kiesha09 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I've just had one dog have his annual vaccinations last week and then this week both were due for their worming and flea tablets. It got me thinking...I know there has been some debate whether we over vaccinate our dogs and therefore people have moved to different vaccination schedules such as every 3 years or are titre testing instead. But is there the same debate over wether we are giving worm & flea treatments too often? To me there seems to be ALOT of chemicals being administered to them which I don't really like very much. Could I change to worming/flea treatments every second month without putting the dogs at too much risk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) What you could do is establish exactly what parasites you NEED to treat and what can be dealt with on an 'occurence' basis. My guys are treated for heartworm only during mosquito months. I would never give an injectable for this. They always get their internal parasite tablets every three months. They are given tick preventatives only when in a tick area (not often) They don't get flea treatments and I've only ever had to treat them for fleas twice in 14 years. The idea of giving a once a month all in one "just in case" treatment has never appealed to me. I prefer to tackle individual issues with specific treatments and only as required. Easy doesn't necessarily equal better in that regard. However, I would not be mucking about with half or less regular dosages. Edited February 21, 2012 by Telida Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I've never routinely treated for fleas, I'll only treat if they are present. I have stuck to a 3 month schedule for intestinal worms, but I am thinking of having fecal tests done instead to determine first if it is needed. I only have a couple of dogs though, might not work if you had a pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The risk is in allowing the dog to get parasites more than using a parasite control. Fleas and worms take a very long time to kill a dog, but they make life very bad for dogs in the mean time. Where as the popular control products have shown to cause no problems for most of the dogs that they are used on. You might not like administering chemicals, but if you don't then the fleas and worms administer chemicals of their own. Harmful ones that will irritate the dog. If you wait until you notice fleas before treating, the dog and environment will be fully infested by then and it will be harder to shift them. The idea of intestinal worming is to kill any juvenile worms in the gut before they get large and start causing harm and breeding. Much better to treat according to the recommended schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) The risk is in allowing the dog to get parasites more than using a parasite control. Fleas and worms take a very long time to kill a dog, but they make life very bad for dogs in the mean time. Where as the popular control products have shown to cause no problems for most of the dogs that they are used on. You might not like administering chemicals, but if you don't then the fleas and worms administer chemicals of their own. Harmful ones that will irritate the dog. If you wait until you notice fleas before treating, the dog and environment will be fully infested by then and it will be harder to shift them. The idea of intestinal worming is to kill any juvenile worms in the gut before they get large and start causing harm and breeding. Much better to treat according to the recommended schedule. I agree. We use homeopathic options where ever possible, titre test in preference to vaccinating every year, but all 3 dogs are treated for parasites religiously as recommended by the manufacturers of the product (and our vets). Tick treatment is now year round after a significant number of ticks 'out of season' last year (two on our dogs - both dead and many more seen by our vets), although we do drop the spot on and keep the collar for the winter months. In general though I think that we do over medicate dogs - in many cases I've seen dogs medicated because the treating vet didn't really know what the cause was or didn't know how to find the cause. Anti-biotics, cortisone and NSAID's are the drugs I think are most over used. FTR - I don't have any qualifications, but I do trust the vets that I go to and I have seen them achieve amazing results when others just wanted to medicate to mask the problem. Edited February 21, 2012 by Agility Dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I don't agree with using homoeopathy. It simply doesn't work. It has no active ingredients. It's useless. We are not talking about masking problems, we are talking about preventing flea, worm and tick problems. Homoeopathy can't do this, and has not been proven to be effective in doing anything other than making money for the people that sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Greytmate be very careful about what you say. Homeopathy can and does work I have used it on horses with great results. It is your opinion that it doesn't work but others will strongly disagree I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I don't agree with using homoeopathy. It simply doesn't work. It has no active ingredients. It's useless. It might not have worked for you but it has worked for me in the past, not for worming or fleas, but for some behavioural problems it's done it's job. I've never had a huge flea problem here, the occasional dog has had the occasional flea on them, which they are treated for, but neither they or the enviroment became flea infested by not treating regularly for fleas. Same with worms, my dogs are wormed 2 or 3 times a year when I think about it. Treating every month for things that don't exist is money down the drain. It's useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Greytmate be very careful about what you say. Homeopathy can and does work I have used it on horses with great results. It is your opinion that it doesn't work but others will strongly disagree I'm sure. It isn't just my opinion. There is no evidence available that it works. Many conditions will heal on their own, and that may be attributed to homoeopathy. But in controlled double-blind trials, homoeopathy has shown to be totally ineffective. If people strongly disagree they need to provide the evidence to show they are right. We have been waiting years and no reliable evidence has ever been produced. The advocates of homeopathy are the ones that need to be careful in what they say. In my opinion homoeopathy is just a legal scam. People can disagree, but without evidence they are wasting their time arguing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Yeah I agree with those re the homeopathic remedies.... I too used it on my horses with great success. To be honest though I don't know much about it for dogs. Anyone care to shed some light or have any links I could read up on? But the jury is still out for me on worming and flea treatments. I've never had a problem with either (well actually one outbreak of fleas which still gives me the heebie jeebies) but I don't want it to ever become a problem either. For those who use the 3 monthly worming schedule what product do you use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Greytmate be very careful about what you say. Homeopathy can and does work I have used it on horses with great results. It is your opinion that it doesn't work but others will strongly disagree I'm sure. It isn't just my opinion. There is no evidence available that it works. Many conditions will heal on their own, and that may be attributed to homoeopathy. But in controlled double-blind trials, homoeopathy has shown to be totally ineffective. If people strongly disagree they need to provide the evidence to show they are right. We have been waiting years and no reliable evidence has ever been produced. The advocates of homeopathy are the ones that need to be careful in what they say. In my opinion homoeopathy is just a legal scam. People can disagree, but without evidence they are wasting their time arguing about it. ok if you say so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 For the record I dont deworm my dogs I get their stool samples checked at the vets, but I do use heartworm treatments. I dont vaccinate my adult dog as he has allergies we titer and I will probably do the same for the puppy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowstarin Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Firstly Advantix, advocate and advantage are not "Chemicals" as such. They were derived from the human edible crop divisions that use the same active ingredient of the Advantage family range - Imidicloprid. This product is used on food crops that you and I EAT. It is safe and has an extremely wide safety margin. It is absorbed into the Lipid layer of skin (on animals) and is absorbed into the whole edible areas on crops. it is not like your Active ingredients of other products ie Frontline sentinel, interceptor ect that use chemically derived actives. Re worming: Advocate is used monthly and has the active Imidicloprid and an additional additive of moxidectin which separates upon application and goes to the differing organs that are affected by the myriad or worms that animals are afflicted by. The major difference and UNIQUE properties of advocate as opposed to other preps are: Advocate kills and evacuates worms, hatchlings and larvae that have accumulated and then PROTECTS against getting ANY new worms as opposed to ALL other worming preps that just evacuate accumulated worms. ie NO PROTECTION. This unique property of Advocate is called "steady state" whereby the plasma holds a level of protection that DOES NOT ALLOW WORMS to enter, migrate or procreate at any time. the worms are killed immediately upon coming to the treated animal AT ALL TIMES. Compliance of use (CONTINUITY) is extremely important for complete protection against getting any new worms or new fleas or new ticks. Use monthly (or fortnighly) to maintain Steady state. Advantix is the ONLY registered product available that not only KILLS but REPELS all biting insects ie ticks fleas flies mosquitos horse flies ect ect etc. Sarcoptic mange mites and demodex are not immuno deficient nor auto immune related issues. The are parasites and advocate treats and PROTECTS the animal from reinfestations. Re Permoxin. This is a PERMETHRIN and as such is TOXIC to cats. It must never be applied to cats and should NEVER be sprayed on dogs that live with cats as the direct contact may lead to serious issues for the cat including death. CATS cannot metabolize Permethrins. With regard to ADVANTIX it has Imidicloprid and the additive of Permethrin. It should NEVER be applied to cats - HOWEVER at the time of APPLICATION ONLY you need to separate the dog and cat for approx 6 hours until the actives have spread throughout the lipid layer of the dogs skin. From this time forward there is ABSOLUTELY no issue of a cat and dog together. The can lick cuddle sleep ect till their little heart is content. The Advantage range of products is unique in that Imidicloprid kills parasites on contact within 1 - 3 minutes 100% efficacy for the full 1 month. All other products including frontline, comfortis, sentinel ect ect ect require the flea, tick mossie ect to BITE TO GET A DOSE of their actives from the bloodstream of the dog/cat because their active ingredients cross through and remain in the bloodstreams. Also Parasites cannot become "immune" to Imidicloprid like they do to the other products ie fipronil (frontline) ect. Permoxin has a low efficacy hence the requirement to apply frequently. Imidicloprid kills on contact so where ever your pet lays or goes it is killing parasites environmentally too. Oh and one more thing, You may still see fleas or ticks on your pet (that is wearing advantage family products) at any time, HOWEVER, those fleas will be in the process of dying and will appear slow and partly paralysed. The will be dead within 1 - 5 minutes of coming into contact with a protected pet. The are immediatly paralysed so cannot bite your pet but will die off. The new fleas in the environment will jump on your pet but will be killed on contact with either a hair shaft or skin that is wearing the product. The fleas cycle is only 5 % of the environment are live adult fleas, 50% are larvae the rest eggs and hatchlings. Advantage family kills live, and larval. Fleas need a blood feed to be able to lay eggs. eggs do not cause animals greif, LARVAE hatches to become Adult fleas HENCE killing adult fleas and larvae will acheive a flea free environment. It is waterfast and does not leave greasy marks. Apply to a dry dog and do not bath for at least 2-3 days after application. Safe on pregnant and lactating bitches and Advantage can be used from newborn age also suited for rabbits and ferrets Advantix from 7 weeks and Advocate from 7 weeks of age too. Advocate for Ferrets. Re advocate not doing tapeworm - If you dont have fleas you dont get tapeworm. hence you dont need to tapeworm your dogs when using advocate. Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 What you could do is establish exactly what parasites you NEED to treat and what can be dealt with on an 'occurence' basis. My guys are treated for heartworm only during mosquito months. I would never give an injectable for this. They always get their internal parasite tablets every three months. They are given tick preventatives only when in a tick area (not often) They don't get flea treatments and I've only ever had to treat them for fleas twice in 14 years. The idea of giving a once a month all in one "just in case" treatment has never appealed to me. I prefer to tackle individual issues with specific treatments and only as required. Easy doesn't necessarily equal better in that regard. However, I would not be mucking about with half or less regular dosages. Yep this is me too. Heartworm is something I don't want to risk, so that gets given regularly all year round. I feed a completely raw diet so I also worm monthly as I don't want to take the chance with hydatids. All doses are correct as per weight. I only treat for fleas if I come across them and I haven't vaccinated since he was 16wks old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Firstly Advantix, advocate and advantage are not "Chemicals" as such. They were derived from the human edible crop divisions that use the same active ingredient of the Advantage family range - Imidicloprid. This product is used on food crops that you and I EAT. It is safe and has an extremely wide safety margin. It is absorbed into the Lipid layer of skin (on animals) and is absorbed into the whole edible areas on crops. it is not like your Active ingredients of other products ie Frontline sentinel, interceptor ect that use chemically derived actives. Re worming: Advocate is used monthly and has the active Imidicloprid and an additional additive of moxidectin which separates upon application and goes to the differing organs that are affected by the myriad or worms that animals are afflicted by. The major difference and UNIQUE properties of advocate as opposed to other