Desexing Contracts

[Roova]

If they believed it was show/breeding quality they would try and sell it as a main register puppy and get more money for it in the process.

Im not sure that's always the case. Some breeds seem to rarely have main registered puppies available. It seems unless you know the right person or are already showing it's difficult to enter the showing scene with a breed you really liked and wanted to start out with (but which might be considered rare or expensive).

A lot of ads for these types of breeds seem to offer all puppies on limited only. Is it to keep the puppies safe from those who would breed them without purpose, or because most of the puppies aren't show quality? If its because they aren't show quality wouldn't that be cause for concern in regards to breeding plans?

Edited February 26, 2012 by Roova

[Topoftheheap]

If they believed it was show/breeding quality they would try and sell it as a main register puppy and get more money for it in the process.

Im not sure that's always the case. Some breeds seem to rarely have main registered puppies available. It seems unless you know the right person or are already showing it's difficult to enter the showing scene with a breed you really liked and wanted to start out with (but which might be considered rare or expensive).

A lot of ads for these types of breeds seem to offer all puppies on limited only. Is it to keep the puppies safe from those who would breed them without purpose, or because most of the puppies aren't show quality? If its because they aren't show quality wouldn't that be cause for concern in regards to breeding plans?

ALL of the show dogs I have bought have been from people who only sell/ and or advertise thier dogs for sale on limited. I just had to talk to them, explain who i was, my motives, etc and they have become the most trusted and loyal supporters. We knew no-one and nothing, and I have managed to buy show quality puppies and become a breeder. I admit yes, I was rejected by a whole heap, who now I am known offer me pups, but I suppose its because they get burnt that they are so careful. And yes, I think the majority are sold on limited due to the breeding concern, but there are simply those that have traits that shouldn't be bred from (even minor ones like mis-marks, wrong tailsets, etc.)

[Topoftheheap]

I personally believe in compulsory desexing for all dogs sold that are not sold on main registration, and that doesn't just include dogs on limited, I mean designer dogs, cross-breeds, puppy farm owned dogs, etc. I see it as the only way to stop the overpopulation of dogs in this country and others..

Wow. This statement is basically saying that the ANKC should be the ultimate arbiters of all dog-kind. That would be horrific, especially given they aren't the only register (working registers for example), and even worse, would mean the eradication of Koolies

E: there are plenty of reasons for breeding dogs that have nothing to do with conforming to a show standard. Horses for courses.

I agree, horses for courses, and I agree that would mean that they would become the ultimate arbiters. I believe there should be an ultimate arbiter of ALL dogs, of ALL registers. . Maybe that way we could begin to start a future for dogs that are born as healthily and happily as possible, reduce overpopulation, etc, etc. However, I do admit that even within the ANKC there are registered breeders that are puppy farmers in all but name.

But I do believe that we should have a major overhaul in the way dogs are bred, sold, etc in general. We should have an overseeing body that controls ALL dogs. Its a fantasy I know, but in an ideal world that would be what happens. why don't the ANKC recognise Koolies? (im not up to date on that particular debate) is there any Koolie organisation working towards registration? or have they been denied it?

[WreckitWhippet]

How else are we to eradicate the many hereditary problems that are out there if we do not stop those affected or are carriers being bred from? How do we stop the social problem of unwanted dogs ending up in shelters? How do we stop our purebred dogs becoming the parents of future breeds of designer dogs, and cross-breeds if we do not stop them being bred from?

Registered breeders bred from carriers and as long as the status is known, then it's fine to do so. Why chuck out the baby with the bath water

[Weasels]

why don't the ANKC recognise Koolies? (im not up to date on that particular debate) is there any Koolie organisation working towards registration? or have they been denied it?

I'm not really up to date on it either, the koolie people would be better placed to answer. They are allowed on the Sporting Register but I don't know if they are interested in getting general recognition. They keep their own register, and are non-ANKC for the same reasons that the Working Kelpie Council keeps their own register - conforming to a physical standard is not helpful (and would probably be detrimental) to having a good working dog. Which is why kelpies are divided into bench and working lines, so the people that want to show can show and the people that want them to work can continue to not care what they look like as long as they can do the job.

