)dog every day from our yard for 2 months and also making our yard fairly secure against dogs trying to get it I ended up having jack of it comming over every day, stiring my dogs up from the front yard, pooping and digging up our yard that I now drop it off at the shelter whenever I catch it. They must have more money than sense cause by my calcultions they're over $1000 in release fees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 It may well be that people who are trigger happy when it comes to roaming and potentially dangerous dogs have seen first hand the results of it and have zero tolerance. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I find it really scary that so many bull-breed owners (not all) are so ignorant about this. I wonder if they are really that clueless, or whether they are just here to stir. What it means is that they are in charge of something they cannot properly control, and that's dangerous for teh rest of us dog owners. I can read my dogs pretty well actually. I know when he is happy, anxious etc, although I am the only person in my house that can. The OH has no idea. There are only a few things that I don't entirely understand but we will be going to training to fix that anyway. Bella on the other hand doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body and I have never had any concerns yet. I find it scary that there are so many seemingly trigger happy people... I am glad you don't live in my neighbourhood.. there would be dead dogs everywhere ;) :laugh: Good, you be very scared of us then. Lock up your pitbulls. Don't be too sure you will learn how to understand dog communication at training. Behaviour assessment is a different frield than behaviour modification. You will be lucky if that sort of thing is discussed during training, even if you are fortunate enough to have an instructor who understands it themselves. I posted a chart here the other week about canine postures, I will have a look around when I get home tonight and see whatother resources I can find. It's probably worth doing a seperate thread, as the ''language'' is common to all dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade~Harley~Bella Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I find it really scary that so many bull-breed owners (not all) are so ignorant about this. I wonder if they are really that clueless, or whether they are just here to stir. What it means is that they are in charge of something they cannot properly control, and that's dangerous for teh rest of us dog owners. I can read my dogs pretty well actually. I know when he is happy, anxious etc, although I am the only person in my house that can. The OH has no idea. There are only a few things that I don't entirely understand but we will be going to training to fix that anyway. Bella on the other hand doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body and I have never had any concerns yet. I find it scary that there are so many seemingly trigger happy people... I am glad you don't live in my neighbourhood.. there would be dead dogs everywhere ;) :laugh: Good, you be very scared of us then. Lock up your pitbulls. Don't be too sure you will learn how to understand dog communication at training. Behaviour assessment is a different frield than behaviour modification. You will be lucky if that sort of thing is discussed during training, even if you are fortunate enough to have an instructor who understands it themselves. I posted a chart here the other week about canine postures, I will have a look around when I get home tonight and see whatother resources I can find. It's probably worth doing a seperate thread, as the ''language'' is common to all dogs. It's all good, I've spoken to the lady in detail about it before and she has dealt with many dogs with similar issues. I've got it covered :) lol my "pit bulls" are very well contained now so looks like I've got nothing to worry about ;) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymatejack Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Dear oh dear. I again refer to the human analogy I posted earlier. Anyone blaming the victim of violence for what happened needs to have a solid think about it. ummm .. who was the victim of violence in that video? Sure we don't know what else happened that wasn't filmed, but the only violence shown in that clip was the officer shooting the dog. I'm not going to cast actual judgement on the situation as i wasn't there and have only that small clip to go on, BUT based on that clip alone, i don't understand why the officer, armed with a gun(and no doubt batton and pepper spray) couldn't attempt to go and retrieve the beagle? Sure if one of the other dogs went him, he'd have no option that to shoot, but it certainly didn't look to me that he had no other options - again, i'm not passing actual judgement on his actions, just judgement based on what that clip showed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdogs Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 I find it really scary that so many bull-breed owners (not all) are so ignorant about this. I wonder if they are really that clueless, or whether they are just here to stir. What it means is that they are in charge of something they cannot properly control, and that's dangerous for teh rest of us dog owners. I can read my dogs pretty well actually. I know when he is happy, anxious etc, although I am the only person in my house that can. The OH has no idea. There are only a few things that I don't entirely understand but we will be going to training to fix that anyway. Bella on the other hand doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body and I have never had any concerns yet. I find it scary that there are so many seemingly trigger happy people... I am glad you don't live in my neighbourhood.. there would be dead dogs everywhere ;) :laugh: Good, you be very scared of us then. Lock up your pitbulls. Don't be