Demodex Aka Mange.

[bullstaff101]

I need some help and possibly some advice, My pb english staffordshire terrier, has been suffering from this since 3 months of age, taking him to serveral different vets many informing it was just staff, than eventually finding a vet that was more helpful and followed through with skin scrappings etc, Our current dilemia he has now had 9 injections for it and 3 doses of strong antibiotics.. with no chance of fully recovering we are doing the right thing and not breeding him and having him desexed, even though that was part of our intial interest in buying him. My question is I have been informed my vet to contact my dogs breeder and obviously they were going to deny any possiblity of this being around him during the 8 weeks and pregnancy he was apart of. We paid extra to ensure we retained main papers for him to put him under our prefix, We have 3 other dogs of the same breed with no such issues and have also been tested, by right is the breeder obligated to provide us with any help in the expense of medical bills or of the loss in the possibility of breeding him or is simply a slap on the chin.. because looking at my dog does nothing but make me angry and upset at the fact i cannot do anything else to help him?

[Inevitablue]

Your vet should have explained that they don't 'catch' demodectic mites. All dogs have a small population of them, but some dogs have such poor immune systems that the mites overpopulate. Many young dogs can be affected as they go through puberty and their immune systems are under more stress.

Is your SBT from a blue to blue mating?

Edit: spelling

Edited February 26, 2012 by Inevitablue

[aussielover]

Usually generalised demodecosis like this is due to immune problems, so even if he appears to fully recover, I would never breed from a dog affected by this. SBT's seem to be more frequently affected.

Did the dog present with any signs of it when you purchased him from the breeder? If he did not, and none of their dogs have it, I really don't think the breeder is obliged to provide any assistance (apart from moral support) for his treatment. There is no genetic test to determine carriers, so aside from only breeding from dogs with excellent skin and lines known for not having this problem, there isn't much more a breeder can do. The law currently favours the breeder with these issues.

If you have photos of him around the time of purchase that show is has a skin condition, then you may have better luck claiming some kind of assistance from them.

I would recommend discussing other treatment options with your vet. For example, it is common to do a 2 month course of weekly dectomax injections, which is what he is having form what you've described.

Other treatment options can also include daily oral ivermectin administration, which is what may be recommended for dogs that don't respond to the weekly injections.

[Crisovar]

Demodex takes hold when a dogs immune system is compromised. Demodex are always there but a healthy strong immune system keeps them under control.

There can be many things that trigger this, weaning, illness, vaccination, upheaval in the animals life.

Often many things happen at once to young pups and Demodex raises its head. The issue in Staffords seems to be an immune system weakness.

I have seen some very bad cases of generalised Demodex come good once the overall health of the dog and its immune system have been raised.

I believe there is a lot you can do to help your dog but it will probably mean a complete overhaul of the way you feed and the way you approach basic health care for your dog.

I agree that not breeding him is advisable though many still do, which is why we see so many immune system issues.

I would definitely speak to the breeder, if only to try and discover if they have in fact had immune system issues previously.

[bullstaff101]

Your vet should have explained that they don't 'catch' demodectic mites. All dogs have a small population of them, but some dogs have such poor immune systems that the mites overpopulate. Many young dogs can be affected as they go through puberty and their immune systems are under more stress.

Is your SBT from a blue to blue mating?

Edit: spelling

Hi, thanks i understand they do not *catch* them, but it can come from the mother at birth, he did show some signs as a puppy as to not having a great immune system, Yes he is from a blue to blue mating, he is currently now a 18mnths old and is having regular injections weekly.. he has only had 6 months of his life in total where it has not been noticable.

[bullstaff101]

Our Vet has also told us if we were not feeding and caring for him aswell as what we do he could have easily been one of the few that could possibly die from it.. its very upsetting.

[persephone]

most dogs (and humans) have a population of species specific demodex ..which live quietly on skin along with other micro organisms, but it is when immune systems fail that these mites can proliferate, and then , any damage they cause can become infected with staph etc.

It's sad when breeding appears to be done at the expense of health and strength

[Crisovar]

If this was my dog, I would immediately stop the treatments, avoid all drugs and chemicals and put the dog on a completely raw diet.

I have seen some excellent results by simply strengthening the dogs immune system an allowing it to deal with the mites.

Just recently I was able to observe the dramatic improvement in a dog with Demodex after following this course of treatment. I wish I had some photos to show you the before and after, such a complete turn around.

[bullstaff101]

If this was my dog, I would immediately stop the treatments, avoid all drugs and chemicals and put the dog on a completely raw diet.

I have seen some excellent results by simply strengthening the dogs immune system an allowing it to deal with the mites.

Just recently I was able to observe the dramatic improvement in a dog with Demodex after following this course of treatment. I wish I had some photos to show you the before and after, such a complete turn around.