[StaffordLUV]

i think to trust the future of dog breeds just to the ANKC is to put all its eggs in one basket and not very wise.

And as for charging more for main register puppies that is just plain money grabbing.

You breed your dogs to have something yourself to show, then you sell the rest of the litter.

If you arent breeding to make money (which everyone claims they arent) then you should just be charging the cost of microchipping,registration, worming and raising a litter.

In that sense it cost no more to raise show prospect than it does a pet puppy so why are do main register puppies cost more?

As i see it if you breed your dog and get say 7 pups then say 2 show prospect puppies out of the litter after testing etc, you keep 1 of the puppies and have another left but dont have the room to run on the second dog, wouldnt it make sense to have that dog out there somewhere incase something happens to your show prospect?

I had this same situation a few years ago and thank goodness i did.

As i bred VERY sparingly i would have lost my line completely if i hadnt had my other dog somewhere i could use him.

If all dogs went out desexed then i would have been very stuck indeed.

[Salukifan]

In that sense it cost no more to raise show prospect than it does a pet puppy so why are do main register puppies cost more?.

In my experience they don't. I don't know anyone who charges more for show prospects than for pets.

[Salukifan]

Weasels

conforming to a physical standard is not helpful (and would probably be detrimental) to having a good working dog.

On the contrary, certain physical charactersitics are essential in all good working dogs. No point in having a dog with the brain for the job if structually it can't perform as required.

That was the basis for most breed standards developed.

Its INTERPRETATION of breed standards and the lack of testing for function that's seem 'working' and 'bench' lines develop in breeds.

[Alyosha]

Slightly OT sorry... Surely there are more than 4 or 5 WSS in Australia?? There were 7 exhibited at Canberra Royal yesterday...

[Crisovar]

why don't the ANKC recognise Koolies? (im not up to date on that particular debate) is there any Koolie organisation working towards registration? or have they been denied it?

I'm not really up to date on it either, the koolie people would be better placed to answer. They are allowed on the Sporting Register but I don't know if they are interested in getting general recognition. They keep their own register, and are non-ANKC for the same reasons that the Working Kelpie Council keeps their own register - conforming to a physical standard is not helpful (and would probably be detrimental) to having a good working dog. Which is why kelpies are divided into bench and working lines, so the people that want to show can show and the people that want them to work can continue to not care what they look like as long as they can do the job.

This shows a clear lack of understanding of what a Breed Standard is, the standards describes the PHYSICAL attributes necessary to perform the task required.

Have a read here for an example

Labrador

[Weasels]

Weasels

conforming to a physical standard is not helpful (and would probably be detrimental) to having a good working dog.

On the contrary, certain physical charactersitics are essential in all good working dogs. No point in having a dog with the brain for the job if structually it can't perform as required.

That was the basis for most breed standards developed.

Its INTERPRETATION of breed standards and the lack of testing for function that's seem 'working' and 'bench' lines develop in breeds.

Yes, and I would count the necessary physical attributes under 'the ability to do the job'

The sort of thing I was referring to is that the bench standard doesn't allow cream coats or white marks. If someone is using a dog to earn a living, and they have a good dog with a white chest, no way are they going to ditch that dog for that reason.

I am all for breed standards and showing, but I'm just pointing out that not all breeders share the direction and ethos of the ANKC.

[Weasels]

This shows a clear lack of understanding of what a Breed Standard is, the standards describes the PHYSICAL attributes necessary to perform the task required.

Have a read here for an example

Labrador

Nonetheless, it is how some owners of working dogs feel. From the koolie club website:

We do not tell people how to breed their dogs, we give our members credit for knowing what they want to achieve to suit their own situation, but are here to offer suggestions or assistance if inexperienced or experienced breeders feel they need some advice. For this reason we have not laid down a 'breed standard' at this time as we accept that the different styles of Koolies suite the many and varied jobs they undertake. We also feel that we need to give the breed time to evolve a little before trying to mould the physical attributes to a 'standard'. Although Koolies have been around since the 1800's this is the first register and after 11 years and 800+ registrations it is still in it's infancy, time will see breeding within the gene pool evolve a style and size of koolie most suited to today and maybe then we can consider a 'standard'.

edit: and from the WKC - http://www.wkc.org.au/Characteristics.php which makes it quite clear that their vision for kelpies diverges from the ANKC's

Edited February 27, 2012 by Weasels

[Salukifan]

The sort of thing I was referring to is that the bench standard doesn't allow cream coats or white marks. If someone is using a dog to earn a living, and they have a good dog with a white chest, no way are they going to ditch that dog for that reason.

