New Puppy Night Howling

[Zitchdog]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post - I just got my first puppy last friday afternoon and I'm after some help/reassurance! Firstly - he is a 10 week welsh springer spaniel puppy named Zitch and my husband and I already love him to bits! He also seemed to be comfortable with us very quickly - we bought him home and he had no problems toileting, eating, playing or chilling with us - he seemed to bond instantly which was great. Few accidents in the house, but not unmanageble.

The problems started when we tried to put him to bed.

We have a canvas K9 crate for him and we put it in the laundry and popped him in. He freaked out, howling, screaming, scratching the door. This was too much for us - we felt cruel since it was his first night away from his mum/the litter. So we moved the crate to our ensuite for the first night and our WIR for the second (carpet to muffle howling). Both of these nights he cried for an hour or so before sleeping for around 4 hours. And then he woke up and howled and didn't stop. We toileted him and put him back in and he was totally uninterested in going back to sleep. Not wanting to reinforce the howling by letting him out we put up with it for 2-3 hours both times before just getting up around 7am.

The third night we were incredibly sleep deprived so we moved his crate to the laundry. We put his fluffy toy, a treat and a ticking clock in there for him and turned on a lamp and a low volume radio. We left the crate unzipped, newspapered the laundry, put some toys and small amount of water in there. I feel like he didn't sleep the entire night - all I heard was howling from 10pm to 6am when I got him up. I found this incredibly distressing and worrying - can howling for so long do any physical or emotional damage? The laundry door was scratched, he tore up all the newspaper and peed everywhere.

I rang the vet and the breeder and spoke to a rep at the pet store too. The breeder said to put the crate outside as he'd been sleeping outside at home, however, we don't feel like this can be an option until he stops howling at being left outside - we don't want the neighbours to kill us. The vet and the pet store lady said to zip up the crate in the laundry and just stick it out, not even get up to toilet him, so that's what we did last night - still with the clock, treat, light & radio. I can't be sure this time (because we discovered that if we use ear plugs, a pillow and leave on our ensuite exhaust fan, it drowns him out enough for us to sleep) but I think he still cried the vast majority of the night - 10pm to 6am. He also peed in his crate (understandable).

What I want to know is, are we doing anything wrong? Are we going to hurt him, is it too cruel? Do we have any other options or do we just stick it out and hope it stops soon? Any ideas on how long it might take?

I'm thinking about getting a hot water bottle for tonight and wrapping it in my tshirt, and also leaving the light off - what do you think? I also think we should get up at least once toilet him, he is only 10 weeks old?

I think we are doing ok with day time - but maybe you could just see what you think on that too! -

My husband and I both work full time but we have a small grassed yard that he can't escape from, a nice portico/side door niche that the crate and food/water bowls go in, two other water bowl spots and a big verandah, so we want him to largely be an outside dog. Not sure about sleeping, maybe once he's older and after the winter we might move him to sleeping outside too.

I worked from home yesterday and today to ease him into the separation. We got up at 6, played, toileted, fed. Husband went to work, and I left him outside with toys, a peanut butter kong (which he doesn't seem that interested in btw) and a pig snout chew which he adores. I'm leaving him for 3.5 hours and then spending an hour with him at lunch before going back inside and leaving him for another 3-4 hours.

Yesterday he was asleep both times I snuck back into the house and although I heard him howl a few times, he seemed to amuse himself or sleep ok on his own which was excellent. Today he was awake when I went inside and later saw me walk past a door dammit and has been howling a lot more than yesterday. He also pees at the door as he scratches it - I think from being upset?

I'm hoping he'll go ok on his own - I'm back to the office tomorrow so my husband is going to try and come home at lunch to check on him, but basically from next week he's on his own for 9-10 hours a day. Any toy suggestions?!

Anyway, I'm so sorry this was so long, but the sleeping thing really upsets me & I hope you can give me some tips and/or reassurance!

