Desexing Contracts

[Steve]

I look at it this way - I chose to sell you a puppy based on many things and one of them is that you will desex.

If you say you won't, then you won't get a puppy.

No different to voiding a warranty or forfeiting on a loan repayment - terms and conditions just like a puppy.

Actually its not. If the person were paying the pup off and the pup was security that's entirely different to someone owning something and being made to do with it something the previous owner said they had to.

The court only sees it in dollar amounts not emotion. Until my car is paid in full its owned by the finance company but once I make the final payment I get to own it and do what I want.

[rusty&biscuit]

This is a really interesting read! When I get into breeding schipperkes in the year to come, being a rare breed in Australia, I'd like to preserve the quality of the breed we hav in Australia. Therefore, I would have the 'not-so-good' quality pups desexed, however if someone was wanting a first show dog, or pehaps set up agility lines, I'd be happy to oblidge. It's just so hard to trust people these days I wouldn't feel right sending an entire dog to a pet owner. Their dog might be 'cute', so needs to be bred to another 'cute' dog, because the kids want to experience pups. That's what mice are for if you want to experienc cute babies ;)

But hey, maybe that's just me...I just don't like seeing so many dogs in shelters being PTS every week and I certainly don't want to contribute to the problem when I know I can avoid it.

Good luck with your search for puppy, they seem nice dogs :D Please keep us updated :)

[Steve]

Depends on how you look at it - do you control what happens to your dogs on the off chance someone will breed with them when they said they wouldn't or do you put a higher priority on the welfare of the dog and allow the owner to make their own choice/? No right or wrong answer as so much depends on the breed. Id rather give my puppies the chance at better health over trying to do to a puppy buyer something I wouldn't tolerate for myself.

[dasha]

I think it is interesting the whole idea of a contract.

I can see why some breeders would do it but I also feel that at some point when screening the potential purchasers, you need to be happy with who you chose and actually place a little trust in your choice. I feel that breeders that say everything will be/must be desexed no matter give the impression that they are the best dog people ever and no-one could possible be as good a home as them and the potential purchasers are merely an outlet to offload their product.

Personally I would not buy a dog that came with a contract. If I had friends that were looking for a dog, I would not recommend then to go to anyone that sells dogs on a contract.

To be honest I think that breeders that have the high and mighty attitude actually perpetuate the problem they are so afraid of as it pushes people to buy from someone that will let them own the dog and make decisions about their own dog.

I feel that once I have bought it, it is mine and I should be the one to make decisions about if/when it gets desexed.

I don't put any contracts on the puppies I sold but all of them have gone to good homes and are doing well, and if these dogs are doing so well, good on the person for wanting to breed it on and create more generations of good dogs.

[weasel]

Thanks for your opinions everyone who posted.

I may not agree with all of them but its great to hear what everyone thinks about the topic and I'll definitely keep it in mind and discuss the subject with the breeder before I buy my dog so know ones toes get trodden on :-)

Who would of thought the subject would be so complex!!

[Steve]

I recommend they desex them if they are pets at around 12 months and so far they all have - however a couple over the years that desexed and appeared to be great owners threw them away.

Just because an owner decides to desex doesn't make em responsible any more than not desexing makes them irresponsible

[TheCheekyMonster]

A desexing contract is usually put in place to stop indescriminate breeding with the dog :) It is usually done by breeders who are not willing to desex at 7-8 weeks prior to the pup going to their new home.

Most breeders would be willing to "negotiate" if you had a legitimate reason for wanting to keep a dog entire - ie giving the dog longer to mature.

Personally though even my show dogs get desexed once they have retired :)

I hear what your saying but it concerns me that no breeder will sell me a pup if i admit that id prefer a male and im anti desexing unless its required

for health reasons or temperament issues. This is an issue because there are only several breeders of this breed in Australia...

I had similar views to you till I had done research and was told otherwise that desexing unless being a working dog does the dog no injustice...

In saying that I bought a show dog, so I get best of both world, in getting a show dog I am dedicated to becoming as educated i can in showing and taking classes... I was not going to get a show dog unless I was interested in showing.

