Desexing Contracts

[Weasels]

Weasels I thought all your dogs were desexed

My boy wouldn't know what to do with an in-season bitch if he fell on top of her :laugh:

[Steve]

I have an 11 year old desexed dog competing in agility? Certainly no hip problems here, and she's been desexed since she was 8 months old Just curious whats the go with the desexing association with joint problems being said? Not denying it, just curious :)

Male mammals need testosterone - think it through. If you took the gonads away from a male child what side effects would be expected? Old men have greater health issues as their testosterone levels drop - Some stats have placed male animal which are desexed before puberty at a 73% increase in HD.

Its a bit different for females and in my opinion they are better off if not used for breeding to be desexed as they can actually draw estrogen from places other than their ovaries and there is a risk of various health issues. The point Im trying to make is that if its my dog I should be given the facts for and against.i should be informed of possible consequences if I do or dont and when is the optimum time frame.As an owner I should be able to make my own informed decision which is suited to my style of living, my family and my dog.

Take a look at the links I posted earlier - the studies are there including a recent one which shows that bitches which are not desexed live much longer than those which do. I wouldnt allow a breder to take away my right to make the choice for my dog and I don't see why puppy buyers should be treated as idiots and potentially irresponsible in order for some breeders to "protect them "

The other issue for me is that if someone wants an entire dog they will simply tell lies - if you leave the decision open to allow the buyer to become educated ad make their own choice there is no reason for them to tell a breeder lies so you can then decide if they want to sell them a pup based on the truth and not just what they know you want to hear.

I to believe that owners should be informed of all potential health issues and outcomes but I do feel that there is an element of alarmist here.

Male mammals clearly don't need their gonads to live long healthy lives. Take the horse as an example. The vast majority of male horses are desexed at either weaning or six months of age, some later because they are quite unmanageable as entires and desexing quickly changes that. The gonads are not the only sourse of hormone production.

Yep but it shouldnt be something someone else decides for you or gives you no choice on. Get informed - look at all the pros and cons and decide what suits you and your dog best.

Im not saying dont desex Im saying full disclosure.

[Pup E Dog]

Desexing contracts will not stand up in court and anyone who thinks they can tell a consumer what to do with a product they have purchased is kidding themselves.

I can think of two desexing cases that have been to court, each time the breeder won.

Dogs are property and you cant dictate to someone after you sell them a dog as to what they can and cant do with it any more than you can tell someone if they change the colour of their car that you have sold them they have to give it back.

What did they win?

My pups used to go out on desexing contracts and I didn't have anyone go back on it for years. Then I did. Their reason "but we decided we want to let her have one litter of pups because it is better for her". They actually used a similar argument to what Steve has stated. One letter from my solicitor and the dog was desexed very quickly.

To prevent this from being a problem in the future I changed my contracts. From then if you wanted one of my pups the contract was written up as a lease until the pup was 7 months old, with two clauses.

The first being that, until the pup turned seven moths old, the person leasing the pup could present me with a desexing certificate and the ownership of the pup would automatically transfer to them and we would reimburse the new puppy owner for the cost of the desexing.

The second being that if no desexing certificate could be supplied by the time the pup turned seven moths old, the lease was over and the pup must be returned within seven days.

On the contract, we changed "purchase price" to "lease fee". Never had to have a pup returned.

[Romana]

Contents by paragraphs:

1. Early desexing

2. $$$ Refund to buyer for desexing - and why I like this idea

3. Showing of desexed dogs

4. The biggest problem with Australian puppy buyers

Wow! This is indeed a VERY busy forum! Thank you for all your many answers to my questions. I don't know how to handle the "multiquote" option here, but on page 2 Steve displayed some links in opposition to early desexing, which I found very worthwhile checking out. Thank you, Steve. Especially the claim that early desexing increases the risk of hip dysplaisia by 70% made me reconsider - though I would like to see some more proof for this claim. Hips and joints in general are about the greatest health problem there is in my chosen breed - the White Shepherd Dog - and as it seems in other large breeds, too.

