Do We Over Medicate Our Dogs

[Erny]

I don't agree with using homoeopathy. It simply doesn't work. It has no active ingredients. It's useless.

We are not talking about masking problems, we are talking about preventing flea, worm and tick problems. Homoeopathy can't do this, and has not been proven to be effective in doing anything other than making money for the people that sell it.

Homeopathy works for me. Although I don't use wormers nor flea treatments. Been no need to. Haven't had a flea issue and instead of filling my dog with chemicals to get rid of worms that aren't there, I have had periodic faeces tests done. I haven't done a comparison but I'd suggest it's worked out the same price if not cost me less than it would have to purchase the worming medication every quarter.

And, as it turns out, each worm burden count done on the faeces has proved negative, so I'm glad I haven't been filling his belly full of dog wormers.

ETA: And the suggestion that we aren't harming our dogs? How do we know?

Edited February 22, 2012 by Erny

[sandgrubber]

I don't agree with using homoeopathy. It simply doesn't work. It has no active ingredients. It's useless.

We are not talking about masking problems, we are talking about preventing flea, worm and tick problems. Homoeopathy can't do this, and has not been proven to be effective in doing anything other than making money for the people that sell it.

Homeopathy works for me. Although I don't use wormers nor flea treatments. Been no need to. Haven't had a flea issue and instead of filling my dog with chemicals to get rid of worms that aren't there, I have had periodic faeces tests done. I haven't done a comparison but I'd suggest it's worked out the same price if not cost me less than it would have to purchase the worming medication every quarter.

And, as it turns out, each worm burden count done on the faeces has proved negative, so I'm glad I haven't been filling his belly full of dog wormers.

ETA: And the suggestion that we aren't harming our dogs? How do we know?

On the homeopathy debate: there's a great documentary to look at it.

see, eg, http://topdocumentar...omeopathy-test/

clip from that site:

Homeopathy was pioneered over 200 years ago. Practitioners and patients are convinced it has the power to heal. Today, some of the most famous and influential people in the world, including pop stars, politicians, footballers and even Prince Charles, all use homeopathic remedies. Yet according to traditional science, they are wasting their money.Skeptic James Randi is so convinced that homeopathy will not work, that he has offered $1m to anyone who can provide convincing evidence of its effects. For the first time in the programme's history, Horizon conducts its own scientific experiment, to try and win his money. If they succeed, they will not only be $1m richer – they will also force scientists to rethink some of their fundamental beliefs.

The bottom line, if you watch the doco or follow other attempts to test the scientific validity of homeopathy, is that it is a crock. Prayer is just as effective. On the other hand, both homeopathy and prayer fulfill the first dictate of the Hippocratic Oath: they do no harm. That may not be true of some of the medications we commonly use on dogs.

The fact that homeopathic cures seem to work for many people is evidence that we over-medicate. If a 'do-nothing' medicine seems to work, there was no need to medicate.

My father was a doctor. One of the things he said was nice about being a doctor was that fact that most complaints resolve themselves within two weeks . . . thus any 'cure' he prescribed was likely to work. Homeopathic medicines are a great placebo.

There may be some exceptions. Calendula cerate, a homeopathic remedy, is great for burns and wounds. But the normal homeopathic routine about diluting and diluting and diluting to get extremely weak solutions has not been validated by scientific testing . . . despite many efforts to validate it.

Edited February 22, 2012 by sandgrubber

[oztoller]

I've just had one dog have his annual vaccinations last week and then this week both were due for their worming and flea tablets. It got me thinking...I know there has been some debate whether we over vaccinate our dogs and therefore people have moved to different vaccination schedules such as every 3 years or are titre testing instead.

But is there the same debate over wether we are giving worm & flea treatments too often?

To me there seems to be ALOT of chemicals being administered to them which I don't really like very much. Could I change to worming/flea treatments every second month without putting the dogs at too much risk?

THE DEBATE IS OVER IT IS NOW WELL ESTABLISHED THAT AFTER 3 YEAARS DOGS NO LONGER NEED VACCINATIONS. wORMING IS QUIYE A DIFFERENT QUESTION YOU NEED TO BE EXTRA CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN REGILAR WORMING FOR ALL WORMS INCLUDING HEART WORM. sUPERMARKET PRODUCTS ARE QUITE ACCEPTABLE MAKE SURE THAT THE ALL WORMER YOU CHOOSE HAS HEARWORM AS WELL AS ALL THE OTHERS ALSO GIVE THE CORRECT DOSE FOR THE EIGHTN OF YOUR DOH. dENISE bRING SINCE 1965

[oztoller]

I've just had one dog have his annual vaccinations last week and then this week both were due for their worming and flea tablets. It got me thinking...I know there has been some debate whether we over vaccinate our dogs and therefore people have moved to different vaccination schedules such as every 3 years or are titre testing instead.