I am all for breed standards and showing, but I'm just pointing out that not all breeders share the direction and ethos of the ANKC.

There are plenty of bench standards that are pretty much silent on the issue of colour though.

I'll quote Whippets as an example:

COLOURAny colour or mixture of colours.

I appreciate that there are some aspects of some breed standard that appear to be purely cosmetic and that would have little if any application to breeders of working dogs. But understanding the 'why' aspects of the specifications in breed standards can be very important and in some breeds, colour DOES matter.

[bulldogz4eva]

Hello Guys

I'm starting this topic to clear some things up about "desexing contracts" and its mainly directed towards any breeders out there and I'd appreciate your personal opinion on the matter.

I've been looking into getting a dog soon after not owning one for several years and I have never acquired one from a pedigree breeder. It seems most breeders of the particular breed I'm after usually specify "desexing contracts" when the dog is purchased.

I'm not personally interested in breeding myself at all and if I got a female I wouldn't have a problem abiding to the "desexing contract" but if I was to get a male I wouldn't agree to cutting off his man hood for my own personal reasons.(sorry if any one finds this sexist ;)

I'd like to know

- do breeders want there pups to be desexed so they personally can have a better / more lucrative position in the market?

- is it because they personally want to keep the breeds gene pool free of problems or some thing of that nature?

-???

I could handle a male dog getting vasectomy but, as breeders would any of you guys be happy with that or be willing to pay the difference if significant?

Im also pretty sure that a desexing contract isn't going to get a start in court especially seeing how my dog would only be for companionship BUT

I personally would never deceive a breeder to acquire a dog with out holding up to my end of the contract.

Thanks for your feedback

Weasel :-)

Lock in A please Eddie.lol.

[Romana]

there are separate classes not mixed, classes are run the same as ANKC, but more options. Only opportuntiy really to compare with what you are producing unfortunately. Someone mentioned German Shepherds. Yes genetically, but bred to the standard of the White Swiss Shepherd. White German Shepherds look like German Shepherds, White "Swiss Shepherds" look like White Swiss Shepherds bred under ANKC or WSSDCA. So there are actually 3 classifications. Australian bred White Shepherd bred to WSS standard registered with the WSSDCA non ANKC if bred in AUS (if you send overeseas it is recognised), White German Shepherd bred under ANKC German Shepherd standard (can go on ANKC limited register) and a ANKC registered WSS (only allowed if from imported bloodlines).

Hey ... I only stumbled a bit over the one word "unfortunately". I wish to make clear that I do breed according to the Swiss standard, not the current German Shepherd one, and I bet that all our progeny would receive FCI papers if they were exported overseas. I strongly oppose to calling my shepherds "German" Shepherds, but I know the ANKC doesn't want us to call Aussie-bred dogs "Swiss", so I just call them "White Shepherd Dogs", until ANKC finds a better way of assessment. I have no problem with that, but I want to stress that my "produce" is most certainly not "unfortunate" in terms of genetic quality.

[Romana]

This forum has made me shake my head in disbelief. I can't believe the number of people on a pure-breed dog forum who condone the intentional or unintentional breeding of dogs on the limited register.

I am not talking about dogs on main register, ...

Excuse me, I am new to the Australian dog breeding/showing world. What does "main register" and "limited register" mean?

[~Shepherd~]

there are separate classes not mixed, classes are run the same as ANKC, but more options. Only opportuntiy really to compare with what you are producing unfortunately. Someone mentioned German Shepherds. Yes genetically, but bred to the standard of the White Swiss Shepherd. White German Shepherds look like German Shepherds, White "Swiss Shepherds" look like White Swiss Shepherds bred under ANKC or WSSDCA. So there are actually 3 classifications. Australian bred White Shepherd bred to WSS standard registered with the WSSDCA non ANKC if bred in AUS (if you send overeseas it is recognised), White German Shepherd bred under ANKC German Shepherd standard (can go on ANKC limited register) and a ANKC registered WSS (only allowed if from imported bloodlines).

Hey ... I only stumbled a bit over the one word "unfortunately". I wish to make clear that I do breed according to the Swiss standard, not the current German Shepherd one, and I bet that all our progeny would receive FCI papers if they were exported overseas. I strongly oppose to calling my shepherds "German" Shepherds, but I know the ANKC doesn't want us to call Aussie-bred dogs "Swiss", so I just call them "White Shepherd Dogs", until ANKC finds a better way of assessment. I have no problem with that, but I want to stress that my "produce" is most certainly not "unfortunate" in terms of genetic quality.

I know your lines Romana and have seen some of your dogs, I think they are lovely. I only said unfortunately as we only get 2 opportunities per year unlike the ANKC nothing else intended by the word "unfortunately".

[Romana]

I know your lines Romana and have seen some of your dogs, I think they are lovely. I only said unfortunately as we only get 2 opportunities per year unlike the ANKC nothing else intended by the word "unfortunately".

Thanks, no worries!

[espinay2]

I appreciate that there are some aspects of some breed standard that appear to be purely cosmetic and that would have little if any application to breeders of working dogs. But understanding the 'why' aspects of the specifications in breed standards can be very important and in some breeds, colour DOES matter.

Very true and sometimes it is by knowing the history behind how the standard developed that we begin to understand why some of these things were included in the first place. Take my breed (Pyrenean Mountain Dog) which specifies colour and particularly that black to the root is a disqualifying fault. It specifies particular requirements regarding eye rim, lip and roof of mouth pigment. It also specifies double dew claws.

On the surface all these things seem very cosmetic. That is until you understand that black on the dog was taken by the French shepherds to be a sign of crossbreeding with herding dogs (which introduced behaviour traits they didnt want in a LGD) so these puppies were regularly culled/removed as they didnt function well at their job. Pigment was important as it reflected glare (particularly on snow - helping prevent snow blindness), prevented sunburn and also helped prevent deafness (given the link between lack of 'pigment' in the inner ear and deafness) which they instinctively could note as a correlation. Double dewclaws were also taken as a sign of 'breed purity' by the shepherds and another way to avoid the introduction of unwanted behaviour traits.

For these reasons I encourage people who may wonder about the so called 'superficial' specifications in a standard to first consider exactly WHY they were put there in the first place before dismissing them outright. There might be an actual reason for them being put there.

[Crisovar]

I appreciate that there are some aspects of some breed standard that appear to be purely cosmetic and that would have little if any application to breeders of working dogs. But understanding the 'why' aspects of the specifications in breed standards can be very important and in some breeds, colour DOES matter.

Very true and sometimes it is by knowing the history behind how the standard developed that we begin to understand why some of these things were included in the first place. Take my breed (Pyrenean Mountain Dog) which specifies colour and particularly that black to the root is a disqualifying fault. It specifies particular requirements regarding eye rim, lip and roof of mouth pigment. It also specifies double dew claws.

On the surface all these things seem very cosmetic. That is until you understand that black on the dog was taken by the French shepherds to be a sign of crossbreeding with herding dogs (which introduced behaviour traits they didnt want in a LGD) so these puppies were regularly culled/removed as they didnt function well at their job. Pigment was important as it reflected glare (particularly on snow - helping prevent snow blindness), prevented sunburn and also helped prevent deafness (given the link between lack of 'pigment' in the inner ear and deafness) which they instinctively could note as a correlation. Double dewclaws were also taken as a sign of 'breed purity' by the shepherds and another way to avoid the introduction of unwanted behaviour traits.

For these reasons I encourage people who may wonder about the so called 'superficial' specifications in a standard to first consider exactly WHY they were put there in the first place before dismissing them outright. There might be an actual reason for them being put there.

This!

It is very interesting to delve into the history of different Breeds and then read their standards and extended standards, it certainly helps to fit pieces of the puzzle together.