Right underneath, on page 2, a lady breeder brought up the idea to offer $100 refund against proof of desexing, which I love and actually already did in the past, too. However, out of 4 puppy buyers who got that contract (that was our 2nd litter) only one claimed her $100 back. I don't know what happened to the others. Therefore, I guess, in a breed where a puppy usually costs about $1,000 and desexing of an adult costs in excess of $300, I will have to offer a higher incentive, such as a $300 refund.

I will most likely put this option into practice, with the extension that I will pay $300 back not only upon proof of desexing (within 16 months of age), but also, at the buyer's choice, as my contribution to hip & elbow X-ray scoring, which is about the same price (between $310 and $650 depending which vet you use). This is because I have no problem with supporting future breeding with my progeny - but I want to make sure it is done the right way. I am happy to give the buyer the option to EITHER keep the dog as a pet only, OR to breed responsibly and ethically which, to me, means that only perfectly healthy (i.e. thoroughly health-tested) and well looked after dogs are to be used in breeding programs.

On pages 3 and 4, several people mentioned that if a dog is desexed he/she cannot be shown in Australia ... this came as a surprise to me! Is that really so? Why should that matter? A desexed show-winner can still serve as a perfect reference for ancestors, siblings or progeny that are used in breeding programs, so why should there be a restriction to their showing capacity? However, I must admit that I am not familiar with dog showing in Australia. I used to show my White Shepherd Dog in Germany and all over Europe, but this is long ago. Sadly, my chosen breed is not accepted at Australian dog shows, so I do without showing here. My Australian showing experience is limited to cats - I also breed the beautiful Russian Cat, and in Australian cat breeders' circles, early desexing at the source (i.e. before selling a kiten) is common practice.

The reason why I got on this forum is that I really want to find safe and secure homes for my current seven White Shepherd puppies who are only 3 weeks old now! I care very much about them, and I do worry about their future lives.

I have heard horror stories of puppy farms and cruel backyard breeders, and my experience from following the life stories of our previous 2 litters here in Australia was not best either ...

Tomorrow morning I'll take off with my little kid (I'm a single mother) at 5 am in the morning to drive 1,600km through the Australian Outback over the weekend in 38 degrees expected heat, with no working air-conditioning in our 25 year old car, in order to pick up a now 3 year old White Shepherd Dog boy from an RSPCA animal shelter far out in NSW. He was from our very first litter and, two days ago, he was surrendered there undesexed by my previous puppy buyers! My only good luck is that I had him microchipped before I sold him three years ago. Only so, he could find his way back home to me! Already then, 3 years ago, those people signed a paper in which they promised that they will have him desexed and not pass him on before offering him back to me first, and I thought I could trust them because they both were doctors and paid all the money upfront with no hesitation and the way they talked felt warm and loving, but they obviously did not care anyway. That's why I have so little trust in people signing contracts here in Australia. However, I believe, a $300 refund offer could have some real impact and give my pups some tangible security - at least, I hope so!

Thanks, once again, for your many contributions. If you miss me here in the next two days, well, you know where I am. I only hope our car won't break down. I will have heaps of water on board!

Edited February 24, 2012 by Romana

[Romana]

... with two clauses.

The first being that, until the pup turned seven moths old, the person leasing the pup could present me with a desexing certificate and the ownership of the pup would automatically transfer to them and we would reimburse the new puppy owner for the cost of the desexing.

The second being that if no desexing certificate could be supplied by the time the pup turned seven moths old, the lease was over and the pup must be returned within seven days.

On the contract, we changed "purchase price" to "lease fee". Never had to have a pup returned.

Wow, Pup E Dog, this is an excellent idea! I might do that, too. However, I would put the age up to 12-18 months, at least for my (large) breed, because it is not possible to assess the dog's value for a breeding program (such as do reliable hip scores) prior to that, and in our breed we have an extremely narrow gene pool in Australia, so future breeders are usually encouraged not pushed back, but we definitely only want the right people with the right dogs to join the breeding programs.

Is there a chance to get hold of a template of your "Lease Agreement", Pup E Dog? You are very welcome to send it to me by private mail, if you are willing to help and possibly want to discuss the issue even further on a private basis.

