Very Sad Day At The Vet Today

[Maddy]

If the options had run out it is because she didn't care enough to plan in advance, or is not willing to look after the dog for a few more months. As a Victorian racing participant she would have been informed in writing of what her options are so she could make plans at the appropriate time. She mentioned GAP as an excuse for what she did, and she did it dishonestly. She offered no other excuse. She expected people to accept that excuse, because people generally do not understand how to place a dog in GAP. But now everyone here has been informed of how GAP does work, her dishonesty has been revealed. Don't try to offer excuses for dishonesty even if you do excuse what happened to the dog.

This is the bit that really gets my goat.

People blaming the rehoming groups and making the public believe that they wanted to save the dog but the mean rehoming group wouldn't take it and now they have to put it to sleep

[Aidan3]

It was a pretty confusing conversation for me, as on one hand she said it broke her heart to do it, on the other hand she didn't have time to sit around all day as she had errands to run.

I'm fostering a dog at the moment and the previous owner left a heart-felt public message about how much she loved him and how much it saddened her to see such a wonderful dog go, but she just couldn't keep him. What she forgot to mention was the she kept him on a chain, and replaced him literally within a week of surrendering him. These sorts of stories often don't add up, and sometimes I wonder if their owners even realise that they are incongruent (i.e they genuinely believe their own stories, but lack insight).

[Baileys mum]

I get so sick of the simplistic 'lets just ban it' attitude.

Without horse racing would all the luxury such as feed, vet care, etc etc exist - would someone really have tried magnetic therapy, pellet food, stem cell research, colic surgery advances all wihtout the existnt of horse racing? Th eare photos in magazines from the 50s showing the 'new' way of transporting horses these days its so advanced that horses travelling around the world in special boxes to minimise injury - you cant say racing didnot help any of this along.

Perhaps greyhound racing has done the same in many techniqus - I don't know as I dont follow it but there seems plenty of treatments and theries used on racedogs now also used on pets.

Yes I hate it when the dogs are treated as throwaways (never got an answer years ago when I asked dog racing people if dogs have litters then where are brett Lees litter mates (that was the standout champ at the time). I also think its awful that if a gyhound breaks a leg in a race that its normally put down - cannot see why since dogs unlike horses can live with even three legs if need be. Only answer Ive heard is that its too hard to get them fit again Am I going to rave on about banning well no because this is stuff the industry itself should be working towards and its up to those 'good' participants to get the authorities to crack down on the 'bad' aspects.

As for that woman and the greyhound at the vet My judgement would have been made after one question - will you sell or give the dog away right now here at the vet (either they wanted to rehome it and had run out of options or they wanted it dead and that question answers that).

And yes I have heard of greyhounds taken to the vet where the person takign them has refused a last minute rehome offer and insisted the dog put down - likewise have heard stories of racing owners demanding a horse be sold to the knackery no matter what and trainers/handlers finding a way to rehome the horse 'witness protection' style.

That would have to be the weakest argument I have ever seen for perpetuating the racing industry, and given that all of the arguments are fairly weak that's saying something!

And for those saying what would happen to all the racing animals if the industry were banned now? The same thing that happens already - most die - the only difference is that the cycle would stop. Keeping it going out of some illusion that animals are being 'saved' is ridiculous, it's the same argument they tried to use to justify jumps racing, it 'saves' horses from being dogged, when in reality it just delays the inevitable.

Take the industry out and make the sport a hobby with the welfare of the animals a priority, that is the only way forward.

The fact that there are worse atrocities committed against animals in no way negates the awfulness of a dog being put down because the owner couldn't be arsed finding a home for it, I have no idea why anyone would think that argument could possibly mollify the people who object to the obscene wastage of the racing industries.

Great Post WnH

[Maddy]

It was a pretty confusing conversation for me, as on one hand she said it broke her heart to do it, on the other hand she didn't have time to sit around all day as she had errands to run.