Thats a very good suggestion, I make all our dogs food by hand health supplements, veg, pasta, and meats, oils. he has dropped several kilo's and was aggressive for a slight time,which is understandable i would to if my skin was like his! He is normally like a giant kitten and plays with our other dogs fine, we have had to seperate him sadly..

[Inevitablue]

Your vet should have explained that they don't 'catch' demodectic mites. All dogs have a small population of them, but some dogs have such poor immune systems that the mites overpopulate. Many young dogs can be affected as they go through puberty and their immune systems are under more stress.

Is your SBT from a blue to blue mating?

Edit: spelling

Hi, thanks i understand they do not *catch* them, but it can come from the mother at birth, he did show some signs as a puppy as to not having a great immune system, Yes he is from a blue to blue mating, he is currently now a 18mnths old and is having regular injections weekly.. he has only had 6 months of his life in total where it has not been noticable.

All dogs carry a small population, so technically all puppies will have some.

Follow the advice of a completely raw diet, and put him on Protexin and some colostrum powder if you can find it. Build up his immune system.

If your breeding SBT you have now seen first hand why you shouldn't breed blue to blue.

[persephone]

It is a worry

You might want to have a read of this LINK to see what other things might help ...

and perhaps look at gradually changing your boy over to a fresh raw diet ? LINK with info.

[bullstaff101]

Your vet should have explained that they don't 'catch' demodectic mites. All dogs have a small population of them, but some dogs have such poor immune systems that the mites overpopulate. Many young dogs can be affected as they go through puberty and their immune systems are under more stress.

Is your SBT from a blue to blue mating?

Edit: spelling

Hi, thanks i understand they do not *catch* them, but it can come from the mother at birth, he did show some signs as a puppy as to not having a great immune system, Yes he is from a blue to blue mating, he is currently now a 18mnths old and is having regular injections weekly.. he has only had 6 months of his life in total where it has not been noticable.

All dogs carry a small population, so technically all puppies will have some.

Follow the advice of a completely raw diet, and put him on Protexin and some colostrum powder if you can find it. Build up his immune system.

If your breeding SBT you have now seen first hand why you shouldn't breed blue to blue.

Thanks defintaly after this scare for the past year i dont think im game enough to breed it scares me so much!

[Sandra777]

If this was my dog, I would immediately stop the treatments, avoid all drugs and chemicals and put the dog on a completely raw diet.

I have seen some excellent results by simply strengthening the dogs immune system an allowing it to deal with the mites.

Just recently I was able to observe the dramatic improvement in a dog with Demodex after following this course of treatment. I wish I had some photos to show you the before and after, such a complete turn around.

Thats a very good suggestion, I make all our dogs food by hand health supplements, veg, pasta, and meats, oils. he has dropped several kilo's and was aggressive for a slight time,which is understandable i would to if my skin was like his! He is normally like a giant kitten and plays with our other dogs fine, we have had to seperate him sadly..

STOP feeding him vege & pasta - feed him raw food only. He is old enough for you not to be too concerned about getting the proportions of minerals perfect (unlike feeding a puppy) so even if he can only have - just for example! - chicken carcases for six or eight weeks it won't harm him.

I would consult a vet who deals more with solving the problem than masking it - a vet who can help you boost his immune system so his own body can take care of the problem. The vet's at Ormeau, particularly Rowan (sp?) have a good reputation in this regard.

Constantly pumping chemicals into this dog will only make more of a mess of his immune system.

You are right that he should not be bred from, no dog which has a compromised immune system should be the part of any breeding plan.

ALL puppies get the demodex mite from their mother - this is normal and is actually a required part of dogdom. It is the individual's immune system's inability to regulate the mite population which causes the problem and this definitely has a genetic component.

Anyone breeding two blues together is not breeding for the right reason so it was a little silly of you to believe you were going to get a quality dog from this mix, and perhaps naive to believe you weren't going to get skin issues from such a shonkily bred animal, but what is done is done and you can only move forward and try to make this dog's life better.

As for his breeder - paying more for main registration is frankly a con when you are looing at buying the same puppy on main or limit registration. I wouldn't expect any help from someone who deals like this and breeds blue to blue but you can certainly try. What have they said about it so far - I am assuming that in the past 18 months you have mentioned this problem to them?

Oh yes - and I am assuming he is a Staffordshire Bull Terrier?

Edited February 26, 2012 by Sandra777

[bullstaff101]

If this was my dog, I would immediately stop the treatments, avoid all drugs and chemicals and put the dog on a completely raw diet.

I have seen some excellent results by simply strengthening the dogs immune system an allowing it to deal with the mites.

Just recently I was able to observe the dramatic improvement in a dog with Demodex after following this course of treatment. I wish I had some photos to show you the before and after, such a complete turn around.