[LizT]

Good Luck with your mercy mission Romana. :) Are you talking about Swiss White Shepherd (recognised Registered breed here in Australia) or White German Shepherd (not recognised by GSD registry here in Australia) ? Both of which I love and they do have a common ancestory but have been bred along different lines for some time now, as you would possibly be aware.

With reference to showing desexed dogs there are now special classes for neuters who can obtain a neuter title but this has been slow coming and not really well received up til now.

I to think a neuter is a good example of it's sire and dam, but do need to have a class of it's own as do horses, separate for Satllions, Mares and Geldings.

[LizT]

I have an 11 year old desexed dog competing in agility? Certainly no hip problems here, and she's been desexed since she was 8 months old Just curious whats the go with the desexing association with joint problems being said? Not denying it, just curious :)

Male mammals need testosterone - think it through. If you took the gonads away from a male child what side effects would be expected? Old men have greater health issues as their testosterone levels drop - Some stats have placed male animal which are desexed before puberty at a 73% increase in HD.

Its a bit different for females and in my opinion they are better off if not used for breeding to be desexed as they can actually draw estrogen from places other than their ovaries and there is a risk of various health issues. The point Im trying to make is that if its my dog I should be given the facts for and against.i should be informed of possible consequences if I do or dont and when is the optimum time frame.As an owner I should be able to make my own informed decision which is suited to my style of living, my family and my dog.

Take a look at the links I posted earlier - the studies are there including a recent one which shows that bitches which are not desexed live much longer than those which do. I wouldnt allow a breder to take away my right to make the choice for my dog and I don't see why puppy buyers should be treated as idiots and potentially irresponsible in order for some breeders to "protect them "

The other issue for me is that if someone wants an entire dog they will simply tell lies - if you leave the decision open to allow the buyer to become educated ad make their own choice there is no reason for them to tell a breeder lies so you can then decide if they want to sell them a pup based on the truth and not just what they know you want to hear.

I to believe that owners should be informed of all potential health issues and outcomes but I do feel that there is an element of alarmist here.

Male mammals clearly don't need their gonads to live long healthy lives. Take the horse as an example. The vast majority of male horses are desexed at either weaning or six months of age, some later because they are quite unmanageable as entires and desexing quickly changes that. The gonads are not the only sourse of hormone production.

Yep but it shouldnt be something someone else decides for you or gives you no choice on. Get informed - look at all the pros and cons and decide what suits you and your dog best.

Im not saying dont desex Im saying full disclosure.

"Get informed"...yes, and herein lies the problems. We are only as informed as the information we collect from various sources. The more we seek to enlighten ourselves the more conflicting the information becomes from the various professionals and experts we seek to learn from and whose opinions we depend so much on. We learn something, go with it, only to be told by the next opinion that we have missed something and are not fully informed, or that we don't have the complete picture of any given subject. Or that opinions have now varied on what we held to be true, until it comes back into vogue (or popular thinking) again, that is.

It's enough to give most people a big headache some days. ;)

[Romana]

With reference to showing desexed dogs there are now special classes for neuters who can obtain a neuter title but this has been slow coming and not really well received up til now.

I to think a neuter is a good example of it's sire and dam, but do need to have a class of it's own as do horses, separate for Satllions, Mares and Geldings.

Liz, I am indeed surprised that neutered dogs can't be shown just as the entire ones in Australia! Sorry to be so little informed.

In Europe, it doesn't make any real difference. Okay, there are two separate classes/groups, but both classes are about equally strong and well attended, and every breeder will check the results of the neutered dogs and their pedigrees just as cautiously as the results of the active breeders.

As to my breed, the White Shepherd Dog, I believe there is a huge confusion and irritation going on inside the ANKCA. I haven't followed the details of the decade-long discussion, but I know that my (one) breeding bitch, who was bred here (though originating from mainly European and American ancestors) would immediately get FCI papers as a purebred "Berger Suisse Blanc" (White Swiss Shepherd) if I took her to Europe, and if I would then bring her back to Autralia, she would be the 5th registered dog of this only recently recognised breed in this country. However, I am certainly not going to expose my dog to 40 hours flight and a month in quarantine just to get such a stupid piece of paper! I rather hope the ANKCA will some day recognise this breed just as every other country outside of Australia did, irrespective of where they were born.