preps are: Advocate kills and evacuates worms, hatchlings and larvae that have accumulated and then PROTECTS against getting ANY new worms as opposed to ALL other worming preps that just evacuate accumulated worms. ie NO PROTECTION. This unique property of Advocate is called "steady state" whereby the plasma holds a level of protection that DOES NOT ALLOW WORMS to enter, migrate or procreate at any time. the worms are killed immediately upon coming to the treated animal AT ALL TIMES. Compliance of use (CONTINUITY) is extremely important for complete protection against getting any new worms or new fleas or new ticks. Use monthly (or fortnighly) to maintain Steady state. Advantix is the ONLY registered product available that not only KILLS but REPELS all biting insects ie ticks fleas flies mosquitos horse flies ect ect etc. Sarcoptic mange mites and demodex are not immuno deficient nor auto immune related issues. The are parasites and advocate treats and PROTECTS the animal from reinfestations. Re Permoxin. This is a PERMETHRIN and as such is TOXIC to cats. It must never be applied to cats and should NEVER be sprayed on dogs that live with cats as the direct contact may lead to serious issues for the cat including death. CATS cannot metabolize Permethrins. With regard to ADVANTIX it has Imidicloprid and the additive of Permethrin. It should NEVER be applied to cats - HOWEVER at the time of APPLICATION ONLY you need to separate the dog and cat for approx 6 hours until the actives have spread throughout the lipid layer of the dogs skin. From this time forward there is ABSOLUTELY no issue of a cat and dog together. The can lick cuddle sleep ect till their little heart is content. The Advantage range of products is unique in that Imidicloprid kills parasites on contact within 1 - 3 minutes 100% efficacy for the full 1 month. All other products including frontline, comfortis, sentinel ect ect ect require the flea, tick mossie ect to BITE TO GET A DOSE of their actives from the bloodstream of the dog/cat because their active ingredients cross through and remain in the bloodstreams. Also Parasites cannot become "immune" to Imidicloprid like they do to the other products ie fipronil (frontline) ect. Permoxin has a low efficacy hence the requirement to apply frequently. Imidicloprid kills on contact so where ever your pet lays or goes it is killing parasites environmentally too. Oh and one more thing, You may still see fleas or ticks on your pet (that is wearing advantage family products) at any time, HOWEVER, those fleas will be in the process of dying and will appear slow and partly paralysed. The will be dead within 1 - 5 minutes of coming into contact with a protected pet. The are immediatly paralysed so cannot bite your pet but will die off. The new fleas in the environment will jump on your pet but will be killed on contact with either a hair shaft or skin that is wearing the product. The fleas cycle is only 5 % of the environment are live adult fleas, 50% are larvae the rest eggs and hatchlings. Advantage family kills live, and larval. Fleas need a blood feed to be able to lay eggs. eggs do not cause animals greif, LARVAE hatches to become Adult fleas HENCE killing adult fleas and larvae will acheive a flea free environment. It is waterfast and does not leave greasy marks. Apply to a dry dog and do not bath for at least 2-3 days after application. Safe on pregnant and lactating bitches and Advantage can be used from newborn age also suited for rabbits and ferrets Advantix from 7 weeks and Advocate from 7 weeks of age too. Advocate for Ferrets. Re advocate not doing tapeworm - If you dont have fleas you dont get tapeworm. hence you dont need to tapeworm your dogs when using advocate. Hope this helps Do you have to keep repeating this post? And what about hydatid tapeworms? They are completely different to the flea tapeworm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Nowstarin, your post reads like a sales pitch. :laugh: how much are you making flogging chemicals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Nowstarin, your post reads like a sales pitch. :laugh: how much are you making flogging chemicals? I *think* they might work for Bayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Nowstarin, your post reads like a sales pitch. :laugh: how much are you making flogging chemicals? I *think* they might work for Bayer Lol...yep agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Nowstarin, your post reads like a sales pitch. :laugh: how much are you making flogging chemicals? I *think* they might work for Bayer Lol...yep agree I wonder if this would be classed as free advertising for Bayer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Nowstarin, your post reads like a sales pitch. :laugh: how much are you making flogging chemicals? I *think* they might work for Bayer Lol...yep agree I wonder if this would be classed as free advertising for Bayer? It's such a lump of info that it's not very inviting to read! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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