[Steve]

Gets the breeder off the hook anyway I guess with such a high incidence of HD and joint problems in male dogs which are desexed young they cant blame the breeder - unless of course they felt the breeder gave them no choice.

[Janba]

I believe that only registered ethical breeders should be allowed to obtain an undesexed dog.

If entire pups are only sold to registered breeders where does the next generation of breeders and showers come from? ANKC registered dogs are already in trouble number wise and attitudes like this just put another nail in the coffin.

ETA How do you decide who is ethical and what ethical is?

Edited February 23, 2012 by Janba

[wuffles]

Also how about dog sports where the scientific consensus is that early desexing is detrimental to their structure?

[Steve]

The question has to become - what is best for the dog.Some breeders will believe its better for the dog to be at risk of health issues created by desexing than to be at risk of having a litter. The assumption is the pup has been bred with the betterment of the breed in mind - should the dog carry conditions which make the "betterment of the breed after it is born a priority over its health?

Should we put the health risks for dog we bred a lesser priority than the greater good of ensuring there are no unwanted litters. Each of us have to ask these things but at the end of the day I'm voting for informing buyers of the truth - pros and cons and allowing them to make the decisions which are best for them and their dogs just as I expect to be able to do with my own dogs.

[rusty&biscuit]

I have an 11 year old desexed dog competing in agility? Certainly no hip problems here, and she's been desexed since she was 8 months old Just curious whats the go with the desexing association with joint problems being said? Not denying it, just curious :)

[BJean]

I will have my current and future puppies desexed before I sell them, i.e. at an age of 10-12 weeks or "as soon as the balls drop".

Vets who say you must wait longer are following an antiquated school and have obviously missed out on bringing their educational standard up to date. Desexing contracts usually prove useless, as going to court for such a cause will cost ten or twenty time more than the puppy price and hardly anyone will go to court - but many will be very angry. Out of 13 puppies that I have sold with such contracts, I can prove that at least 4 contracts were broken. I recently had to deal with 2 buyers of second-generation puppies with severe joint problems whose mother was never hip-scored and was never meant for breeding, and was obviously mated to some neighbour dog who happened to look like the same breed. One of the puppies was surrendered to an animal shelter, because the "breeder" wouldn't take the sick puppy back but instead referred to the grandmother's breeder (me) as proof that the puppies had a 'perfectly healthy pedigree' background; the other puppy is undergoing expensive treatment. As a breeder, you can't rely on contracts, and you can't rely on the buyer's honesty, ethics or even common sense, and if your puppy buyers do the wrong thing it reflects back to you and can forever damage your good reputation. For the sake of the future generations of our dogs, please make sure that only suitable dogs are bred with by suitable people, and have all other pups desexed right at the source of origin!

Desexing will not damage the dog in any way; early desexing is safe and common nowadays, and much cheaper if organised by the breeder at an early age than later; and desexing has heaps of benefits not only for the dog, but most importantly also for the owner. I believe that only registered ethical breeders should be allowed to obtain an undesexed dog. This has become common practice in the Australian cat breeding world already, and I hope that the dog breeding world will follow.

wow so misinformed

ah the ye olde days ...

when animal welfare was animal welfare

and not a social campaign.

[Jumabaar]

I believe that only registered ethical breeders should be allowed to obtain an undesexed dog.

If entire pups are only sold to registered breeders where does the next generation of breeders and showers come from? ANKC registered dogs are already in trouble number wise and attitudes like this just put another nail in the coffin.

ETA How do you decide who is ethical and what ethical is?

It took me two years to decide to become a breeder and apply for my prefix. As a 'pet owner' prior to that I was able to keep my bitch from mating any dog with testicles that walked down the street!!

Why cant someone with no intention of breeding make the decision not to alter their dog. Or alter it at a time of their choosing- both after consultation with the breeder with respect to the risks in their lines of dogs as well as a well informed vet.