Breed info for the less informed: The Berger Suisse Blanc (White Swiss Shepherd) is an internationally recognised breed which is distinct from the German Shepherd, although it to 100% originates from the (old-style) German Shepherd and never was mixed with another breed. The Australian breeders of the "White Shepherd" are, however, not allowed to use the attribute "Swiss", but they are forced to classify their dogs as "German Shepherds" while all German Shepherd Clubs all over the world consider the white colour as a disqualification and an undesirable feature in any German shepherd; in fact, for decades, German Shepherd breeders used to cull any puppy that was born white! For 50 or 60 years, rescuers all over the world would collect those unwanted WHITE puppies and pure-breed them in White only, while clearly disregarding any stupid new ideas such as that a real German Shepherd should have a short curved back! They kept breeding the old "healthy" style of dogs. Switzerland was the first country that recognised the White Shepherds as an independent breed still in the last century. Sadly, the Australian dog breeder's governing body has not followed the example of the Swiss and the international FCI bodies. I - and all the other White Shepherd breeders in Australia - still hope they will change their opinion, so we can claim equal right to our beautiful dogs as everyone else does, too. Currently, only imported White Shepherds with FCI papers are admitted to Australian dog shows. As far as I know, 4 (four) of them have been imported to Australia already, but noone knows whether they are just pets ... one of them, as I know, has been offered as a stud, but can't find a matching female counterpart ... and the whole importing procedure costs about $ 16,000 per dog, not to mention the dog's suffering during transport and in the quarantine cage. And you can really believe me: The Aussie-bred White Shepherds do not look or behave in any way different from the German, US or Swiss-bred ones!

[Shaar]

I think we have one show with neuter class here a year... Not worth keeping my desexed poodle in full coat for one show a year.

[Salukifan]

For those determined not to release puppies from their kennels entire, there is already a viable option to full desexing... vasectomy and tubal ligation.

I'm certainly glad Dodger's sire wasn't sold desexed. He started life as a pet, the owner was encouraged some months down the track by his breeder to show him and now that dog is a Grand Champion and a prolific sire.

If you think you can pick the show quality pups with 100% certainty at 8 weeks then half your luck, but I've seen a lot of breeders kick themselves about pups in pet homes being "the ones that got away" in terms of their quality and loss to breeding programs.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Telida Whippets

[Sandra777]

If you think you can pick the show quality pups with 100% certainty at 8 weeks then half your luck, but I've seen a lot of breeders kick themselves about pups in pet homes being "the ones that got away" in terms of their quality and loss to breeding programs.

x2!!!!!

[Salukifan]

If you think you can pick the show quality pups with 100% certainty at 8 weeks then half your luck, but I've seen a lot of breeders kick themselves about pups in pet homes being "the ones that got away" in terms of their quality and loss to breeding programs.

x2!!!!!

Just to add: The "pet owner" Dodger's sire was sold to a is now a registered breeder. That's how you grow new exhibitors folks. :)

[Pup E Dog]

I will PM you Romana.

[~Shepherd~]

With reference to showing desexed dogs there are now special classes for neuters who can obtain a neuter title but this has been slow coming and not really well received up til now.

I to think a neuter is a good example of it's sire and dam, but do need to have a class of it's own as do horses, separate for Satllions, Mares and Geldings.

Liz, I am indeed surprised that neutered dogs can't be shown just as the entire ones in Australia! Sorry to be so little informed.

In Europe, it doesn't make any real difference. Okay, there are two separate classes/groups, but both classes are about equally strong and well attended, and every breeder will check the results of the neutered dogs and their pedigrees just as cautiously as the results of the active breeders.