Thats a very good suggestion, I make all our dogs food by hand health supplements, veg, pasta, and meats, oils. he has dropped several kilo's and was aggressive for a slight time,which is understandable i would to if my skin was like his! He is normally like a giant kitten and plays with our other dogs fine, we have had to seperate him sadly..

STOP feeding him vege & pasta - feed him raw food only. He is old enough for you not to be too concerned about getting the proportions of minerals perfect (unlike feeding a puppy) so even if he can only have - just for example! - chicken carcases for six or eight weeks it won't harm him.

I would consult a vet who deals more with solving the problem than masking it - a vet who can help you boost his immune system so his own body can take care of the problem. The vet's at Ormeau, particularly Rowan (sp?) have a good reputation in this regard.

Constantly pumping chemicals into this dog will only make more of a mess of his immune system.

You are right that he should not be bred from, no dog which has a compromised immune system should be the part of any breeding plan.

ALL puppies get the demodex mite from their mother - this is normal and is actually a required part of dogdom. It is the individual's immune system's inability to regulate the mite population which causes the problem and this definitely has a genetic component.

Anyone breeding two blues together is not breeding for the right reason so it was a little silly of you to believe you were going to get a quality dog from this mix, and perhaps naive to believe you weren't going to get skin issues from such a shonkily bred animal, but what is done is done and you can only move forward and try to make this dog's life better.

As for his breeder - paying more for main registration is frankly a con when you are looing at buying the same puppy on main or limit registration. I wouldn't expect any help from someone who deals like this and breeds blue to blue but you can certainly try. What have they said about it so far - I am assuming that in the past 18 months you have mentioned this problem to them?

Oh yes - and I am assuming he is a Staffordshire Bull Terrier?

Yes he is, We were quiet silly and new to the idea of having a *blue* staffy and should have done alot more research prior, the breeder is well aware and denys it obviously, i appreciate everything you have told me and am taking it on, my dog has been to 3 different vets this one is the only one that has identified it properly.. and no im not going to cheap vets, its a fortune im willing to pay to secure an animals health.

[Sandra777]

the breeder is well aware and denys it obviously,

Denies that your dog has a problem? Surely a vet's report would solve that very quickly! They cannot deny it has a genetic component, however if they can prove that neither parents or other close relatives has this issue then they could easily absolve themselves of blame because nature is nature and as a breeder you can only do your best - but I would be happy to believe they know next to nothing about the true health status of the close relatives and are more interested in getting money in the door.

i appreciate everything you have told me and am taking it on, my dog has been to 3 different vets this one is the only one that has identified it properly.. and no im not going to cheap vets, its a fortune im willing to pay to secure an animals health.

Money does not buy a good vet! The most expensive vets bills I have paid have been for the biggest disasters and the most rediculous diagnosis.

It might be a good idea for you to start a new topic and ask for recommendations for vets in your area who are willing to treat the cause of the problem (the immune system) and not the symptoms (the mites). There are some around :)

Edited February 26, 2012 by Sandra777

[bullstaff101]

the breeder is well aware and denys it obviously,

Denies that your dog has a problem? Surely a vet's report would solve that very quickly! They cannot deny it has a genetic component, however if they can prove that neither parents or other close relatives has this issue then they could easily absolve themselves of blame because nature is nature and as a breeder you can only do your best - but I would be happy to believe they know next to nothing about the true health status of the close relatives and are more interested in getting money in the door.

i appreciate everything you have told me and am taking it on, my dog has been to 3 different vets this one is the only one that has identified it properly.. and no im not going to cheap vets, its a fortune im willing to pay to secure an animals health.

Money does not buy a good vet! The most expensive vets bills I have paid have been for the biggest disasters and the most rediculous diagnosis.

It might be a good idea for you to start a new topic and ask for recommendations for vets in your area who are willing to treat the cause of the problem (the immune system) and not the symptoms (the mites). There are some around :)

My location didnt change correctly when i made my profile but i live in tasmania, think there would only be about 20 vets statewide.. and sadly ive gone off references from the canine association for the vet.. But Im not giving up

[dancinbcs]

I need some help and possibly some advice, My pb english staffordshire terrier, has been suffering from this since 3 months of age, taking him to serveral different vets many informing it was just staff, than eventually finding a vet that was more helpful and followed through with skin scrappings etc, Our current dilemia he has now had 9 injections for it and 3 doses of strong antibiotics.. with no chance of fully recovering we are doing the right thing and not breeding him and having him desexed, even though that was part of our intial interest in buying him. My question is I have been informed my vet to contact my dogs breeder and obviously they were going to deny any possiblity of this being around him during the 8 weeks and pregnancy he was apart of. We paid extra to ensure we retained main papers for him to put him under our prefix, We have 3 other dogs of the same breed with no such issues and have also been tested, by right is the breeder obligated to provide us with any help in the expense of medical bills or of the loss in the possibility of breeding him or is simply a slap on the chin.. because looking at my dog does nothing but make me angry and upset at the fact i cannot do anything else to help him?