too sure you will learn how to understand dog communication at training. Behaviour assessment is a different frield than behaviour modification. You will be lucky if that sort of thing is discussed during training, even if you are fortunate enough to have an instructor who understands it themselves. I posted a chart here the other week about canine postures, I will have a look around when I get home tonight and see whatother resources I can find. It's probably worth doing a seperate thread, as the ''language'' is common to all dogs. What does your chart say about play bowing? Or did you miss that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 My pack will "play bow" like that if they have a feral cat or possum cornered in our yard... I don't think I need to elaborate on what it turns into. Have you ever seen a cat "play" with a still alive mouse? It doesn't mean it wants a lasting relationship. Play vs Prey... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 My pack will "play bow" like that if they have a feral cat or possum cornered in our yard... I don't think I need to elaborate on what it turns into. Have you ever seen a cat "play" with a still alive mouse? It doesn't mean it wants a lasting relationship. Play vs Prey... My Whippet does the same with mice. Oh he wants to "play" alright... but the mouse is the game, not a playmate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdogs Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 My pack will "play bow" like that if they have a feral cat or possum cornered in our yard... I don't think I need to elaborate on what it turns into. Have you ever seen a cat "play" with a still alive mouse? It doesn't mean it wants a lasting relationship. Play vs Prey... And does your pack go away, sniff around, pee on a few things and then come back to their prey intermittently even through the prey is moving and vocalising? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) My pack will "play bow" like that if they have a feral cat or possum cornered in our yard... I don't think I need to elaborate on what it turns into. Have you ever seen a cat "play" with a still alive mouse? It doesn't mean it wants a lasting relationship. Play vs Prey... And does your pack go away, sniff around, pee on a few things and then come back to their prey intermittently even through the prey is moving and vocalising? If you mean will the dog discontinue play and do other things before going back to his prey? Yep. However by then I have usually stepped in. I don't enjoy seeing animals tormented. Here's the thing. Just because a dog is being "playful" doesn't mean that its intentions are benign. It takes two willing dogs to make a play session. Anything else and there are probably other motivations at work. As I have stated previously, most play behaviour is rehearsal for hunting or fighting. A play bow is a very stable position from which a dog can move quickly in almost any direction. But this study of wolf behaviour says it better: The "play bow" (H in behaviour diagram) is a behaviour seen in many contexts, including play solicitation, but it also plays a role in hunting as a good "all- purpose" position from which the animal may easily break in any direction depending on the movements of the prey. Although this position is often mistaken for a play request or a suggestion that the hunting behaviour is less than a life-or-death ritual, the bowing animal is not soliciting play behaviour from its prey. Upshot? If you think every time a dog is bowing, its inviting a game - think again. Maybe those of us with dogs with high prey drive are more used to seeing such behaviour outside the context of pure play. Edited March 2, 2012 by Telida Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Yep. If the game / prey stalls, especially the peeing on things, that's a biiiig part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 What does your chart say about play bowing? Or did you miss that? The dog bows twice but the body language in that video isn't playful at all. The dog moves rigidly as in prey drive with a high tail, rather than loosely and bouncily as it would if in relaxed play. The playful dog will go from side to side as it avoids eye contact. That dog was focussed. There is a big difference in how a dog plays with another dog, and a dog that plays with a toy or other prey item. Many of us would have seen it in dogs and recognise that sort of prey/play in this video. Have a look at the chart to see the difference between a true play bow, a stalking posture and the prey bow. Unfortunately the cartoons cannot capture the minutiae or the motion of the dog. But it's pretty clear that the dog was up to no good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdogs Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 What does your chart say about play bowing? Or did you miss that? The dog bows twice but the body language in that video isn't playful at all. The dog moves rigidly as in prey drive with a high tail, rather than loosely and bouncily as it would if in relaxed play. The playful dog will go from side to side as it avoids eye contact. That dog was focussed. There is a big difference in how a dog plays with another dog, and a dog that plays with a toy or other prey item. Many of us would have seen it in dogs and recognise that sort of prey/play in this video. Have a look at the chart to see the difference between a true play bow, a stalking posture and the prey bow. Unfortunately the cartoons cannot capture the minutiae or the motion of the dog. But it's pretty clear that the dog was up to no good. Sorry, I disagree. I can only imagine most of you haven't had much to do with Bull breeds. The brindle dog in the video was all about play in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Crap - image won't load Edited March 2, 2012 by Telida Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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