As to my breed, the White Shepherd Dog, I believe there is a huge confusion and irritation going on inside the ANKCA. I haven't followed the details of the decade-long discussion, but I know that my (one) breeding bitch, who was bred here (though originating from mainly European and American ancestors) would immediately get FCI papers as a purebred "Berger Suisse Blanc" (White Swiss Shepherd) if I took her to Europe, and if I would then bring her back to Autralia, she would be the 5th registered dog of this only recently recognised breed in this country. However, I am certainly not going to expose my dog to 40 hours flight and a month in quarantine just to get such a stupid piece of paper! I rather hope the ANKCA will some day recognise this breed just as every other country outside of Australia did, irrespective of where they were born.

Breed info for the less informed: The Berger Suisse Blanc (White Swiss Shepherd) is an internationally recognised breed which is distinct from the German Shepherd, although it to 100% originates from the (old-style) German Shepherd and never was mixed with another breed. The Australian breeders of the "White Shepherd" are, however, not allowed to use the attribute "Swiss", but they are forced to classify their dogs as "German Shepherds" while all German Shepherd Clubs all over the world consider the white colour as a disqualification and an undesirable feature in any German shepherd; in fact, for decades, German Shepherd breeders used to cull any puppy that was born white! For 50 or 60 years, rescuers all over the world would collect those unwanted WHITE puppies and pure-breed them in White only, while clearly disregarding any stupid new ideas such as that a real German Shepherd should have a short curved back! They kept breeding the old "healthy" style of dogs. Switzerland was the first country that recognised the White Shepherds as an independent breed still in the last century. Sadly, the Australian dog breeder's governing body has not followed the example of the Swiss and the international FCI bodies. I - and all the other White Shepherd breeders in Australia - still hope they will change their opinion, so we can claim equal right to our beautiful dogs as everyone else does, too. Currently, only imported White Shepherds with FCI papers are admitted to Australian dog shows. As far as I know, 4 (four) of them have been imported to Australia already, but noone knows whether they are just pets ... one of them, as I know, has been offered as a stud, but can't find a matching female counterpart ... and the whole importing procedure costs about $ 16,000 per dog, not to mention the dog's suffering during transport and in the quarantine cage. And you can really believe me: The Aussie-bred White Shepherds do not look or behave in any way different from the German, US or Swiss-bred ones!

You have the opportuntiy of showing your dogs twice per year up against many other Whities with the WSSDCA (non ANKC as you know). Bred to the same standard as the imported WSS. We really enjoyed the Nationals this year and people came from all over Aus, we also had the pleasure of Angelsun as one of the judges. One of your lovely boys entered and did quite well.

[Romana]

You have the opportuntiy of showing your dogs twice per year up against many other Whities with the WSSDCA (non ANKC as you know). Bred to the same standard as the imported WSS.

I know, I am a member of this club One day, we'll travel to the show, too, it's on our agenda! And as far as I know they doesn't make any difference for that show whether a dog is desexed or entire, it's just beauty, health and temperament that counts.

[~Shepherd~]

You have the opportuntiy of showing your dogs twice per year up against many other Whities with the WSSDCA (non ANKC as you know). Bred to the same standard as the imported WSS.

I know, I am a member of this club One day, we'll travel to the show, too, it's on our agenda! And as far as I know they doesn't make any difference for that show whether a dog is desexed or entire, it's just beauty, health and temperament that counts.

there are separate classes not mixed, classes are run the same as ANKC, but more options. Only opportuntiy really to compare with what you are producing unfortunately. Someone mentioned German Shepherds. Yes genetically, but bred to the standard of the White Swiss Shepherd. White German Shepherds look like German Shepherds, White "Swiss Shepherds" look like White Swiss Shepherds bred under ANKC or WSSDCA. So there are actually 3 classifications. Australian bred White Shepherd bred to WSS standard registered with the WSSDCA non ANKC if bred in AUS (if you send overeseas it is recognised), White German Shepherd bred under ANKC German Shepherd standard (can go on ANKC limited register) and a ANKC registered WSS (only allowed if from imported bloodlines).