But is there the same debate over wether we are giving worm & flea treatments too often?

To me there seems to be ALOT of chemicals being administered to them which I don't really like very much. Could I change to worming/flea treatments every second month without putting the dogs at too much risk?

THE DEBATE IS OVER IT IS NOW WELL ESTABLISHED THAT AFTER 3 YEAARS DOGS NO LONGER NEED VACCINATIONS. wORMING IS QUIYE A DIFFERENT QUESTION YOU NEED TO BE EXTRA CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN REGILAR WORMING FOR ALL WORMS INCLUDING HEART WORM. sUPERMARKET PRODUCTS ARE QUITE ACCEPTABLE MAKE SURE THAT THE ALL WORMER YOU CHOOSE HAS HEARWORM AS WELL AS ALL THE OTHERS ALSO GIVE THE CORRECT DOSE FOR THE WEIGHT OF YOUR DOG. dENISE bREEDING SINCE 1965

[kiesha09]

I've just had one dog have his annual vaccinations last week and then this week both were due for their worming and flea tablets. It got me thinking...I know there has been some debate whether we over vaccinate our dogs and therefore people have moved to different vaccination schedules such as every 3 years or are titre testing instead.

But is there the same debate over wether we are giving worm & flea treatments too often?

To me there seems to be ALOT of chemicals being administered to them which I don't really like very much. Could I change to worming/flea treatments every second month without putting the dogs at too much risk?

THE DEBATE IS OVER IT IS NOW WELL ESTABLISHED THAT AFTER 3 YEAARS DOGS NO LONGER NEED VACCINATIONS. wORMING IS QUIYE A DIFFERENT QUESTION YOU NEED TO BE EXTRA CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN REGILAR WORMING FOR ALL WORMS INCLUDING HEART WORM. sUPERMARKET PRODUCTS ARE QUITE ACCEPTABLE MAKE SURE THAT THE ALL WORMER YOU CHOOSE HAS HEARWORM AS WELL AS ALL THE OTHERS ALSO GIVE THE CORRECT DOSE FOR THE EIGHTN OF YOUR DOH. dENISE bRING SINCE 1965

This is the first time I've ever heard this... I have always been told to steer well clear of the supermarket products. Can anyone shed any further light on this?

[aussielover]

Some supermarket products are ok. You just need to check the ingredients and the concentration/ amount of active ingredient.

I only use advantix for tick prevention and heartguard for heartworm protection, although that is extra cautious as there haven't been many reported heartworm cases in sydney.

[Erny]

THE DEBATE IS OVER IT IS NOW WELL ESTABLISHED THAT AFTER 3 YEAARS DOGS NO LONGER NEED VACCINATIONS. wORMING IS QUIYE A DIFFERENT QUESTION YOU NEED TO BE EXTRA CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN REGILAR WORMING FOR ALL WORMS INCLUDING HEART WORM. sUPERMARKET PRODUCTS ARE QUITE ACCEPTABLE MAKE SURE THAT THE ALL WORMER YOU CHOOSE HAS HEARWORM AS WELL AS ALL THE OTHERS ALSO GIVE THE CORRECT DOSE FOR THE EIGHTN OF YOUR DOH. dENISE bRING SINCE 1965

What do you class as "regular" worming, Oztoller?

And IMO the heart worm medication is only really needed when in a climate that promotes and permits heart worm development and where there are the mosquitoes to transmit it.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Erny

[Aidan3]

On the other hand, both homeopathy and prayer fulfill the first dictate of the Hippocratic Oath: they do no harm. That may not be true of some of the medications we commonly use on dogs.

That's a good point, however I think the exceptions should be noted - where effective treatment is foregone in favour of homeopathy or prayer. Or where risk is increased on an unproven principle (e.g homeopathic "vaccines"). I've lost count of the number of times I've seen Rescue Remedy suggested where a dog might benefit greatly from an anxiolytic or given effective behaviour modification.