Thanks in advance,

Nat

Edited February 21, 2012 by Nat & James

[Salukifan]

Where do you want him to sleep as an adult?

You really don't want to be forcing him to pee where he sleeps - bad long term ramifications for toilet training.

You'll know if he's happy outside soon enough if you put him out there but he'd need an insulated kennel with appropriate bedding, not a crate.

The best recipe for a sound night's sleep is probably to give him company - ie put the crate beside your bed and talk to him if he's unhappy. You'll need to get up through the night if he stirs because he'll probably need to pee.

BUT if you want an outside dog, then train him from the get go to be outside.. and hope like hell he doesn't howl.

However, if you want him to sleep in the laundry (generally a bad choice IMO) then set your alarm for half way through the night, toilet him and ignore all the other crying. He's a social animal and he's been socially isolated so if you want him to get used to it then you need to tough it out.

[minimax]

Did he come from a pet shop or breeder? Why on earth would you not get up to let him go to the bathroom during the night, that's just cruel for a 10 week old. Of course he's distressed, he's in a new/strange environment.

It will get better but you have to be consistent. What sort of excercise does he get to tire him out?

I was in tears each night for the first few weeks I bought my pup home in December because she was crying so much at night but with a routine now she's fine. It only took about 2 weeks for her to settle down, now she goes into the crate without a fuss, only cries to be let out to pee during the night once or twice. However, she is wide awake at 5am and howls/cries/barks to be let out :p

Hang in there. When I needed advice and reassurance I hated people telling me to hang in there and it would get better, but it does lol

[Cavstar]

I would play some games with him throughout the day in the crate. Throw some treats in there & when he goes in praise, praise, praise!

If you see him going in there on his own accord give him a treat. Make it a fun experience!

My girl doesn't care much for peanut butter in her kong either - try something else. Mine loves the cheese spread. I found that when she was hard to settle in her crate a kong with cheese in it did the trick.

Hang in there.. she's just a baby! :)

[melinda10786]

You need to be consistent. When we got Ivy, she was put in her crate at night time which is next to our bed, and we took her out every few hours during the night to toilet. No play time, it was outside to toilet, back inside into the crate. You may find adding a hot water bottle, or heat pack buried under the blankets may also help. If he is really not interested in going back to sleep, a kong toy with some peanut butter/honey smeared on the inside helps.

We also found keeping both of them awake right up to bedtime helps, because they are so tired from not getting a nap. A little play time or training before bed, then outside to toilet and straight into bed. We don't use the crates anymore, but it is certainly helpful in toilet training and giving them an area to sleep in that is just their own. It took us about a week and a bit to get Ivy settled in, Monte took about a week, once we established a routine and stuck to it.

In terms of toys to keep him entertained, mine get a variety from - stuffed toys, plastic bottles with some dry food in the bottom so they rattle, balls, treat balls, Kongs. They also love some tugs I made myself from old sheets, my two play tug with each other.

Any photos by chance? (I have two cockers, love the springers :)..)

Edited February 21, 2012 by melinda10786

[lappiemum]

Hi Nat&James - welcome to puppy parenthood ;) and be rest assured that your puppy is completely normal LOL. You know when parents bring home a new baby from the hospital, and it cries all night and you see perfectly normal, lovely people looking like zoombies after a week or so? Well, the good news is that this is easier than dealing with that, if you go about it the right way.

Sleep deprivation isn't fun so there are some things you can do. My first tip would be forget the outside dog idea - I know that a lot of people feel strongly about this, but dogs are pack animals and its just not natural for them to be stuck outside while the rest of their 'pack' is elsewhere. The neighbours don't appreciate it much either. Certainly, have areas that are no-go areas, and have boundaries, but don't stick the poor pooch in the backyard all day and night by itself - that's just inviting disaster (and mooncraters in your garden).

You can do the controlled crying technique, or you can simply bring said pup into your room (in a crate) - puppy will be happy he is with you - but you will need to do a couple of toilet trips during the night. Work on a max of 3 - 4 hour intervals to start with and these will stretch out until he is older and can go the full night.

If you don't want to do the midnight wee walks, then have said pup in an area where he can toilet - not in his crate or bedding, as no-one likes sleeping in their own poop I recommend setting up a puppy pen, with a crate/area for sleeping, and newspapers and puppy wee pads ;) . There is a HEAP of information and advice out there but a good place to start is having a read of this http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/raising-puppy - I don't agree with it all 100% but its a good place to start ;)

As for the crying, he is a baby, so you have to expect it. You can have all the blankets and ticking clocks you like, but he wants to be near you. So you can either tough it out (and be really nice to your neighbours) with the controlled crying, or you can bring him in with you and go into a crate. I'm a softie so I'd go with option b. I also like my neighbours LOL.

[Rosaline]

Hi Nat, I'm guessing you got your pup from the same breeder as we did :D (Our girl is one of Indi's and only 9 weeks though, so you must have one of Meg's pups?)

Our girl has been here a week today, but aren't having any issues though. I read lots on crate training and routine and am treating her a bit like I did when putting my daughter to sleep in a cot! Most of the stuff I read says it's best to have them in your room until they can go all night without needing to go to the toilet.

Here's our routine:

- Dinner around 5:30pm

- Free access to water until 7:30pm

- 9pm I let her have a final small drink of water

- 10:30ish she goes to bed when I do (husband is long asleep by then!). Before I put her in the crate I give her a big cuddle, encourage her to walk in herself, pat and stroke her until she lies down. If she makes any noise I give a loud "Shh!".

When we are at home, she is inside or on the back deck with us. We have a highset house and she can't manage the stairs, so pretty much every hour until bedtime if she is awake, we take her down to the yard for a wee and a little play. Just before I go to bed I take her out for a final toilet.

We got a big wire crate with a divider, and a firm mattress with a polar fleece blanket. She seems to prefer this over anything soft. She has a couple of soft toys in there as well.

The crate is in the corner of our bedroom. We got a zipup cover for it, at night we put the side and front flaps down but leave the back one up. I don't get to read in bed anymore though, as if the light is on she gets a bit cranky, so I'd say definitely lights off!

The first three nights she woke around 1:30am and again around 4:30am, both times we took her straight out for a wee.

The next 3 nights she only woke 4-4:30am. At the 1:30 wee she was going back to sleep, but by 4:30 she obviously thinks it's breakfast time, so although he puts her back in she whines, yaps, scratches etc, although not in a distressed way, just in a "Hey! I know you're there and I want out of here, dammit! Get up and feed me!" kind of way. We stick our heads under the pillow for as long as possible, but usually by 5:30 he gives in, gets up, feeds her and tries to snooze on the back deck.

This morning she didn't wake until 5:20am

I'm mostly home during the day, but leave her on the back deck when I go out. Our neighbour says she whines a little bit when I first leave, but otherwise she's ok.

I'm not sure about the hotwater bottle, I worry more that she is too hot.

They are such delightful puppies though, aren't they! Scout is so naughty, she will drag away anything she can find on the floor, taking teatowels out of the washing basket is her favourite, and she tries to drag my rugs all over the house.

[Zitchdog]

Thank you for the replies everyone, it is much appreciated. Although it might be nice if some of you could tone down the criticism a bit and remember that people coming here for advice love their dog dearly and are doing the best they can with often very conflicting advice.

@ Telida Whippets

Like I said, not sure about sleeping as an adult, either laundry or outside depending on weather and temperament.

Also like I said he was in our room for the first two nights and only slept for a few hours and howled for the rest. Didn’t matter that we were only a metre from him or if we spoke or ignored or toileted or what, he just howled. We need to sleep so decided to move him to the laundry sooner.

Will set the alarm and toilet maybe twice a night and then drop down to one and tough it out, thank you.

@minimax

He came from a breeder as I mentioned and I didn’t get up to him last night because the vet specifically told me not to in case he was playing games with the crying. I felt uneasy about it and won't be doing it again.

He had his 10 week vaccination on Saturday so is confined to our yard for 2 weeks so at the moment exercise is mostly tug of war, rolling and running around with us. Hopefully will get easier once we can go for walks/runs.

@cavstar

I’ll do some more crate training thanks – he does like it and treats it as a refuge, it’s when it’s zipped up that he freaks out, will try and shut it for some periods tonight in the lounge when he’s still around us.

Good tip with the cheese spread, thanks ☺

@melinda10786

Thanks for the toy ideas, the dry food in a bottle is a great idea ☺ yep will try and be consistent with the crate and stick it out, cheers.

Will attach a pic, my avatar isn’t showing I guess?

@lappiemum

Thanks, we’ll stick with the laundry for sleeping, as I mentioned, he still howls even when he’s in our bedroom and we need to sleep, so controlled crying it is. Thanks for the link too.

@Rosaline

Auldana? That’s funny! Sounds like you’ve been luckier than us in the sleeping department, but yeah zitch is otherwise a darling! Scout is an awesome name, To Kill a Mockingbird is one of my favourite books ☺

We have a similar evening routine but I’ll try easing him into the crate a bit more, like that, cheers. Will also lose the light!

I was worried about the bottle being too hot too, but the weather has eased up a bit so I’m going try a lukewarm one tonight.

Thanks again everyone, I spoke to my husband and tonight it is playing with the crate a bit more in the evening, then eased into it in the laundry, still with the treat and clock and toy and radio, but also with a hot water bottle and the light off. Will get up twice and see how we go.

Much appreciated,

Nat

[Salukifan]

Nat and James,

Just be aware of the fact that the laundry is a heat sink.... coldest room in the house. Probably not so much of a problem now but in winter it can be very difficult for a dog to keep warm in there and indeed, pups don't have great temperature regulation so a bed well insulated from the floor and possibly a coat in winter will be required.

Any reason his crate can't be in a living area? If you want him to use it frequently and not just at bed time, it may assist with accustoming him to use it.

[harley]

Hi and welcome!

Your new pup is gorgeous!

You sound like a very caring owner.

My 'pup' is now 11 years old!lol The only other advice I can give is, give it time. He is a baby and wants to be with you as you are his new family. Sleep deprivation is horrid but if you show him patience, love and guidance now hopefully it will all pay off in the long run.

Good luck :)

[Rosaline]

Just read that you've only had Zitch since Friday, so 4 nights. That's not really very long, so I'd say he'll settle down soon. Pick the sleeping arrangement which suits you best and stick with it. Once he knows the routine and what is coming then I would guess he will become comfortable with it after several days. It sounds like you've been given conflicting advice and he's a still a bit unsettled.

Personally, I don't think it really matters where he sleeps, as long as it's consistent and he knows that's where bed is! My family have had dogs for 30+ years and this is the first time anyone in my family has used a crate. We've always just put our puppies in a laundry or similar with lots of newspaper on the ground and never had a problem in the long run (just a lot of morning mess to clean up!). Our first family dog always slept in a big shed! I was rather sceptical about crating but the breeder said the pups were used to the wire crates so we went with that.

If you are going to stick with the crate, the only way we have been able to cope is for my husband to go to bed at 8:30pm, then me later after the last toilet trip. That way he can cope with the early wake ups. Pay off is that I have to take her down the stairs every hour in the evening.

(And glad someone realised the connection with Scout - I've had so many "I though it was a girl puppy?" comments!)

[minimax]

@cavstar

I’ll do some more crate training thanks – he does like it and treats it as a refuge, it’s when it’s zipped up that he freaks out, will try and shut it for some periods tonight in the lounge when he’s still around us.

I feed Max in her crate (with the door open) to make it a happy place, so maybe try feeding your guy in his crate, zipping it up even just for a minute or two while he eats to show him it's a nice place to be?

[Podengo]

(And glad someone realised the connection with Scout - I've had so many "I though it was a girl puppy?" comments!)

Totally off topic here, but my little sister (person LOL) is named Scout, she used to get hassled at school for having a boy's name, but loves it now :D

[minimax]

(And glad someone realised the connection with Scout - I've had so many "I though it was a girl puppy?" comments!)

OT again, but my pup is Max and everyone says "what's his name" and I say "HER name is Max" and they say "oh, a girl ... Maxine?"

Some people just don't understand androgonous names for pets lol

[Zitchdog]

haha, I don't know if anyone here got it but Zitch is named after a how i met your mother episode where they play a car game called 'zitch dog' and only 2 people have got the reference so far - i get excited!

thanks for the welcome everyone, hopefully i'll have some better news to report in a few days ;)

[Guest lavendergirl]

Congratulations on the new addition. Some good suggestions given for you to consider. I wonder whether a wire crate may be better for him as the dog can see you better? I have never found that vets and people at pet stores have very useful advice regarding these situations - this forum provides some great information and tips. Good luck - I am sure things will settle down eventually when he learns the routine.

[PennyLane]

Hi there,

It took 3 weeks for my pup to settle.. the first week was the worst!! I felt like the worst person in the world for letting her cry and not knowing when she was crying to be toileted or crying for attention. I must admit it definitely got much better as time goes on. I used to get frustrated when people said "just let he cry she will be right" but now I think of it as the best advice ever. She now sleeps outside without a care in the world.. So yes, it does get easier.

My pup slept in my ensuite for the first week, I used a radio, pigs ears, toys and a heat pack wrapped in my shirt.. After a few mins of crying I would say a stern "NO" and she would generally stop and go back to sleep.

Good luck - I definitely don't miss those - sleep deprived what the hell am I doing - nights. :laugh:

[Dogsfevr]

Soft crates can be very daunting for pups hard to see,often warm with little air flow

All pups here sleep next to the bed until they have built confidence then as time goes they are moved to the chosen spot,some sleep outside in the kennels some in the house ,some on my bed & never had a pup object .

Stick crate next to your bed & make the effort to take pup out to toilet if it cries.

Generally our pups sleep through from 10 weeks because they are sound & content in there environment & there in a crate .

[Christina]

No hot water bottle please. Pup may chew it even if its wrapped up. They chew everything.

Hot water bottle should only be used for anything with no teeth.

You can get instant peace by letting the pup sleep on your bed with you. Works every time.

Otherwise just accept that it is natural for this to happen. No mummy, no litter mates, sleeping alone & not used to it, strange place, strange people, strange noises & its only a baby. Wouldn't you cry ?

I agree choose one place & that is it. Earplugs for both of you.

[betsy]

Hi! Congrats on the new puppy

I found DOL forums after 3 nights with a crying puppy, but it did get better quickly.

You will get lots of good advice here, just decide what will suit your household best.

I actually did have my pup sleep in the laundry, I taped up the door so there were no draughts coming in, so it was actually quite cosy.

There was enough room in the laundry for newspaper for accidents, but I managed with getting up once overnight for toiletting, and my pup was quite good overnight fairly quickly.

Some of my tips -

1. No napping after 7pm at all - play lots of games etc to keep you pup up until it is bedtime

2. I found a treat dispensing ball and put a bit of food in there for night-time (he is very food oriented). However, I might suggest no big meals late in the evening.

3. Some toys in bed

4. I put some of my worn clothes (ie with my smell) in his bed too.

5. I also changed beds a got one with 'walls' that was a bit more snug than the original bed.

6. I also left water available freely.

I'm sure things will get better soon ;) Good luck! And hope to see some cute puppy photos soon :D