[m-sass]

Desexing contracts IMHO are a waste of time, it only reinforces what honest people would do anyway. If someone really wanted to buy a pup for BYB breeding etc, they will get around a desexing contract easily, as an example the breeder would need to know where the person in default of the contract lives, so a solicitor sends a default letter that comes back "not at this address" then what?. Someone intent on buying a pup to do the wrong thing by a breeder and the pup breeding wise they could do a number of things to fool the breeder, false names, addresses etc, once they get hold of an entire pup, they can easily disappear into thin air. Desexing contracts are not going to stop someone buying a pup specifically for imoral breeding practices as a guaranteed safeguard and I think it's a bit naive to believe a desexing contract is the ultimate solution.

[Steve]

Desexing contracts IMHO are a waste of time, it only reinforces what honest people would do anyway. If someone really wanted to buy a pup for BYB breeding etc, they will get around a desexing contract easily, as an example the breeder would need to know where the person in default of the contract lives, so a solicitor sends a default letter that comes back "not at this address" then what?. Someone intent on buying a pup to do the wrong thing by a breeder and the pup breeding wise they could do a number of things to fool the breeder, false names, addresses etc, once they get hold of an entire pup, they can easily disappear into thin air. Desexing contracts are not going to stop someone buying a pup specifically for imoral breeding practices as a guaranteed safeguard and I think it's a bit naive to believe a desexing contract is the ultimate solution.

What about the dog who jumped the back fence before the owner could get to the vet to desex - nil intent - shit happens.

[Topoftheheap]

This forum has made me shake my head in disbelief. I can't believe the number of people on a pure-breed dog forum who condone the intentional or unintentional breeding of dogs on the limited register.

I am not talking about dogs on main register, and if you won't to start showing or breeding you need to buy a dog on main anyway. Nobody sells a dog on main and expects you to desex it.

No, the issue is with dogs on limited being sold and desexed.

Now, the breeder has decided that the dog for whatever reason is not to be sold on main. If they believed it was show/breeding quality they would try and sell it as a main register puppy and get more money for it in the process.

The reason a dog is sold on limited may not be apparent to you. It may not be a major structural fault, nor a fault that's obvious to the eye. Maybe the lines have thrown pups with problems, or maybe DNA tests have revealed a that the pup or its father/mother/sister etc are carriers of something, or maybe its father/mother/sister has HD or a patella, or PRA,etc,etc. There could be a million reasons, that are unknown to you.

The dog is sold on the condition that it is not bred or shown from.

Now if people were honest and ethical I suppose there would be no need for desexing clauses, but not everyone is. And the contract is there to protect the breed, and dogs in general.

How else are we to eradicate the many hereditary problems that are out there if we do not stop those affected or are carriers being bred from? How do we stop the social problem of unwanted dogs ending up in shelters? How do we stop our purebred dogs becoming the parents of future breeds of designer dogs, and cross-breeds if we do not stop them being bred from?

And on the legal side, a contract is a contract. But, if something is sold on a contract, then it is sold on a contract. If you don't like it don't be deceptive and buy it, because you are just scamming the seller, no matter what your views towards desexing are. I personally believe in compulsory desexing for all dogs sold that are not sold on main registration, and that doesn't just include dogs on limited, I mean designer dogs, cross-breeds, puppy farm owned dogs, etc. I see it as the only way to stop the overpopulation of dogs in this country and others. Im not sure about the info posted about early desexing, I just can't see how it could be true, some of the facts beggar belief, especially those about structural changes due to early operation. Its just my opinion, and Im sure there are a hundred million pages that could be linked to challenge my belief, but the internet is the internet after all, and all information needs to be carefully assessed before deciding on. I also believe that the more information out there only confuses the general public more.

[Weasels]

I personally believe in compulsory desexing for all dogs sold that are not sold on main registration, and that doesn't just include dogs on limited, I mean designer dogs, cross-breeds, puppy farm owned dogs, etc. I see it as the only way to stop the overpopulation of dogs in this country and others..

Wow. This statement is basically saying that the ANKC should be the ultimate arbiters of all dog-kind. That would be horrific, especially given they aren't the only register (working registers for example), and even worse, would mean the eradication of Koolies

E: there are plenty of reasons for breeding dogs that have nothing to do with conforming to a show standard. Horses for courses.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Weasels