The breeder is not obligated to pay any of they vet bills. If you had returned the dog for a refund when you discovered it had a faulty immune system, they would have been obligated to take the dog back and refund the purchase because the dog was not fit for the purpose it was purchased for. This may still be an option but you would need legal advise because you have now opted to treat it.

No matter what you do please do LOTS MORE RESEARCH before ever contemplating breeding dogs. The skin problems with Blues in SBTs are very well documented. Just a little research could have prevented you ending up with a dog like this. If you plan to breed them you need to know that the breed is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier not English Staffordshire Terrier and also need to be aware that blues cannot have a black nose and therefore cannot conform to the breed standard. Reputable breeders generally do not breed from blues and never ever do blue to blue matings because of the associated health issues.

[bullstaff101]

the breeder is well aware and denys it obviously,

Denies that your dog has a problem? Surely a vet's report would solve that very quickly! They cannot deny it has a genetic component, however if they can prove that neither parents or other close relatives has this issue then they could easily absolve themselves of blame because nature is nature and as a breeder you can only do your best - but I would be happy to believe they know next to nothing about the true health status of the close relatives and are more interested in getting money in the door.

i appreciate everything you have told me and am taking it on, my dog has been to 3 different vets this one is the only one that has identified it properly.. and no im not going to cheap vets, its a fortune im willing to pay to secure an animals health.

Money does not buy a good vet! The most expensive vets bills I have paid have been for the biggest disasters and the most rediculous diagnosis.

It might be a good idea for you to start a new topic and ask for recommendations for vets in your area who are willing to treat the cause of the problem (the immune system) and not the symptoms (the mites). There are some around :)

My location didnt change correctly when i made my profile but i live in tasmania, think there would only be about 20 vets statewide.. and sadly ive gone off references from the canine association for the vet.. But Im not giving up

Also my vet is more than happy to supply the breeder with basically my dogs full medical history.. They basically second guessed my vet said to get a second opinion i supplied 3.. very annoyed!!

[bullstaff101]

I need some help and possibly some advice, My pb english staffordshire terrier, has been suffering from this since 3 months of age, taking him to serveral different vets many informing it was just staff, than eventually finding a vet that was more helpful and followed through with skin scrappings etc, Our current dilemia he has now had 9 injections for it and 3 doses of strong antibiotics.. with no chance of fully recovering we are doing the right thing and not breeding him and having him desexed, even though that was part of our intial interest in buying him. My question is I have been informed my vet to contact my dogs breeder and obviously they were going to deny any possiblity of this being around him during the 8 weeks and pregnancy he was apart of. We paid extra to ensure we retained main papers for him to put him under our prefix, We have 3 other dogs of the same breed with no such issues and have also been tested, by right is the breeder obligated to provide us with any help in the expense of medical bills or of the loss in the possibility of breeding him or is simply a slap on the chin.. because looking at my dog does nothing but make me angry and upset at the fact i cannot do anything else to help him?

The breeder is not obligated to pay any of they vet bills. If you had returned the dog for a refund when you discovered it had a faulty immune system, they would have been obligated to take the dog back and refund the purchase because the dog was not fit for the purpose it was purchased for. This may still be an option but you would need legal advise because you have now opted to treat it.

No matter what you do please do LOTS MORE RESEARCH before ever contemplating breeding dogs. The skin problems with Blues in SBTs are very well documented. Just a little research could have prevented you ending up with a dog like this. If you plan to breed them you need to know that the breed is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier not English Staffordshire Terrier and also need to be aware that blues cannot have a black nose and therefore cannot conform to the breed standard. Reputable breeders generally do not breed from blues and never ever do blue to blue matings because of the associated health issues.

I have already desexed the dog, and my other staffys are black/brindles. I intend to spend more time reading backgrounds on anything if i were to ever approach breeding again, i have been reading about this skin illness since it was discovered in my dog but google can only do so much and i weekly question my vet from sulfar free shampoo to leave in condition for my dogs coat i am hitting every possibility and am researching it throughly without delay!

[Allerzeit]

My location didnt change correctly when i made my profile but i live in tasmania, think there would only be about 20 vets statewide.. and sadly ive gone off references from the canine association for the vet.. But Im not giving up

Oh, I think there's a few more than that! ;)

If you're in the southern region, then I would highly recommend giving David Boersma at Sandy Bay Holistic a try - http://sandybayvet.com.au/

You need to be working on your dogs immune system, and an holistic approach might be worth a go :)