I am not sure what the difference between an ethical pet owner making an informed choice and an ethical breeder making an informed choice??? Many ethical breeders also think of themselves as ethical pet owners!!

[Shaar]

So by your standards Romana I should not be allowed to show a dog because I don't breed?

Not everyone wants to breed, I just enjoy showing and need an entire dog to do so.

I could have made a fortune off one of my main registered poodles... However I didn't, I had him desexed at 12 months when I found out I had another entire male arriving. I told the breeder I wouldn't breed him and I didn't.

I know the designer dog trend is at a peak right now but is there really a need for breeders to be so distrustful of potential buyers... It's no wonder many zip down to the local pet store to buy one instead.

Out of a friends last litter all pups bar one were limit registered and sold with no desexing contract, just a verbal agreement not to breed.

All of those pups ended up being desexed at the owners discretion.

If you don't trust the buyer not to breed what are you doing selling a pup to them anyway?

[Steve]

I have an 11 year old desexed dog competing in agility? Certainly no hip problems here, and she's been desexed since she was 8 months old Just curious whats the go with the desexing association with joint problems being said? Not denying it, just curious :)

Male mammals need testosterone - think it through. If you took the gonads away from a male child what side effects would be expected? Old men have greater health issues as their testosterone levels drop - Some stats have placed male animal which are desexed before puberty at a 73% increase in HD.

Its a bit different for females and in my opinion they are better off if not used for breeding to be desexed as they can actually draw estrogen from places other than their ovaries and there is a risk of various health issues. The point Im trying to make is that if its my dog I should be given the facts for and against.i should be informed of possible consequences if I do or dont and when is the optimum time frame.As an owner I should be able to make my own informed decision which is suited to my style of living, my family and my dog.

Take a look at the links I posted earlier - the studies are there including a recent one which shows that bitches which are not desexed live much longer than those which do. I wouldnt allow a breder to take away my right to make the choice for my dog and I don't see why puppy buyers should be treated as idiots and potentially irresponsible in order for some breeders to "protect them "

The other issue for me is that if someone wants an entire dog they will simply tell lies - if you leave the decision open to allow the buyer to become educated ad make their own choice there is no reason for them to tell a breeder lies so you can then decide if they want to sell them a pup based on the truth and not just what they know you want to hear.

[experiencedfun]

Weasels I thought all your dogs were desexed

[LizT]

I think it is interesting the whole idea of a contract.

I can see why some breeders would do it but I also feel that at some point when screening the potential purchasers, you need to be happy with who you chose and actually place a little trust in your choice. I feel that breeders that say everything will be/must be desexed no matter give the impression that they are the best dog people ever and no-one could possible be as good a home as them and the potential purchasers are merely an outlet to offload their product.

Personally I would not buy a dog that came with a contract. If I had friends that were looking for a dog, I would not recommend then to go to anyone that sells dogs on a contract.

To be honest I think that breeders that have the high and mighty attitude actually perpetuate the problem they are so afraid of as it pushes people to buy from someone that will let them own the dog and make decisions about their own dog.

I feel that once I have bought it, it is mine and I should be the one to make decisions about if/when it gets desexed.

I don't put any contracts on the puppies I sold but all of them have gone to good homes and are doing well, and if these dogs are doing so well, good on the person for wanting to breed it on and create more generations of good dogs.

I take it from your Avatar that you breed Kelpies. A working breed that is not subject to the overuse and abuse of Pet Shop Breeders and Puppy Farmers, nor is it a breed likely to become the next combination in the Designer Dog craze.

I don't think your breed is going to attract anyone thinking of the easy money they will be making $$$$$

These are some of the considerations that need to be taken into account and contribute towards the feeeling of needing or not needing a contract. However, the contract is not the foundation on which the decision of whom to sell a puppy to is based on. That decision is made during the "interview" process when one finds out What the purpose of the puppy is? and wha kind of home is it going to. If it is purely for a pet, then the owner has more than likely already planned to desex the puppy in the future.

