LizT Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 This forum has made me shake my head in disbelief. I can't believe the number of people on a pure-breed dog forum who condone the intentional or unintentional breeding of dogs on the limited register. I am not talking about dogs on main register, ... Excuse me, I am new to the Australian dog breeding/showing world. What does "main register" and "limited register" mean? If you have a quick to in the "Breeders Community" there is a recent thread asking just that very question? I'll 'Bump" it up for you. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I appreciate that there are some aspects of some breed standard that appear to be purely cosmetic and that would have little if any application to breeders of working dogs. But understanding the 'why' aspects of the specifications in breed standards can be very important and in some breeds, colour DOES matter. I just want to reiterate that I am in no way criticising the setting of breed standards, or breeding dogs for show. Both personally and professionally I am constantly amazed at the diversity and capabilities of our domesticated buddies. I was specifically responding to the suggestion that all dog breeding in Australia should fall under the eye of the ANKC. With reference to my own favourite breed, I think there are good reasons for having separate lines for work and show because they are breeding for different things. Breeders on DOL regularly report on the time, effort and care they put in to producing top-quality show pups, trying to get those same dogs to also have magnificent working instinct doesn't seem feasible for the breed as a whole (I'm sure there are some exceptional dogs out there tho!). Makes more sense to let the workers work and the show-ers show IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) I was specifically responding to the suggestion that all dog breeding in Australia should fall under the eye of the ANKC. With reference to my own favourite breed, I think there are good reasons for having separate lines for work and show because they are breeding for different things. Breeders on DOL regularly report on the time, effort and care they put in to producing top-quality show pups, trying to get those same dogs to also have magnificent working instinct doesn't seem feasible for the breed as a whole (I'm sure there are some exceptional dogs out there tho!). Makes more sense to let the workers work and the show-ers show IMHO. While not wanting to get into a debate on 'show versus work' I must admit that coming from a breed where the two are interchangable and in many ways inseparable (and in fact the BOB winner at this years World Dog Show was a working bitch from the French Pyrenees) I personally find it interesting and somewhat puzzling (and I will openly admit a little sad) that in some other breeds some people feel the two things can not coexist in the one dog. The real question is - is it because they can't? Or simply because people have made it that way through their thoughts and actions (which have then been perpetuated over time as 'truths')...... Edited February 28, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Quite a few of my preferred breeds have separated into show and working lines. And a few others that I am interested in are not recognised by ANKC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) I'm sure some breeders do try to have both Espinay. But sheepdogs are often required to do long intense days, and in a very harsh climate. It takes a special dog to have all the necessary attributes - and as much as I love 'em, and although they're good sporting dogs, I really doubt mine could cut it as real working dogs. I don't know enough about other working breeds to comment on them :) Also keep in mind the type of people that breed Australian working dogs. Not the first people you'd be expecting to be keen on dog shows ;) Edit: and I suspect the people that are trying to do both have show lines that they are getting herding titles on, not so much the other way around. Interested to hear if anyone knows of working kelpie lines that are being bred towards show conformation.... Edited February 28, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I'm sure some breeders do try to have both Espinay. But sheepdogs are often required to do long intense days, and in a very harsh climate. It takes a special dog to have all the necessary attributes - and as much as I love 'em I really doubt mine could cut it as real working dogs. I don't know enough about other working breeds to comment on them :) Also keep in mind the type of people that breed Australian working dogs. Not the first people you'd be expecting to be keen on dog shows ;) Ah yes, but some of the best Pyr breeders internationally that I know hardly ever attend a dog show themselves either ;) And Pyrs can work long shifts (24 hours a day) in 'intense' climates too........ (note - I was raised working on large sheep properties on the NSW/Qld border so do have some small understanding of the job of a working sheep dog ;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Wasn't suggesting for a second you didn't Espinay! I am just trying to reconcile in my own head how it would work to put both lines into the ANKC framework and still get everything that everyone wants out of the breed. I can't see it myself Also gave myself a chuckle imagining some of the farmers I've met having a go around the show ring in their flannies and shorts :p Edit: of course I have huge respect and admiration for all the other stripes of working dog out there, I just don't know enough about them to comment! Edited February 28, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Take a look at this photo - tell me which dog in the pic is the working kelpie and which one the show kelpie Pic is from here: http://www.suthensky...s.com/page5.asp Not all farmers wear flannies and shorts all the time....... Remember that the 'drag of the breed' exists in all breeds and what people are looking at IMO in many cases are the obvious extremes without looking at the 'happy medium' which is often closer to what a breed traditionally always was. Edited February 28, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Remember that the 'drag of the breed' exists in all breeds and what people are looking at IMO in many cases are the obvious extremes without looking at the 'happy medium' which is often closer to what a breed traditionally always was. I think part of it is that we're looking at quite a young breed too, so tradition isn't as strong as it is in many other breeds. I had a quick google around and only found Wingdari that identify themselves as producing both working and show excellence in the same dogs, the other breeders I found do explicitly identify themselves as one or the other. And people do want a lot out this breed - yard dogs, paddock dogs, sheep/goats/cattle etc. I think the diversity of objectives is a good thing, it's why we have breeds in the first place :) Not all farmers wear flannies and shorts all the time....... I was thinking of 2 specific people I know, who pretty much do... -- (from that pic of double gorgeousness, I'd *guess* the one on the left as the working dog as it looks a bit finer and longer in the muzzle. But I have