[pebbles]

Haven't vacc'd a dog after the 16 month one - never used heartworm treatment - never used a continual flea treatment, just check constantly and treat immediately, never get to infestation level, probably needed treatment maybe 5/6 times - worm as babies, then faecal checks done, seldom need treatment - never used tick treatment - and this is with a lot of dogs over 50 years. I often wonder when someone says they treat with 'whatever' and never see a flea, perhaps they wouldn't have any if they didn't treat?

[Erny]

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen Rescue Remedy suggested where a dog might benefit greatly from an anxiolytic or given effective behaviour modification.

That's true, but save for when it's an immediate and urgent danger of irreversible harm, isn't a homeopathic remedy such as Rescue Remedy better to try first, rather than reaching for the drug cabinet? See no results in the very short term if not immediately, then move on to the 'big guns' so to speak?

[Greytmate]

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen Rescue Remedy suggested where a dog might benefit greatly from an anxiolytic or given effective behaviour modification.

That's true, but save for when it's an immediate and urgent danger of irreversible harm, isn't a homeopathic remedy such as Rescue Remedy better to try first, rather than reaching for the drug cabinet? See no results in the very short term if not immediately, then move on to the 'big guns' so to speak?

If reaching for the RR calms an owner down, half the behaviour modification is probably already achieved. But it seems so very wrong to me to be scamming people by selling them RR instead of encouraging them to try behaviour modification.

[Erny]

If reaching for the RR calms an owner down, half the behaviour modification is probably already achieved. But it seems so very wrong to me to be scamming people by selling them RR instead of encouraging them to try behaviour modification.

I agree, Greytmate. Although I think it is a little OT which is why I didn't mention it, but definitely IMO from what I read and hear, there are too many times when drugs are prescribed without behaviour modification technique support. Or ..... would behaviour modification techniques be included as conjunctive (not sure if that's the right word I'm looking for) homeopathic treatment?

[Aidan3]

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen Rescue Remedy suggested where a dog might benefit greatly from an anxiolytic or given effective behaviour modification.

That's true, but save for when it's an immediate and urgent danger of irreversible harm, isn't a homeopathic remedy such as Rescue Remedy better to try first, rather than reaching for the drug cabinet? See no results in the very short term if not immediately, then move on to the 'big guns' so to speak?

The most observable signs of anxiety can't go on forever, most dogs calm down outwardly fairly quickly if left to their own devices. So you can give a dog RR, the dog finds somewhere quiet to lay down, then eventually settles down and the RR gets some credit. The truth is it did nothing whatsoever, and whatever caused the anxious behaviour is still there, unaddressed, until next time.

Incidentally, the same thing happens with disease and injuries. My knees hurt, it gets worse, then worse until I am motivated to seek treatment, so I go to the chemist and the sales assistant recommends the Arnica cream that her sister had great success with. My knee pain goes away, I'm happy. Until my knees start to ache again. I could repeat that cycle for years.

Actually, I went to the doctor last week about a hernia that I'd first reported two years ago. Every time it hurt enough to go to the doctor the pain would go away before I'd made the appointment. Did a little googling this time, found out it could kill me. That spurred me on to make the appointment!

It seems every day I hear about dogs that are on psychotropic medications they don't need, and others that aren't getting medication they definitely do need. This usually has something to do with the owner's ability to provide it, and their opinions on behaviour and medication.

BTW, I'm less concerned about a dog who is getting medication without behaviour modification than a dog who is getting behaviour modification that really needs medication. There is evidence that medication can help in the long-term, even after medication has been discontinued, without prescribed behaviour modification. Dogs are always learning, if they are in a good place (biochemically) they will learn good things. Better if we can help it along, though, which is why we do what we do.

[Erny]

A little bit of "agree to disagree" from me. Admittedly, I'm not a scientist. But even what you've written about "truth is it did nothing", might potentially be anecdotal, assuming you're speaking generally and not keeping it specific. In some cases homeopathy can do something. The other thing I don't like is sending the message to people that drugs might be the more important thing to reach for because the majority of problem behaviours I see and work with are there due to owners not having time to work with their dogs. Often, get the interactions going and going well, and the problem improves considerably. I'm not against drugs, but I do think they should be regarded and used judiciously and not as the first option. Also, even if you are right in that RR doesn't work (I don't use it myself), it could just be the placebo that people need to relax a bit, and that (ie owners relaxing) might be what their dog actually needed.