When I was asked if I would put a puppy I was selling as a pet onto Main Register so the owner could breed a litter, I declined and explained that this was a nice puppy, but one I had rejected to keep on and breed, choosing a sibling instead. If I was to sell a puppy for breeding purposes on Main Register it needed to be at least as good as the one I had kept.

I was flamed in a thread by many DOLers who said I should not go ahead with the sale of the puppy to this woman, she would go ahead and BYB it etc. etc. But I went ahead with the sale, as I did not want to disappoint this very nice lady who was smitten with her pup. She did not let me down and the puppy was desexed at 6 months. Sometimes you have to trust people, for the sake of your sanity, even with the risk that they will let you down, as enevitably will sometimes happen. :)

[LizT]

I have an 11 year old desexed dog competing in agility? Certainly no hip problems here, and she's been desexed since she was 8 months old Just curious whats the go with the desexing association with joint problems being said? Not denying it, just curious :)

Male mammals need testosterone - think it through. If you took the gonads away from a male child what side effects would be expected? Old men have greater health issues as their testosterone levels drop - Some stats have placed male animal which are desexed before puberty at a 73% increase in HD.

Its a bit different for females and in my opinion they are better off if not used for breeding to be desexed as they can actually draw estrogen from places other than their ovaries and there is a risk of various health issues. The point Im trying to make is that if its my dog I should be given the facts for and against.i should be informed of possible consequences if I do or dont and when is the optimum time frame.As an owner I should be able to make my own informed decision which is suited to my style of living, my family and my dog.

Take a look at the links I posted earlier - the studies are there including a recent one which shows that bitches which are not desexed live much longer than those which do. I wouldnt allow a breder to take away my right to make the choice for my dog and I don't see why puppy buyers should be treated as idiots and potentially irresponsible in order for some breeders to "protect them "

The other issue for me is that if someone wants an entire dog they will simply tell lies - if you leave the decision open to allow the buyer to become educated ad make their own choice there is no reason for them to tell a breeder lies so you can then decide if they want to sell them a pup based on the truth and not just what they know you want to hear.

I to believe that owners should be informed of all potential health issues and outcomes but I do feel that there is an element of alarmist here.

Male mammals clearly don't need their gonads to live long healthy lives. Take the horse as an example. The vast majority of male horses are desexed at either weaning or six months of age, some later because they are quite unmanageable as entires and desexing quickly changes that. The gonads are not the only sourse of hormone production.

[rusty&biscuit]

I have an 11 year old desexed dog competing in agility? Certainly no hip problems here, and she's been desexed since she was 8 months old Just curious whats the go with the desexing association with joint problems being said? Not denying it, just curious :)

Male mammals need testosterone - think it through. If you took the gonads away from a male child what side effects would be expected? Old men have greater health issues as their testosterone levels drop - Some stats have placed male animal which are desexed before puberty at a 73% increase in HD.

Its a bit different for females and in my opinion they are better off if not used for breeding to be desexed as they can actually draw estrogen from places other than their ovaries and there is a risk of various health issues. The point Im trying to make is that if its my dog I should be given the facts for and against.i should be informed of possible consequences if I do or dont and when is the optimum time frame.As an owner I should be able to make my own informed decision which is suited to my style of living, my family and my dog.

Take a look at the links I posted earlier - the studies are there including a recent one which shows that bitches which are not desexed live much longer than those which do. I wouldnt allow a breder to take away my right to make the choice for my dog and I don't see why puppy buyers should be treated as idiots and potentially irresponsible in order for some breeders to "protect them "

The other issue for me is that if someone wants an entire dog they will simply tell lies - if you leave the decision open to allow the buyer to become educated ad make their own choice there is no reason for them to tell a breeder lies so you can then decide if they want to sell them a pup based on the truth and not just what they know you want to hear.

Thank you for this information, very helpful. I have an entire dog who (strangely) loves to show, but i have been thinking on and off of getting him desexed due to his major problem in agility which is - peeing in the ring, no matter how much I walk him. So I'll definately have a read of the links :) I also have another entire male who is succssful in the show ring but doesn't have any peeing issues :laugh: