BJean Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) You are right limited register does not mean that the dog is not of show/breed potential, however, for whatever reason the breeder does not want you to show/breed and as it is THERE dogs you are buying, and have years of experience with, what gives you the right to go in and change that. And no one wants a dog they have sold to you as a limited dog going and being bred, it affects thier name and thier lines in the following ways: Which was someone else's beforehand. And now the dog is owned by a new home. When it come to rights we can go the converse and say what gives you the right to tell a puppy owner to take a course of action that will affect the final outcome of their dog. BUT the pros and cons of both sides have been repeated many times over, and in actuality one side can't claim 'right' over the other, afterall at the end of the day it is mere breeder preference of what they think is best for the puppies they breed. However, there is no need to bring personal preference (the above) and back it up by untruths: IE: That a accidental or cross bred litter impacts the lineage of a prefix You breed your dog, you don't know why the breeder has not put it into the show ring, or want it bred from but you decide to anyway. You then use the dogs prefix in selling the pups, because after all that is the mothers name on the limited papers, and you get more money if you pass them off as purebreed. After all, you did not pay the money that would of secured you a purebreed dog, you paid the LIMITED price, but hey, you paid your money and went to the trouble of getting a pure breed. Then it gets around that the breeder is selling puppies that are not up to standard and then people are breeding from them. The show world is very small, everyone knows pretty much everyone, it doesn't take long to get around. And I didn't say it affected the main reg pool - I SAID IT AFFECTED THE BREED AS A WHOLE. And it does. Breeding dogs that are not deemed quality enough to put onto main is breeding inferior dogs, and I don't care what way you put it. If you decide to breed with a dog of another breed, or an accident with the neighbourhood dog occurs you are then adding to the cross-breed population. I really think dog ownership in Australia is a lot more complex than you purport and I would not be relying on the insulation of pedigreed anything in Australia's oppressive legislative environment. regarding affecting the breed as a whole ... it might just be that desexing all the pedigree puppies effects the long term outcome of the breed as a whole. From morphology to differences in cause of death etc Secondly, I know that anthromorphising is the buzz word at the moment, but that is not what I am doing at all. Desexing has clear health benefits, as you point out for females because as you say pyro is scary, so is uterine infections, etc,etc, and in males so is prostate cancer! The emotional issues I was referring to is reduced aggression, reduced sexual drive, and the reduced need to pee on everything, and scratching your fence down to get to bitches in season. I have nothing against your opinion on desexing I was just giving my personal feelings, which after all is what this forum is meant to be about. Let's not talk about buzz words :D Desexing is what it is, and therefore desexing reduces and increases adverse health conditions. And as for the other dramatics of entire males looting the neighbourhood and destroying fences ... seriously? Edited February 23, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldchow Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Showdog I agree with what you say. I have a minority breed which I,m watching disappear because of this idea that everyone needs to desex anything sold to a pet home or tie puppy buyers up into very limiting contracts, perhaps designed to cut down on the competiton in the show ring or for whatever reason. With the more popular breeds its obviously more complicated and I don't know what the answer would be if I was in that position. I sold a puppy to first time show owners, lovely home and yes they were very successful in the showring, began breeding for the dollar, did a fair bit towards mucking things up and yes I was told a few times it was my fault because I sold them the dog however many people finished up with good quality pets which nowadays is almost unheard of within my breed. The dog had a great home, BBQ chicked for lunch every Sunday, lived in the house etc and overall I didn't feel these people had done anything so bad after all. After 30 years in the dog world and always striving to do the right thing by the dogs, mine and everybody elses, I know that you are damned if you do and dmaned if you don't no matter what so I gave up worrying about what others might think long ago. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romana Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I will have my current and future puppies desexed before I sell them, i.e. at an age of 10-12 weeks or "as soon as the balls drop". Vets who say you must wait longer are following an antiquated school and have obviously missed out on bringing their educational standard up to date. Desexing contracts usually prove useless, as going to court for such a cause will cost ten or twenty time more than the puppy price and hardly anyone will go to court - but many will be very angry. Out of 13 puppies that I have sold with such contracts, I can prove that at least 4 contracts were broken. I recently had to deal with 2 buyers of second-generation puppies with severe joint problems whose mother was never hip-scored and was never meant for breeding, and was obviously mated to some neighbour dog who happened to look like the same breed. One of the puppies was surrendered to an animal shelter, because the "breeder" wouldn't take the sick puppy back but instead referred to the grandmother's breeder (me) as proof that the puppies had a 'perfectly healthy pedigree' background; the other puppy is undergoing expensive treatment. As a breeder, you can't rely on contracts, and you can't rely on the buyer's honesty, ethics or even common sense, and if your puppy buyers do the wrong thing it reflects back to you and can forever damage your good reputation. For the sake of the future generations of our dogs, please make sure that only suitable dogs are bred with by suitable people, and have all other pups desexed right at the source of origin! Desexing will not damage the dog in any way; early desexing is safe and common nowadays, and much cheaper if organised by the breeder at an early age than later; and desexing has heaps of benefits not only for the dog, but most importantly also for the owner. I believe that only registered ethical breeders should be allowed to obtain an undesexed dog. This has become common practice in the Australian cat breeding world already, and I hope that the dog breeding world will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I will have my current and future puppies desexed before I sell them, i.e. at an age of 10-12 weeks or "as soon as the balls drop". Vets who say you must wait longer are following an antiquated school and have obviously missed out on bringing their educational standard up to date. I suggest you read some of the literature out there about the structural and other impacts of early desexing and reconsider that assertion. I hope that you don't breed larger dogs. I'd consider avoidance of increased HD by delaying desexing until maturity is the hardly thinking of an "antiquated school". I sincerely hope that owning entire dogs is never restricted to registered breeders. That would mean no new exhibitors in the show ring and a lot of dog sports folk who'd be in a world of hurt with dogs impacted by juvenile desexing. Edited February 23, 2012 by Telida Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf http://dogtorj.com/main-course/neutering-misconceptions/the-truth-about-gonadectomy/ http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/spayneuterage.pdf http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1474-9726.2009.00513.x/pdf difficultypassing urinary calculi. - Increased likelihood of vulvar pyoderma (urine scald) - Increased likelihood of urinary incontinence. - Increased likelihood of adverse reaction to vaccinations (27-38%). - Notable decrease of activity/drive. (this is important to those whose animals aren't just pets but are trained to do work too) - Increased chance of "perpetual puppy syndrome" undesirableurination. - Inhibited social adjustment if spayed prior to complete cognitive development (usually a good time AFTER sexual maturity). - Substantial likelihood of appreciable demeanor change after spay - Increased likelihood of cognitive disorders if spayed before sexual maturity. - Increased likelihood of, or speeded progress of, degenerative osteological disorders. - Notable decrease in muscle mass (again, not all dogs are lawn ornaments or carpet speedbumps) - Generally live 2 (or greater) years shorter than unaltered littermates in controlled studies. Altered males: - Increased occurrence of urinary calculi. - Increased difficulty passing urinary calculi. - Increased chance of urinary obstruction. - Increased likelihood of urinary incontinence. - Increased likelihood of adverse reaction to vaccinations (27-38%). - Notable decrease in activity/drive. (same as above in female list) - Increased chance of "perpetual puppy syndrome" undesirableurination. - Inhibited social adjustment if castrated prior to sexual maturity. - Substantial likelihood of appreciable demeanor change after castration (same concept as above in female list... reproductive hormones affect more than just reproduction). - Increased likelihood of cognitive disorders if castrated before complete cognitive development (usually a good time AFTER sexual maturity). - Notable decrease in muscle mass (same as above) - Generally live 2 (or greater) years shorter than unaltered littermates in controlled studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 My girl is from a registered breeder, I was happy to get her desexed (did so at 11 months, desexing contract said by 12 months). But now I have a great relationship with her breeder, and can also put up an argument to other breeders if required, as I've put titles on my dog and demonstrated what I am like as an owner (with regular updates to the breeder, promoting the breed, helping out others in my area, etc). I'm quite confident that I won't have an issue getting an entire dog next time around, if that's what I want. Relationships are very