[Aidan3]

A little bit of "agree to disagree" from me. Admittedly, I'm not a scientist. But even what you've written about "truth is it did nothing", might potentially be anecdotal, assuming you're speaking generally and not keeping it specific.

I was talking about that example, but every well designed experiment has shown that to be the case also so I think it could be taken generally. If someone comes up with a well designed experiment that demonstrates efficacy, I'm willing to reconsider that opinion.

You may not be a scientist, but you are a critical thinker so your contribution in these discussions is always illuminating, even if we don't agree :)

The other thing I don't like is sending the message to people that drugs might be the more important thing to reach for because the majority of problem behaviours I see and work with are there due to owners not having time to work with their dogs.

I don't think I sent that message. I said that every day I hear about dogs on medication they don't need, and others not getting medication they do need. My considered opinion is that medicating where behaviour modification might be sufficient is the lesser evil compared to not medicating when behaviour modification is not sufficient.

[Greytmate]

If reaching for the RR calms an owner down, half the behaviour modification is probably already achieved. But it seems so very wrong to me to be scamming people by selling them RR instead of encouraging them to try behaviour modification.

I agree, Greytmate. Although I think it is a little OT which is why I didn't mention it, but definitely IMO from what I read and hear, there are too many times when drugs are prescribed without behaviour modification technique support. Or ..... would behaviour modification techniques be included as conjunctive (not sure if that's the right word I'm looking for) homeopathic treatment?

I just meant that the neurotic/anxious owner would be fooled into thinking that the RR will work, and so they calm down themselves. Then the dog wouldn't have have to deal with their anxiety as well as its own.

If a dog has behaviour problems a vet should be consulted first to rule out any physical cause, but I wouldn't want to see homoeopathic treatment done alongside behaviour modification if the success of the modification meant that homeopathy was falsely credited for it. Homeopathy can never work, because the treatments are just water.

[Jumabaar]

Haven't vacc'd a dog after the 16 month one - never used heartworm treatment - never used a continual flea treatment, just check constantly and treat immediately, never get to infestation level, probably needed treatment maybe 5/6 times - worm as babies, then faecal checks done, seldom need treatment - never used tick treatment - and this is with a lot of dogs over 50 years. I often wonder when someone says they treat with 'whatever' and never see a flea, perhaps they wouldn't have any if they didn't treat?

I think its very location dependant. There are some flea hot spots here in sydney that it doesnt matter what people do its a constant battle. My mums place gets a flea infestation every November (although this year it happened in Jan) so she gets in during october and treats twice which is usually enough to keep everything under control.

I treat for ticks when I go into a tick area- with a large coated breed I want some back up as well as doing tick checks.

Your lucky living where you do- safe from so many nasties!!

[pebbles]

I've had dogs since I was a kid, Aussie Terrier and Rough Collie in Melbourne. When we moved to Gippsland about 50+ years ago I started showing seriously and had more dogs and I've always followed the same practices. I've been in the Mallee for the last 20 years. When I first moved here there was a mass of fleas under the house at the front. I was the only one who got bitten, :laugh: the dogs were in the back. When I went out the front door my legs would just be covered with fleas but the pest control man fixed them with his spray a couple of days after I moved in, the result of stray cats.

I guess I've been lucky as I've travelled Aussie from Vic to SA to NT and the east coast to Brisbane, though it does seem there are more ticks etc. being reported now.

[Erny]

Homeopathy can never work, because the treatments are just water.

Really? See, if you're making that as a sweeping statement to all homeopathy, that's where I disagree. I can certainly attest to Calendula Tea having tremendous results for the applications I have put it to. And because of the Calendula, I've been able to steer away from anti-histamines, cortisone. So saying "Homeopathy can never work" is a huge statement that in my experience is simply wrong.

[Greytmate]

Homeopathy can never work, because the treatments are just water.

Really? See, if you're making that as a sweeping statement to all homeopathy, that's where I disagree. I can certainly attest to Calendula Tea having tremendous results for the applications I have put it to. And because of the Calendula, I've been able to steer away from anti-histamines, cortisone. So saying "Homeopathy can never work" is a huge statement that in my experience is simply wrong.

Calendula Tea isn't homoeopathy.

Tea is made by brewing the flowers in hot water. Where as Homoeopathic remedies are over 99% water and a possibly indiscernible amount of calendular.

Calendula is a well known mild herbal treatment because of the chemicals it contains. Homeopathic remedy doesn't contain any of these useful chemicals.