Dog On Trazadone, Valium And Prozac

[Jumabaar]

Do vets undertake any study in dog behaviour as part of their training? I am astounded at the vets I have consulted who want to refer me to "specialist" vets - rare and hugely expensive - because they don't have the "expertise" to address separation anxiety. Surely they must undertake some basic training in dog behaviour - enough to at least prescribe for these conditions? This attitude IMO is in part responsible for people despairing and dumping their dogs in shelters as people simply don't have the hundreds of dollars to consult "specialists".

Would you have your GP do an ultrasound, perform a hysterectomy on you, think of themselves as a physiologist, diagnose and treat agressive forms of cancer, perform heart surgery??? Yes vets do get basic training in behaviour but we also get basic training in surgery and medicine for large ad small animals, behaviour for large and small animals etc. So at some point your general vet IS going to be out of their depth in ALL fields!! So the smart/ethical vets then give you the option to see a specialist because the specialist has a far greater pool of knowledge to treat your animal. If people dont want to see a specialist then the vet does the best they can in the time they have.

Its not the vet who is responsible for the dog being dumped its the OWNER who made that decision. Its the 'blame someone else' attitude that people like you have that allows people to dump their dog and feel that they can blame the vet because the vet didnt treat their dog.

I have seen these drugs allow dogs to achieve amazing results. It has allowed owners to work through problems they have been having and eventually wean dogs off the drugs and be able to compete in agility and other sports, where before even seeing another dog put their dog over threshold.

Excuse me? My dog is a rescue dog that someone else dumped and I am trying to help overcome his problems. It was not me who dumped the dog and I have spent many hundreds of dollars trying to resolve the issues he has. GPs don't automatically refer people straight to "specialists" for mental health issues either - many will try to assist at a certain level before referral. Vets should be able to do the same.

But you have justified what that person has done!! You have placed blame on vets for being to expensive as a reason why dogs end up in pounds which I find quite offensive- it is the owner who decided to dump the dog.

Most vets do an assessment of the dog- there are some that they will/should refer immediately, others that they should try and work with owners. I actually get really annoyed at vets who try and treat things beyond their knowledge because they can do more harm than good. Its the same as the vet who sees a dog 20 times about a skin condition- had they referred at the second appointment the owner probably would have saved money seeing a specialist.

A dog that has anxiety or sever fear aggression is a dog that in my opinion is suffering and so should be helped as quickly as possible. Offering the services of someone more experienced who is up to date with behaviour therapy and current drugs is the fastest safest way to do this. I do think that once dogs start needing medication for day to day living it has moved beyond a general vets knowledge- but I understand that is my perspective.

I needed an ankle reconstruction 7 years after an injury because my GP wouldn't refer me to a specialist when the problem could have been fixed, despite me asking for it. Same with dogs- why not at least offer the chance to see a specialist in the first few weeks of the problem when the dog has not reinforced the behaviour making it easier to work through and potentially solve??? I didnt treat my dog that has fear aggression immediately, I kept going to trainers who made the situation worse, my vet just advised desexing. I went to a behaviourist and actually set up a training plan and we are slowly breaking all the bad habits. Thankfully no medication was necessary but if it would make the progress faster I would consider it. He is a much happier dog since treating the problems- I know see how much it was impacting on his life. I really wish someone had talked to me earlier about seeing a behaviourist instead of offering me crappy 'help'.

[Guest lavendergirl]

Do vets undertake any study in dog behaviour as part of their training? I am astounded at the vets I have consulted who want to refer me to "specialist" vets - rare and hugely expensive - because they don't have the "expertise" to address separation anxiety. Surely they must undertake some basic training in dog behaviour - enough to at least prescribe for these conditions? This attitude IMO is in part responsible for people despairing and dumping their dogs in shelters as people simply don't have the hundreds of dollars to consult "specialists".

Would you have your GP do an ultrasound, perform a hysterectomy on you, think of themselves as a physiologist, diagnose and treat agressive forms of cancer, perform heart surgery??? Yes vets do get basic training in behaviour but we also get basic training in surgery and medicine for large ad small animals, behaviour for large and small animals etc. So at some point your general vet IS going to be out of their depth in ALL fields!! So the smart/ethical vets then give you the option to see a specialist because the specialist has a far greater pool of knowledge to treat your animal. If people dont want to see a specialist then the vet does the best they can in the time they have.

Its not the vet who is responsible for the dog being dumped its the OWNER who made that decision. Its the 'blame someone else' attitude that people like you have that allows people to dump their dog and feel that they can blame the vet because the vet didnt treat their dog.

I have seen these drugs allow dogs to achieve amazing results. It has allowed owners to work through problems they have been having and eventually wean dogs off the drugs and be able to compete in agility and other sports, where before even seeing another dog put their dog over threshold.

Excuse me? My dog is a rescue dog that someone else dumped and I am trying to help overcome his problems. It was not me who dumped the dog and I have spent many hundreds of dollars trying to resolve the issues he has. GPs don't automatically refer people straight to "specialists" for mental health issues either - many will try to assist at a certain level before referral. Vets should be able to do the same.

But you have justified what that person has done!! You have placed blame on vets for being to expensive as a reason why dogs end up in pounds which I find quite offensive- it is the owner who decided to dump the dog.

Most vets do an assessment of the dog- there are some that they will/should refer immediately, others that they should try and work with owners. I actually get really annoyed at vets who try and treat things beyond their knowledge because they can do more harm than good. Its the same as the vet who sees a dog 20 times about a skin condition- had they referred at the second appointment the owner probably would have saved money seeing a specialist.

A dog that has anxiety or sever fear aggression is a dog that in my opinion is suffering and so should be helped as quickly as possible. Offering the services of someone more experienced who is up to date with behaviour therapy and current drugs is the fastest safest way to do this. I do think that once dogs start needing medication for day to day living it has moved beyond a general vets knowledge- but I understand that is my perspective.

I needed an ankle reconstruction 7 years after an injury because my GP wouldn't refer me to a specialist when the problem could have been fixed, despite me asking for it. Same with dogs- why not at least offer the chance to see a specialist in the first few weeks of the problem when the dog has not reinforced the behaviour making it easier to work through and potentially solve??? I didnt treat my dog that has fear aggression immediately, I kept going to trainers who made the situation worse, my vet just advised desexing. I went to a behaviourist and actually set up a training plan and we are slowly breaking all the bad habits. Thankfully no medication was necessary but if it would make the progress faster I would consider it. He is a much happier dog since treating the problems- I know see how much it was impacting on his life. I really wish someone had talked to me earlier about seeing a behaviourist instead of offering me crappy 'help'.

You are not reading my statement correctly. I stated that the reluctance of some vets - i.e. the ones I have consulted - to attempt treatment may cause some people to surrender their dog - that is not the same as justifying their actions. And I find it offensive your comment that "people like me" blame everyone else for their problems. I did not say vets were too expensive either rather specialist vets. Many people these days simply don't have the odd $400+ to spend. Behaviourists don't always have the answers either I have found.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Aidan2 Are you suggesting that Dr Seksel (for example, as she is the main veterinary behaviourist interviewed in the article) does not have considerable training experience?

I don't know, but having read her biography

http://www.sabs.com.au/staff_profiles.htm

I can't see what I would call considerable hands on working experience with dogs.

If people stop training and exercising their dogs in preference to medication, then I think we would have a serious cultural problem; and that does happen, but not as often as suggested.

The amount of dogs abandoned to shelters and pounds suggests that lack of proper leadership, training and exercise happens far too often.

For the dogs who are prescribed drugs, but do not strictly "need" them, the medication offers little benefit. SSRIs and TCAs are not tranquilizers or sedatives and in fact, may have the opposite effect. Their owners are unlikely to see improvement, and hopefully will take different measures in light of this information.

I have heard too many stories of dogs who have not responded to drugs or the treatment of behaviorists and whom have subsequently been fortunate enough to find a decent trainer who has solved the problem without recourse to drugs to have much faith in behaviorists.

Mind you, there are plenty of poor trainers out there as well.

[Aidan3]

Posted by Aidan2 Are you suggesting that Dr Seksel (for example, as she is the main veterinary behaviourist interviewed in the article) does not have considerable training experience?

I don't know, but having read her biography

http://www.sabs.com.au/staff_profiles.htm

I can't see what I would call considerable hands on working experience with dogs.

She has devoted her life to working with dogs and has probably worked with more dogs than you or I have had hot dinners. Dr Seksel is one of Australia's most highly regarded veterinary behaviourists and she did not get that reputation without working successfully with a LOT of dogs. I wouldn't expect to see her instructing at the local obedience club or putting it on her CV if she did.

If people stop training and exercising their dogs in preference to medication, then I think we would have a serious cultural problem; and that does happen, but not as often as suggested.

The amount of dogs abandoned to shelters and pounds suggests that lack of proper leadership, training and exercise happens far too often.

That's a different argument and this has been a problem long before one could even specialise in veterinary behavioural medicine. What does that have to do with medication? What is the cultural problem that you identified specifically concerning medication?

I have heard too many stories of dogs who have not responded to drugs or the treatment of behaviorists and whom have subsequently been fortunate enough to find a decent trainer who has solved the problem without recourse to drugs to have much faith in behaviorists.

Mind you, there are plenty of poor trainers out there as well.

So do you have any evidence to suggest that there are more poor veterinary behaviourists out there than poor trainers? I would suggest that the chances of finding a poor trainer are significantly higher.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Aidan2 She has devoted her life to working with dogs and has probably worked with more dogs than you or I have had hot dinners. Dr Seksel is one of Australia's most highly regarded veterinary behaviourists and she did not get that reputation without working successfully with a LOT of dogs. I wouldn't expect to see her instructing at the local obedience club or putting it on her CV if she did.

On the contrary Aidan, as her CV clearly demonstrates she has devoted her life to gaining academic degrees, writing academic papers and giving papers at academic conferences all over the world. Her reputation as a veterninary behaviorist is based on her academic achievements. No doubt, she has ‘treated’ many dogs. No doubt she has an abiding interest and concern for dogs. But if as you suggest, her reputation is based on her success with working with dogs, one might expect that dog trainers with vast experience in rehabilitating difficult dogs would likewise be feted amongst behavorists for their work. Instead, according to Dr Andrew O'Shea, incoming president of the behavioural group of the Australian Veterinary Association - “Twenty years ago there was not a single person in Australia who treated mental health in animals”.

Of course, dog trainers don’t call it ‘treating mental health problems’, they simply call it training. The deep disconnect between what behaviorist do and what they think dog trainers do is astounding. It’s like a behaviourist thinking that the failure to educate a child has nothing to do with the social and psychological problems the child is now experiencing.

That's a different argument and this has been a problem long before one could even specialise in veterinary behavioural medicine. What does that have to do with medication?

No, it isn’t a different argument. The lack of leadership, training and exercise is a cultural problem. And yes, it has existed long before behaviorists came on the scene.

What is the cultural problem that you identified specifically concerning medication?

The cultural problem is not medication. Medication is simply the means in which we use to treat the symptom rather than the underlying cause.

So do you have any evidence to suggest that there are more poor veterinary behaviourists out there than poor trainers?

From the original article:

At Cremorne Veterinary Hospital, Dr Louise Stevenson said she prescribes ''about 10 times more'' behavioural medication than a decade ago.

If a dog trainer said to me that in the last ten years her prescribing drugs had increased ten-fold in treating problem behaviors in dogs I would start running in the opposite direction. You seem to be comfortable with this development, I am not.

[jrm88]

Of course, dog trainers don’t call it ‘treating mental health problems’, they simply call it training. The deep disconnect between what behaviorist do and what they think dog trainers do is astounding. It’s like a behaviourist thinking that the failure to educate a child has nothing to do with the social and psychological problems the child is now experiencing.

Sorry but that is wrong. There is indeed mental health problems that CANNOT be fixed with training alone.

A dog that is so insanely fearful that they completely shutdown in a situation (e.g. when a child is around) cannot be "trained" out of the problem, simply because they have shutdown they are not capable of learning in that situation. Their brain is not functioning correctly, thus medication is needed to allow the brain to work correctly.

In that situation, medication is needed to prevent the dog from shutting down in that situation, and to be receptive to training so THEN they can be trained that children are not to be fearful of.

I know a dog like this, and it is a LONG road. The owner is dedicated, and he will never be 100% but with medication on board and appropriate behavioral modification, he is definitely improving.

[itsadogslife]

Sorry but that is wrong. There is indeed mental health problems that CANNOT be fixed with training alone.

I am sure that is true. But as I never claimed that all and any problems can be solved by training I am uncertain of your point. After all, even highly experienced trainers have on the rare occasions recommended dogs be pts. But if said trainers were telling me that in the last ten years they had been finding a ten-fold increase in dogs that they couldn't rehabilitate without drugs or being pts, I would certainly seek another trainer.

[jrm88]

I would actually argue the other way. So many people DO NOT recognise an anxious/fearful dog. If a dog is anxious/fearful, they are not able to learn properly from a situation.

If they had medication on board to reduce anxiety/fear, they would have a much better chance of learning how to act in situations.

We will ask people "do you think your dog is anxious??" and they are adament they are not, yet the whole time the dog is pacing, is hypervigilant, licking lips and yawning. Sure, alot of dogs stress in a vet clinic, but usually if they are in the consult room for an hour, with nothing bad happening and lots of treats being offered, most dogs will relax, lay down and accept the situation is pretty good. I think we are treating many more dogs with medication because it is actually being recognised now and more people are willing to treat.

[aussielover]

Human disorders like ADHD are being more frequently diagnosed today, compared to 10 years ago. Now, some of these diagnoses are probably incorrect, but also the recognition of emerging disorders has lead to an increase in diagnoses.

I would say the same thing is happening in the animal world. There is more knowledge about animal behaviour today which leads to greater recognition of behavioural issues in dogs and cats.

You may blame the vet, and in some cases the vet may be over prescribing but one must also recognise that many vets do offer behavioural counselling or referral to a dog trainer or behaviourist. In fact all the vets I have worked with always suggest the owner see a trainer/behaviourist (not necessarily a veterinary behaviourist) as the first point of call in addressing the behaviour problem.

[Aidan3]

What is the cultural problem that you identified specifically concerning medication?

The cultural problem is not medication. Medication is simply the means in which we use to treat the symptom rather than the underlying cause.

How so? What are the causes of a neurotransmitter imbalance? Do you realise how sensitive our thoughts, feelings, and behaviours are to our biochemistry?

Does it work the other way? Can we "train out" chemical imbalances? What are the factors that determine success in the short term? Or the long term?

All tricky questions which many don't consider, or flippantly assume they know the answers to. To say that medication treats the symptoms rather than the cause certainly ignores the role of biology in behaviour to a large extent. Either that or you just don't know what the medications in question actually do. Which is certainly not uncommon.

From the original article:

At Cremorne Veterinary Hospital, Dr Louise Stevenson said she prescribes ''about 10 times more'' behavioural medication than a decade ago.

If a dog trainer said to me that in the last ten years her prescribing drugs had increased ten-fold in treating problem behaviors in dogs I would start running in the opposite direction. You seem to be comfortable with this development, I am not.

In the last ten years there has been more than a ten-fold increase in the use of smart-phones and the internet, too. Why would that be?

Perhaps you might ponder the multitude of reasons why Dr Stevenson might prescribe more medication than ten years ago. You might also consider the cultural changes that see us putting more effort into dogs that would otherwise have been knocked on the head ten years ago.

Tell me, are you denying that veterinary behaviourists have success with the dogs they treat? Is there a pragmatic reason for "running in the opposite direction", or is it purely philosophical?

[Peace_Of_Mind]

It's all a conspiracy by big pharma who sponsor all the so-called research. Poor drugged out puppies lost in a purple haze.

Yep totally agree with - the big pharmaceutical companies trying to make more bucks. Not enough people taking their benzos and anti-depressants, now lets drug our pets.

[itsadogslife]

How so? What are the causes of a neurotransmitter imbalance? Do you realise how sensitive our thoughts, feelings, and behaviours are to our biochemistry?

Or to the environment?

To say that medication treats the symptoms rather than the cause certainly ignores the role of biology in behaviour to a large extent. Either that or you just don't know what the medications in question actually do.

Ruling out biology would entail me saying something like, any and all behavioral problems can be solved by training. As I don't say that, I haven't ruled out the role biology plays. Nor do I rule out the benefits of medication where necessary.

Does it work the other way? Can we "train out" chemical imbalances?

I don't know what you mean by this question. Trainers have been rehabilitating problem dogs for years, everything from anxiety to severe aggression without the use of drugs. I would have a lot more confidence in behaviorists if part of their training involved extensive experience working with dog trainers specializing in rehabilitation of problem dogs.

But of course, this will never happen. Not the least for the reason that behaviorists such Dr O'Shea don't even recognize the work done by trainers as pertaining to the mental health of dogs.

Perhaps you might ponder the multitude of reasons why Dr Stevenson might prescribe more medication than ten years ago.

Or perhaps behaviorists might ponder the work of trainers who have rehabilitated thousands of dogs without ever using drugs. Perhaps if there was a genuine meeting of minds on this, between behaviorists and trainers I would be far more confident in the ability of behaviorists.

[itsadogslife]

Human disorders like ADHD are being more frequently diagnosed today, compared to 10 years ago.

Yep, the frequency of new human disorders are on about par with the frequency of psychologists. The more psychologists you have the more human disorders are discovered. Some of us are a more than a little skeptical of the increasing medicalization of human life.

[Aidan3]

How so? What are the causes of a neurotransmitter imbalance? Do you realise how sensitive our thoughts, feelings, and behaviours are to our biochemistry?

Or to the environment?

I'm well aware of the effect of the environment on these things, you are dodging the point.

To say that medication treats the symptoms rather than the cause certainly ignores the role of biology in behaviour to a large extent. Either that or you just don't know what the medications in question actually do.

Ruling out biology would entail me saying something like, any and all behavioral problems can be solved by training. As I don't say that, I haven't ruled out the role biology plays. Nor do I rule out the benefits of medication where necessary.

Ignoring is not ruling out, you are dodging the point. You said that medications treat the symptoms, and not the causes. That suggests that the cause of anxiety is either not biochemical, or that medication does not address this problem.

Does it work the other way? Can we "train out" chemical imbalances?

I don't know what you mean by this question. Trainers have been rehabilitating problem dogs for years, everything from anxiety to severe aggression without the use of drugs.

We have never had a good track record with separation anxiety or noise phobias. Anyone who tells you otherwise is flat-out lying to gain your business. Only in the mildest cases, and even then we're better at treating the symptoms than the cause.

Not the least for the reason that behaviorists such Dr O'Shea don't even recognize the work done by trainers as pertaining to the mental health of dogs.

So far the evidence you have shared is one quote, most likely taken out of context, to back up this claim. My experience tells me otherwise. I'll share one of those experiences with you, I consulted a veterinary behaviourist interstate about a specific problem once and she knew who I was because she enjoyed reading my articles on dog training and recognised the name. It was our first meeting.

Perhaps if there was a genuine meeting of minds on this, between behaviorists and trainers I would be far more confident in the ability of behaviorists.

I'll ask again, do you have a pragmatic reason for doubting behaviourists (e.g actual or vicarious experience) or is this purely philosophical?

[Aidan3]

It's all a conspiracy by big pharma who sponsor all the so-called research. Poor drugged out puppies lost in a purple haze.

Yep totally agree with - the big pharmaceutical companies trying to make more bucks. Not enough people taking their benzos and anti-depressants, now lets drug our pets.

Heaven forbid we should help those in need, so long as those greedy drug companies don't get our money.

[OzzieLioness]

I really will be interested to see what Dr. Harry has to say about long term use of benzo's and anti-depressents in dogs to treat seperation anxiety.

Personally, I can't see any problem with SHORT term use of a calmative like Valium, in conjunction with intensive, appropriate training for whatever the problem is. Then wean the animal off Valium.

The following is an excerpt from a webpage article written by Dr. Barbara Forney, who is a veterinary practitioner in Chester County in Pennsylvania, U.S.A. She has a Master's degree in animal science from the University of Delaware and graduated from the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine in 1982.

She began to develop her interest in client education and medical writing 1997. Recent publications include portions of The Pill Book Guide to Medication for Your Dog and Cat, and most recently Understanding Equine Medications published by the Bloodhorse.

Dr. Forney is an FEI veterinarian and an active member of the AAEP, AVMA, and AMWA

http://www.wedgewoodpetrx.com/learning-center/professional-monographs/diazepam-for-veterinary-use.html

Diazepam Side Effects

•Common: weakness, drowsiness and loss of coordination.

•Rare: paradoxical excitement, aggression or unusual behavior. Liver failure is a rare but serious side effect that can occur in cats after receiving oral diazepam for several days.

Affected cats do not have a prior history of liver disease or elevated enzymes. The cause of this hepatic toxicity is not known at this time.

[bianca.a]

My lay-persons experience.

My dog has turned into a storm phobic shaking, freaking out mess. I have given her Xanax to try and help( it didn't help so off to the vet again) and I AM working with a behaviourist too.

I take anti-depressants etc and if my dog needs some sort of medical intervention to help with her fear then you can damn well be sure she will get the help she needs. I fail to see how it is any different. If the help (hopefully) is available then to me, I would be neglectful not to utilise it. Be it medication, behaviour modification, desensitization or a combination.

Edited February 28, 2012 by bianca.a

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Aidan2 We have never had a good track record with separation anxiety or noise phobias. Anyone who tells you otherwise is flat-out lying to gain your business. Only in the mildest cases, and even then we're better at treating the symptoms than the cause.

http://caninetraining.com.au/articles-on-dog-behaviour/marks-say/109-dogs-and-medication-for-behaviour-problems.html

Refer to the above. If Mark Singer advised me that my dog need medication I would take his advice. I am not opposed to using drugs to treat problems. I am however entirely skeptical of behaviorists who seem not only comfortable with a ten-fold increase in the use of drugs but appear to me to think their use of drugs recommends their services.

I would gladly take my dog to someone like Mark Singer - I wouldn't go near a behaviorist.

[Aidan3]

Still dodging my questions. Do you have any evidence that veterinary behaviourists are inappropriately medicating dogs, are inexperienced in working with dogs, or that the ten fold increase in medication is indicative of an actual problem?

Or are your arguments purely philosophical?

The irony here is that you dismissed Dr Seksels academic experience as not being 'hands on' experience in working with dogs. The truth is that science is the most honest firm of actual hands on experience we have. Self deception is rife out in the "real world".

Anyone who tells me that dogs are being 'doped up' really shouldn't be passing comment on the use of drugs.

[Guest lavendergirl]

My lay-persons experience.

My dog has turned into a storm phobic shaking, freaking out mess. I have given her Xanax to try and help( it didn't help so off to the vet again) and I AM working with a behaviourist too.

I take anti-depressants etc and if my dog needs some sort of medical intervention to help with her fear then you can damn well be sure she will get the help she needs. I fail to see how it is any different. If the help (hopefully) is available then to me, I would be neglectful not to utilise it. Be it medication, behaviour modification, desensitization or a combination.

Yes it is difficult isn't it? Many people try very hard and go to considerable expense to find a solution. Interesting Aidan's statement about trainers/behaviourists not having a good track record treating these anxiety related conditions. As a "lay-person" :) also I have found that the behaviourists I have consulted tend to use a "one size fits all" solution and follow the standard desensitisation and counter conditioning doctrine. This information is freely available to anyone who wants to do some research without going to the expense of engaging a behaviourist. I have found the naturopathic treatments equally ineffective - they may assist some very mildly affected dogs but I suspect they have more of a placebo effect on the owners. Just my experience thus far - not saying behaviourists/trainers don't fulfill a worthwhile role in handling many conditions in dogs just question their effectiveness in anxiety related conditions :D I suspect many dogs are indeed "hard wired" towards anxiety.