hardly spent any time around show dogs) Edited February 28, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) REgarding diversity of roles - that can be accommodated too within a breed and many breeds already accommodate it. Pyrs for instance are used as farm guards, range guards, paddock flock guards - for sheep, goats, alpacas, poultry, sometimes cattle and horses and even ratites and for any range of locations from high mountain ranges to village farmlets (with many dogs traditionally having to adapt between these on a seasonal basis). As for farmers, I do find it funny sometimes that some are willing to go to great lengths to show their sheep, cattle or poultry etc but some havent even thought of showing their dogs :laugh: (but then I do know of others that do). I guess in a nutshell all I am really saying is don't confuse 'can't' with 'I don't want to' or other personal prejudices or preferences. Fair enough for someone to say they personally prefer and want only working dogs or show dogs etc because that is where their personal interest lies. But to say that this means it can't be done within a breed and done well is IMO is often buying into perpetuated personal viewpoints rather than any real statement of fact. We create these divisions by how we think. As always, JMHO ;) Edited February 28, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Yep, you're probably right. I think if you went to many working breeders and suggested moving more towards the ANKC standard they'd say 'why would I bother? he does the job' and that would be the end of it. It would take more people with a passion for both to really see what could come of it. And as with many other cases, the interpretation and preferences of the show ring seems to have pushed show lines towards a narrower range of morphologies than the standard actually calls for. The shorter, stockier solid-colour dogs dominate, despite the equal awesomeness of tan-pointed dogs :p edit: As for farmers, I do find it funny sometimes that some are willing to go to great lengths to show their sheep, cattle or poultry etc but some havent even thought of showing their dogs :laugh: (but then I do know of others that do). (I'm guessing their showing off their dogs is more in the form of sheep trials and started dog auctions) Edited February 28, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Just because it isthe 'fashion' doesnt mean that is the way it will always be and that is all anyone is breeding. There will always be those out there that quietly go about their business breeding dogs that are less extreme than either. Often these are the long term breeders that come to be admired and called upon as stalwarts in a breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I know of at least one DOLer attempting to represent for the tan points in the show ring :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I don't see the Kelpie division going anywhere soon. WKC Kelpies that are not ANKC registered (I only know of a few breeders that have dual registered Kelpies) cannot be ANKC registered, so show breeders can't really use working stock if they want to show their dogs. And working breeders are more interested in the working ability of the dog. While other breeds such as GSD have a big division as well (and multiple heated threads and debates :laugh: ) many working GSD are on main ANKC registration so it would be possible to use working dogs over show dogs and still show them, and are under the ANKC umbrella, but as their appearance and structure is often quite different, working line dogs would not do well in a show, and working breeders are more interested in the working ability of the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I don't see the Kelpie division going anywhere soon. WKC Kelpies that are not ANKC registered (I only know of a few breeders that have dual registered Kelpies) cannot be ANKC registered, so show breeders can't really use working stock if they want to show their dogs. And working breeders are more interested in the working ability of the dog. Breed registers have been opened before for the influx of new blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I don't see the Kelpie division going anywhere soon. WKC Kelpies that are not ANKC registered (I only know of a few breeders that have dual registered Kelpies) cannot be ANKC registered, so show breeders can't really use working stock if they want to show their dogs. And working breeders are more interested in the working ability of the dog. Breed registers have been opened before for the influx of new blood. For this to happen I would guess there would have to be a lot of people calling for it to happen, that the breed needs the influx of new blood for some important reason. I don't know if that is what/how the show Kelpie people view their breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 As you state, there ARE people breeding dual registered and if a breeder WANTS to they can breed for both work and structure. The only thing really in the way of doing so is how someone thinks.... not that it can't be done ;) Glass half empty (and that is just how it is) or glass half full (and I can have it all if I want) It is up to individuals to choose what they personally want. Though IMHO, I would prefer people to say this is what they personally want rather than say 'that is just how it is and how it will stay'. As always YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 As you state, there ARE people breeding dual registered and if a breeder WANTS to they can breed for both work and structure. The only thing really in the way of doing so is how someone thinks.... not that it can't be done ;) Glass half empty (and that is just how it is) or glass half full (and I can have it all if I want) It is up to individuals to choose what they personally want. Though IMHO, I would prefer people to say this is what they personally want rather than say 'that is just how it is and how it will stay'. As always YMMV. There would be a very limited number of dogs that are dual registered - not many to choose from for a breeding program if you want to keep dual registerability, certainly compared to the choice of bloodlines for show only or working only. To then test all the dogs and only choose those that have decent working ability and also do well in the show ring - would not leave you with many options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) But there are still options....;) Coming from a breed with a small genepool with few options I know there are still options ;) And where you start is never where you end up. As I said, I prefer to look and how things CAN be done rather than finding excuses why they can't. Edited February 28, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I guess the question tho is not so much can we or can't we, but why? There are so many beautiful dogs in both types that excel at what they were bred for, and the two groups are happy doing their own thing. If individual breeders are passionate about both working and showing they can make it happen, but I'm not convinced that a single register is necessary for the benefit of either the breed or the breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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