important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I used a desexing contract with my 5 puppy girls breed in Sept. 2010. I offered a $100 refund on presentation of a Veterinary Certificate if the puppy is desexed at 6 months. It is my promise to credit the money to the buyer if this is done. So far everyone has taken this offer up, and all four girls that were sold have been desexed. Edited February 23, 2012 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weasel Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I believe that only registered ethical breeders should be allowed to obtain an undesexed dog. thats a bit oppressive isn't it? seriously? The term "altered" speaks for it self, i think its a bit twisted "altering" all dogs except "perfect" dogs. Its not natural so it cant be better for the dog in all cases. Edited February 23, 2012 by weasel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Desexing contracts will not stand up in court and anyone who thinks they can tell a consumer what to do with a product they have purchased is kidding themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Desexing contracts will not stand up in court and anyone who thinks they can tell a consumer what to do with a product they have purchased is kidding themselves. Would it stand up in court if I didn't refund the promised $100 refund on desexing as stated in my contract? My desexing contract promises I will refund $100 if the dog is desexed. Not that I will sue them if they don't desex it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Desexing contracts will not stand up in court and anyone who thinks they can tell a consumer what to do with a product they have purchased is kidding themselves. I can think of two desexing cases that have been to court, each time the breeder won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weasel Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 What breed are you looking to buy Weasels??? How exciting!! Hello! I have been looking at getting a German Pinscher, but not for a while. I think they have a similar temperament to my last dog which was a mixed breed which would be deemed imperfect buy some peeps here it seems ;-) It looks like your a whippet person, I love whippets too. They are great dogs, such fun and very friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Really, can you state case numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Desexing contracts will not stand up in court and anyone who thinks they can tell a consumer what to do with a product they have purchased is kidding themselves. I can think of two desexing cases that have been to court, each time the breeder won. Dogs are property and you cant dictate to someone after you sell them a dog as to what they can and cant do with it any more than you can tell someone if they change the colour of their car that you have sold them they have to give it back. What did they win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 scratching your fence down to get to bitches in season. I have an entire male dog who has been used and he just sits on the lounge and howls mournfully soflty for a few days when the bitch across the road is in season. He has never tried to get to her even when i walk him to the car off lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 The buyers were taken to court as they said they refused to desex the pups, as the breeder offers to refund a portion/or all of the cost of desexing they had no defence and the pups were desexed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I look at it this way - I chose to sell you a puppy based on many things and one of them is that you will desex. If you say you won't, then you won't get a puppy. No different to voiding a warranty or forfeiting on a loan repayment - terms and conditions just like a puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Really, can you state case numbers? Sorry I don't have that, I only read the paper work at a show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 What breed are you looking to buy Weasels??? How exciting!! Hello! I have been looking at getting a German Pinscher, but not for a while. I think they have a similar temperament to my last dog which was a mixed breed which would be deemed imperfect buy some peeps here it seems ;-) It looks like your a whippet person, I love whippets too. They are great dogs, such fun and very friendly. I like the look of GPs, haven't met many though. Good luck in your search :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I look at it this way - I chose to sell you a puppy based on many things and one of them is that you will desex. If you say you won't, then you won't get a puppy. No different to voiding a warranty or forfeiting on a loan repayment - terms and conditions just like a puppy. Actually its not. If the person were paying the pup off and the pup was security that's entirely different to someone owning something and being made to do with it something the previous owner said they had to. The court only sees it in dollar amounts not emotion. Until my car is paid in full its owned by the finance company but once I make the final payment I get to won it and do what I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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