I'm fostering a dog at the moment and the previous owner left a heart-felt public message about how much she loved him and how much it saddened her to see such a wonderful dog go, but she just couldn't keep him. What she forgot to mention was the she kept him on a chain, and replaced him literally within a week of surrendering him. These sorts of stories often don't add up, and sometimes I wonder if their owners even realise that they are incongruent (i.e they genuinely believe their own stories, but lack insight).

I'll admit I've often wondered that myself and in my opinion (bearing in mind this is just opinion, I have no proof of this), they honestly seem to believe they are doing no wrong.

They enjoy the sympathy they get from family and friends on "losing" their "beloved" dog and then get a new one that "doesn't have any issues like the old one did".

We have a surrendered pet grey here at the moment that backs that opinion up- a stunning, sweet, perfectly behaved girl- who was surrendered because she didn't have good recall. The reason was ridiculous but the owner seemed genuinely upset to surrender her (so that she could get a more suitable dog).

[Noelle]

[voloclydes]

lets see the figure quoted was 8,600?ish greys in vic alone... with only 400ish being rehomed..

even if every one on dol took one dog... there would still be more dogs than homes...and the next year another 8,000ish?

its a huge industry.... and i am not sure there is another answer..

i give the woman full credit for doing what needed to be done tho. the dog may not have been suitable for rehoming and there are worse things than a dignified end. much worse.

nice of you to only quote the bit you had a problem with.... but still what if this dog was one of the 8,201 that do get pts...there just is no answer with numbers like that combined with how many thousand other dogs that get dumped at pounds and breed rescue.

the fact that most would just drop the dog off at the vet/pound and have the vet dump the body at the tip. i think she showed some guts to stay with him/her. most that dump the dog at the pound think it is magically rehomed so its not like "they" killed the dog.

our local tip its not uncommon from a town of only a few thousand, to see up 8 dead dogs on any given day at the tip...does one assume that all were pts due to old age?

in an ideal world it shouldn't happen, but it does... and it seems with very few solutions. it doesn't mean its right, but in 10 pages there is lots of judgement but not one solution that would work. micro chipping was said to be the end of this sort of thing... i don't think much has changed.

[Dame Aussie]

I get so sick of the simplistic 'lets just ban it' attitude.

Without horse racing would all the luxury such as feed, vet care, etc etc exist - would someone really have tried magnetic therapy, pellet food, stem cell research, colic surgery advances all wihtout the existnt of horse racing? Th eare photos in magazines from the 50s showing the 'new' way of transporting horses these days its so advanced that horses travelling around the world in special boxes to minimise injury - you cant say racing didnot help any of this along.

Perhaps greyhound racing has done the same in many techniqus - I don't know as I dont follow it but there seems plenty of treatments and theries used on racedogs now also used on pets.

Yes I hate it when the dogs are treated as throwaways (never got an answer years ago when I asked dog racing people if dogs have litters then where are brett Lees litter mates (that was the standout champ at the time). I also think its awful that if a gyhound breaks a leg in a race that its normally put down - cannot see why since dogs unlike horses can live with even three legs if need be. Only answer Ive heard is that its too hard to get them fit again Am I going to rave on about banning well no because this is stuff the industry itself should be working towards and its up to those 'good' participants to get the authorities to crack down on the 'bad' aspects.

As for that woman and the greyhound at the vet My judgement would have been made after one question - will you sell or give the dog away right now here at the vet (either they wanted to rehome it and had run out of options or they wanted it dead and that question answers that).

And yes I have heard of greyhounds taken to the vet where the person takign them has refused a last minute rehome offer and insisted the dog put down - likewise have heard stories of racing owners demanding a horse be sold to the knackery no matter what and trainers/handlers finding a way to rehome the horse 'witness protection' style.

That would have to be the weakest argument I have ever seen for perpetuating the racing industry, and given that all of the arguments are fairly weak that's saying something!

And for those saying what would happen to all the racing animals if the industry were banned now? The same thing that happens already - most die - the only difference is that the cycle would stop. Keeping it going out of some illusion that animals are being 'saved' is ridiculous, it's the same argument they tried to use to justify jumps racing, it 'saves' horses from being dogged, when in reality it just delays the inevitable.

Take the industry out and make the sport a hobby with the welfare of the animals a priority, that is the only way forward.

The fact that there are worse atrocities committed against animals in no way negates the awfulness of a dog being put down because the owner couldn't be arsed finding a home for it, I have no idea why anyone would think that argument could possibly mollify the people who object to the obscene wastage of the racing industries.

[Dame Aussie]

It was a pretty confusing conversation for me, as on one hand she said it broke her heart to do it, on the other hand she didn't have time to sit around all day as she had errands to run.

I'm fostering a dog at the moment and the previous owner left a heart-felt public message about how much she loved him and how much it saddened her to see such a wonderful dog go, but she just couldn't keep him. What she forgot to mention was the she kept him on a chain, and replaced him literally within a week of surrendering him. These sorts of stories often don't add up, and sometimes I wonder if their owners even realise that they are incongruent (i.e they genuinely believe their own stories, but lack insight).

I'll admit I've often wondered that myself and in my opinion (bearing in mind this is just opinion, I have no proof of this), they honestly seem to believe they are doing no wrong.

They enjoy the sympathy they get from family and friends on "losing" their "beloved" dog and then get a new one that "doesn't have any issues like the old one did".

We have a surrendered pet grey here at the moment that backs that opinion up- a stunning, sweet, perfectly behaved girl- who was surrendered because she didn't have good recall. The reason was ridiculous but the owner seemed genuinely upset to surrender her (so that she could get a more suitable dog).

She is beautiful HA!

[Polecatty]

[quote name='Hardy's Angel'

And Polecatty..

I hate to sound condescending here but you have no idea. I've seen plenty of dogs for whom humane euthanasia would have been a mercy. I cared for one last year (which ended in him having to be PTS) and in my opinion, his trainer keeping him on the verge of death constantly was far crueler than what the woman in the OP did.

Some things really are worse than death and for greyhounds, just existing in a run, being fed the cheapest food and being kept alive for the sake of being kept alive is probably one of those fates I'd consider "worse".

Of course, if you have a suggestion that would make both rescue groups and the racing industry happy, by all means share it

Typo

You do sound rather condescending when you make assumptions about whether or not a person has any knowledge of or experiences with the grey industry- I do, consequently, and have seen worse than a dog getting the green needle. This has not made me more inclined to be permissive or accepting of trainers who have their dogs killed once they are no longer profitable, however.:)

No one is denying that there are crueler things that can happen to a greyhound than the green needle. That isn't really the point and I don't believe that I made any such statement in my post. If you think i did then please point it out.

My point was, and I reiterate 'one does not need to excuse or ignore a morally questionable practice just because a worse practice exists'.

I have seen what I consider to be ethical greyhound racing and I do not consider those who dispose of dogs once they are not winning to be in that category. Your mileage may vary.

I'm sorry for what you experienced last year; it must have been horrible. However please do not make assumptions about a person's knowledge simply because they find things that aren't as explicitly cruel questionable or unethical- I think we have the scope to be able to question a wide variety of practices. Not just the worst of the worst.

I'm not interested in making the greyhound racing industry happy any more than I am interested in making a puppy mill operation happy.

[Maddy]

You do sound rather condescending when you make assumptions about whether or not a person has any knowledge of or experiences with the grey industry- I do, consequently, and have seen worse than a dog getting the green needle. This has not made me more inclined to be permissive or accepting of trainers who have their dogs killed once they are no longer profitable, however.:)

No one is denying that there are crueler things that can happen to a greyhound than the green needle. That isn't really the point and I don't believe that I made any such statement in my post. If you think i did then please point it out.

My point was, and I reiterate 'one does not need to excuse or ignore a morally questionable practice just because a worse practice exists'.

I have seen what I consider to be ethical greyhound racing and I do not consider those who dispose of dogs once they are not winning to be in that category. Your mileage may vary.

I'm sorry for what you experienced last year; it must have been horrible. However please do not make assumptions about a person's knowledge simply because they find things that aren't as explicitly cruel questionable or unethical- I think we have the scope to be able to question a wide variety of practices. Not just the worst of the worst.

I'm not interested in making the greyhound racing industry happy any more than I am interested in making a puppy mill operation happy.

What it comes down to (this should be obvious but I wouldn't want to assume you'd figure this out ;) ) is that, as it stands, there are excess dogs and not enough homes for them, leaving trainers with three options- humanely euthanise, keep the dog and provide minimal care (in terms of costs) or keep the dog and provide it at least adequate care.

The third option is usually out. Owners aren't generally willing to pay to keep dogs that aren't working- this isn't fair or ideal but it's the reality of the situation.

This leaves options one and two. Option one is very likely going to be kinder on the dog, simple as that.

This is not an excuse, this is making the best possible choice for the welfare of the animal. If I had to choose between a pile of greyhounds being put to sleep or a pile of greyhounds being retained with substandard care/feeding, after what I've seen, I'd pick the green dream for them, every time. This isn't because I'm a heartless bitch but because I've seen that suffering, held it as it died and then had to live with that decision.

Your view on things, in my opinion, is incredibly simplistic.

The racing industry has a lot to answer for but in the meantime, they're here and we have to do what's best for the dogs that are currently excess to requirements.

Working with the industry is the best way to achieve small wins for the dogs that add up to improved quality of life and better welfare practices. Fighting and attacking gets the dogs nothing- and if the dogs aren't benefitting, welfare isn't your concern- that's animal rights and that's a whooooole other story.

[Greytmate]

nice of you to only quote the bit you had a problem with.... but still what if this dog was one of the 8,201 that do get pts...there just is no answer with numbers like that combined with how many thousand other dogs that get dumped at pounds and breed rescue.

the fact that most would just drop the dog off at the vet/pound and have the vet dump the body at the tip. i think she showed some guts to stay with him/her. most that dump the dog at the pound think it is magically rehomed so its not like "they" killed the dog.

our local tip its not uncommon from a town of only a few thousand, to see up 8 dead dogs on any given day at the tip...does one assume that all were pts due to old age?

in an ideal world it shouldn't happen, but it does... and it seems with very few solutions. it doesn't mean its right, but in 10 pages there is lots of judgement but not one solution that would work. micro chipping was said to be the end of this sort of thing... i don't think much has changed.

Of course I am going to quote the part that I wanted to draw attention to instead of your whole post. It's called being concise.

So why give credit to her? In order to keep her racing licence she wouldn't be allowed to dump that dog at a pound. Microchipping was never said to be the end of this thing. The solution is to reduce the number of greyhounds bred and increase the number placed in homes as pets. Anyone doing that gets credit, not the ones that can't be bothered. We don't even know that the woman did stay with that dog, or whether she just stayed long enough to get her paperwork signed by the vet.

Now let's get back to the judgement. I feel sorry for Mr Mister having to hear the rubbish coming out of that woman's mouth and knowing what was going to happen to that beautiful dog. Rather than being sensitive because she has never seen this before, I would say the more you see it the more sensitive you might get.

[Polecatty]

You do sound rather condescending when you make assumptions about whether or not a person has any knowledge of or experiences with the grey industry- I do, consequently, and have seen worse than a dog getting the green needle. This has not made me more inclined to be permissive or accepting of trainers who have their dogs killed once they are no longer profitable, however.:)

No one is denying that there are crueler things that can happen to a greyhound than the green needle. That isn't really the point and I don't believe that I made any such statement in my post. If you think i did then please point it out.

My point was, and I reiterate 'one does not need to excuse or ignore a morally questionable practice just because a worse practice exists'.

I have seen what I consider to be ethical greyhound racing and I do not consider those who dispose of dogs once they are not winning to be in that category. Your mileage may vary.

I'm sorry for what you experienced last year; it must have been horrible. However please do not make assumptions about a person's knowledge simply because they find things that aren't as explicitly cruel questionable or unethical- I think we have the scope to be able to question a wide variety of practices. Not just the worst of the worst.

I'm not interested in making the greyhound racing industry happy any more than I am interested in making a puppy mill operation happy.

What it comes down to (this should be obvious but I wouldn't want to assume you'd figure this out ;) ) is that, as it stands, there are excess dogs and not enough homes for them, leaving trainers with three options- humanely euthanise, keep the dog and provide minimal care (in terms of costs) or keep the dog and provide it at least adequate care.

The third option is usually out. Owners aren't generally willing to pay to keep dogs that aren't working- this isn't fair or ideal but it's the reality of the situation.

This leaves options one and two. Option one is very likely going to be kinder on the dog, simple as that.

This is not an excuse, this is making the best possible choice for the welfare of the animal. If I had to choose between a pile of greyhounds being put to sleep or a pile of greyhounds being retained with substandard care/feeding, after what I've seen, I'd pick the green dream for them, every time. This isn't because I'm a heartless bitch but because I've seen that suffering, held it as it died and then had to live with that decision.

Your view on things, in my opinion, is incredibly simplistic.

The racing industry has a lot to answer for but in the meantime, they're here and we have to do what's best for the dogs that are currently excess to requirements.

Working with the industry is the best way to achieve small wins for the dogs that add up to improved quality of life and better welfare practices. Fighting and attacking gets the dogs nothing- and if the dogs aren't benefitting, welfare isn't your concern- that's animal rights and that's a whooooole other story.

As would I, if those were the only options. However, I still don't think you quite understand why I find it upsetting or the angle I am coming from here. It isn't necessarily just about the individual dog that was put down- it is [at least for me] about the pervasive attitudes within the greyhound industry that leads to the overbreeding and large amounts of wastage. It is exactly your first point that I find distasteful.

Do you personally find it disgusting that so many greys have so few good options once their racing careers are over? If so then we are in agreement.

As for your last paragraph- I happen to be in agreement with that also. As a tactic working with the industry to increase welfare works well. However from a personal viewpoint I do not need to be nearly so diplomatic. I hope you understand the distinction and see that whilst I would love to see greyhound racing severely [comparatively] restricted I also know that it isn't something that can be achieved overnight and that sometimes goals are best achieved by working within the system. That still doesn't mean that I'm interested in keeping racing people happy, or that I have to excuse trainers who euthanise healthy dogs- I'm interested in the welfare of the dogs and am allowed to feel angry about practices that don't have their best interests at heart.

My simplistic view [;)] is that the lady in the OP didn't have the dog's welfare at heart. She was making room for a new racing prospect. That's all. Preferable to some of the other options? Sure. The green dream beats having your ears hacked off and being dumped out along the highway. But she could also have done much better.

I'm not a supporter of animal rights.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Polecatty

[huntrox]

I'm disgusted by it, I have never and will never support greyhound racing, people making money off the dogs and then when no good, they get rid of them. RIP beautiful gir, sorry you couldnt be loved for being just you.

[Maddy]

As would I, if those were the only options. However, I still don't think you quite understand why I find it upsetting or the angle I am coming from here. It isn't necessarily just about the individual dog that was put down- it is [at least for me] about the pervasive attitudes within the greyhound industry that leads to the overbreeding and large amounts of wastage. It is exactly your first point that I find distasteful.

Do you personally find it disgusting that so many greys have so few good options once their racing careers are over? If so then we are in agreement.

As for your last paragraph- I happen to be in agreement with that also. As a tactic working with the industry to increase welfare works well. However from a personal viewpoint I do not need to be nearly so diplomatic. I hope you understand the distinction and see that whilst I would love to see greyhound racing severely [comparatively] restricted I also know that it isn't something that can be achieved overnight and that sometimes goals are best achieved by working within the system. That still doesn't mean that I'm interested in keeping racing people happy, or that I have to excuse trainers who euthanise healthy dogs- I'm interested in the welfare of the dogs and am allowed to feel angry about practices that don't have their best interests at heart.

My simplistic view [;)] is that the lady in the OP didn't have the dog's welfare at heart. She was making room for a new racing prospect. That's all. Preferable to some of the other options? Sure. The green dream beats having your ears hacked off and being dumped out along the highway. But she could also have done much better.

I'm not a supporter of animal rights.

Obviously they aren't literally the only options but they are practically the only options.

An industry like the greyhound racing industry operates to make money. This is the basis of the problem but also something that will exist as long as the industry does. The situation is unlikely to change and unless trainers/breeders/owners are forced to restrict numbers or operate with only the animal's welfare in mind, it comes back to options one and two, in the end.

Neither option is ideal but one is certainly better than the other. That said.. do I support what this woman did? Lazy at best, damaging to rehoming groups at worst. See previous posts on that particular bit.

The overbreeding is really a whole other issue.

Rehoming certainly would be easier with less dogs but not all trainers choose to rehome their dogs anyway so dogs will still be destroyed or inappropriately retained. The other issue is maintaining good genetic diversity so that we don't end up with HD, greyhound neuropathy, etc.

Personally, I'd like to see it returned to a hobby where trainers are allowed only a very small number of dogs and each one of those dogs must be appropriately planned for. We get to keep our racing-bred greyhounds (which, in my opinion [can't emphasise that bit enough], are a superior dog as far as health is concerned) but without the welfare or overbreeding concerns.

[WreckitWhippet]

Not every trainer races for the money. I race because I enjoy the sport, the dogs get the best of everything, there's no cheap arse food here and no skimping on what the dogs need, win or lose, they all get fed premium diets and have plenty of love and attention and I'm not alone.

There are more trainers out there like this, it's catching on but sadly not quick enough

[Maddy]

Not every trainer races for the money. I race because I enjoy the sport, the dogs get the best of everything, there's no cheap arse food here and no skimping on what the dogs need, win or lose, they all get fed premium diets and have plenty of love and attention and I'm not alone.

There are more trainers out there like this, it's catching on but sadly not quick enough

You'd probably fit the description of a hobby trainer anyway, rather than a trainer who does it as a primary source of income.

If more trainers operated as you do, we wouldn't be in the situation we are now- people demanding the sport be banned entirely. It's an unfortunate fact that is has become what it is because of the people involved and ultimately, this may lose everyone the sport and the healthy dogs.

I don't hold out much hope that the industry members will realise this before it's too late

Typo

Edited February 24, 2012 by Hardy's Angel

[Sheridan]

How is the greyhound 'industry' regulated in relation to the dogs?

[WoofnHoof]

Not every trainer races for the money. I race because I enjoy the sport, the dogs get the best of everything, there's no cheap arse food here and no skimping on what the dogs need, win or lose, they all get fed premium diets and have plenty of love and attention and I'm not alone.

There are more trainers out there like this, it's catching on but sadly not quick enough

You'd probably fit the description of a hobby trainer anyway, rather than a trainer who does it as a primary source of income.

If more trainers operated as you do, we wouldn't be in the situation we are now- people demanding the sport be banned entirely. It's an unfortunate fact that is has become what it is because of the people involved and ultimately, this may lose everyone the sport and the healthy dogs.

I don't hold out much hope that the industry members will realise this before it's too late

Typo

It wont happen while the TAB keeps funding both horse and dog racing, since tabcorp cares little enough about human welfare they sure aren't going to let animal welfare issues affect their profit margin.

[WreckitWhippet]

How is the greyhound 'industry' regulated in relation to the dogs?

very heavily in terms of what you can and can't do with them, especially when it comes to housing them. They have very strict rules and regs and a LOT of them, it's just a shame that once you pass your trainers exam and initial kennel inspection, that they don't come back after that.

A dogs where abouts or "custody" is supposed to be known by the GRA at all times.

Is there any specifics that you'd like to know ?

[Maddy]

How is the greyhound 'industry' regulated in relation to the dogs?

What do you mean, exactly?

The care of the dogs? This varies from state to state, same with breeding. Disposal may also vary but I'd assume (given there an't many options) that it'd be more or less the same for each state.

Here is the Tasmanian version (note that it's the Recommended Standard of Care)

http://www.racing.tas.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/71028/Recommended_Standards_APPROVED_23.07.07.pdf

Edited to add..

More general rules- http://www.racing.tas.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/42426/Local_Rules_updated_JANUARY_01_2009.pdf

Edited February 24, 2012 by Hardy's Angel