Tricky Scenario At The Park

[Simply Grand]

If a parent allowed a blind child to wander alone in a dog park and said child startled my dog I would be concerned for the welfare of the child. My response to the parents would depend on their reaction.

In reality if a blind child walked into my path I would intervene, avoid the child tripping me or startling my dog and try to help the child back to wherever they were supposed to be.

Different situation to what the OP has posted about. And I don't think she is angry, just concerned.

[PuddleDuck]

I completely agree with the OP-it sounds like autism or autistic spectrum. One of the hardest things about these disorders can be because there is no outward appearance of this disability, people tend to look down on you for the child's behaviour. Yes, in this instance the mother should not have had the child at that sort of location. But it is hard to control kids with ASDs and you cop it because people just assume your kid is out of control. They often cannot help the behaviour, just like a blind person can't help accidentally getting in your pathway.

As I said, I totally agree that it was not a good place for the mum to be with the kid. But just some perspective regarding the behaviour from someone on the other side.

Sorry if I'm not making much sense. I'm very very tired!!!

[coogie]

Never mind

Edited February 20, 2012 by coogie

[pixie_meg]

I completely agree with the OP-it sounds like autism or autistic spectrum. One of the hardest things about these disorders can be because there is no outward appearance of this disability, people tend to look down on you for the child's behaviour. Yes, in this instance the mother should not have had the child at that sort of location. But it is hard to control kids with ASDs and you cop it because people just assume your kid is out of control. They often cannot help the behaviour, just like a blind person can't help accidentally getting in your pathway.

As I said, I totally agree that it was not a good place for the mum to be with the kid. But just some perspective regarding the behaviour from someone on the other side.

Sorry if I'm not making much sense. I'm very very tired!!!

i'm glad you gave another perspective. i'm very familiar with Autism and ASD. Parents of these kids get a bad wrap. Its a much harder job than the average kid. you can't tell an ASD kid "No" and expect they'll listen. discipline has to be handled differently, especially when you've got a child who looks a lot older than their emotional/social age. yes, in some situations the parents are doing the wrong thing and should be more in control, but thats easier said than done sometimes.

[Jumabaar]

If a blind child walked into your path, and inadvertently tripped you and startled your dog, would you be as angry?

What if any child wanted to play with someone working heavy machinery or sharp equipment or a hole in the ground? There are plenty of non doggie dangers that this child would need to be protected from. I think there is a perception by adults that dogs are not dangerous (and thats generally right). Heavy dangerous machinery used outside will generally have a kill switch but parents take that risk more seriously than a dog that doesnt have an off button!!

Also what if it were not agression but an injury that heavy handling could cause further damage? Does this make the senario any different as the child is in no danger but the dogs welfare is put at risk??

I generally dont blame the children (young ones) for coming near my dogs, but I do correct their behaviour and ensure that I try and educate their parents too. It is more difficult where children do not understand body language and I think that the parent in this case should have at least tried to involve themselves in the situation once they saw the OP trying to prevent the interaction even if they missed the child initially going toward the dog. It is nice to see the reaction of some of these kids when I can let them pat my therapy dog, even then I get them or their guardian to ask if they can touch her- just to try and make sure that its all safe and to try and set up a routine.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Jumabaar

[Rebanne]

so what happens when you're walking down the street with your aggressive dog and a kid on their way home from school(without a parent) decides they want to say hello? Sorry, but it is up to the dog owner to be responsible and know their dog and control it accordingly IMO.

Rubbish, what a load of rot. My dogs are not for public consumption. If I don't want some random stranger interacting with them then what I say goes. End of Story!

[raz]

so what happens when you're walking down the street with your aggressive dog and a kid on their way home from school(without a parent) decides they want to say hello? Sorry, but it is up to the dog owner to be responsible and know their dog and control it accordingly IMO.

So what happens if you're walking your dog on the other side of the street and the kid runs under the wheels of a car in his determination to pat the dog? autistic or not the kids in the situations described above should have been under adequate supervision.

To the OP, I think you did really well. The pushing and shoving would have been pretty unsettling with your little old dog on lead at your feet, especially when the mother/carer didnt seem to care an ounce that the kid was being aggro, and in a bloody carpark. I'm sick of parents letting their kids loose in shopping centre carparks and then want to blame 4WDrivers who cant see them behind their car as they back out of a bay. We have to take responsibility for our dogs. How about bloody parents keep their uncontrollable children on lead.

[minimax]

How about bloody parents keep their uncontrollable children on lead.

I think I just fell in love with you for this comment.

[raz]

Mini, I havent had my morning coffee yet so a bit cranky but I saw an out of control kid in the local carpark yesterday almost get skittled by a reversing car and the same thing - the mother was just so nonchalant by the event. Poor driver wasnt though. It's just an accident waiting to happen not to have kids under control in carparks, on the road, rushing up and startling strange dogs or jumping into shark infested waters. Some parents need to pull their heads out of the bex induced clouds they seem to live in

[minimax]

Mini, I havent had my morning coffee yet so a bit cranky but I saw an out of control kid in the local carpark yesterday almost get skittled by a reversing car and the same thing - the mother was just so nonchalant by the event. Poor driver wasnt though. It's just an accident waiting to happen not to have kids under control in carparks, on the road, rushing up and startling strange dogs or jumping into shark infested waters. Some parents need to pull their heads out of the bex induced clouds they seem to live in

And if the kid had been hurt but the car, the driver would have been blamed not parent/lack of supervision. Wonder if people would launch a campaign to get cars better trained so they didn't attack kids as they ran at them.

I haven't had coffee yet either, I should step away from the keyboard until I have :p

[JulesP]

Taking the dog out of the equation - what sort of person thinks it is okay for a child to shove a complete stranger? I am appalled that the adult didn't intervene.

Agree I would have been extremely pissed off if a child disabled or not shoved me hard. Extremely pissed off.

I did have a disabled child break free of the person they were with and rush at me to pat my dog. Luckily I had Brock who was fine with it. Not sure how Amber would have reacted. It isn't so much the fact it was a stranger it is the noise and way the child moved. Would have given most dogs a fright.

Had a very disabled child scream in excitement at my horse once, the child was in a wheel chair too and the horse was a nervy sort. Instead of getting a fright my horse let out this amazing whinny and moved towards the child. Was very interesting.

[LizT]

Thanks for everyones input. Not something I'd ever experienced but I guess it's good to know what can happen.

It was frustrating how little the mother did even when the boy was shoving me hard. Whole thing could have been avoided if she'd been with him to help him understand why he couldn't pat every dog.

My dog isn't a danger, he's going deaf and blind and startles easily.

If I had a stranger agressive dog which I couldn't handle I wouldn't be down at the local, very busy, park.

I have a 58 year old workmate, she tells me her 26 year old Autistic son grabs her and pounds her and hold her by the neck and shakes her when he gets angry. The problem is there is no pattern to his anger, sometimes when he is told no he deals with it other times he flies off the handle. She has been told by her support person that she is to put a lock on her bedroom door so she can have some time out.

Given the unpredictability the mother of the child should have been with him so as to try to avoid any unwarranted behaviour in public. She has a duty of care to her child AND to the public.

[Whippetsmum]

I'm thinking about the comments posted saying if you have a certain kind of dog (aggressive/fearful etc), you should be in absolute control.

The OP asked what would have been the consequence if the child had of been injured in some way, so I'm trying to clarify what reasonable control really means. Having reasonable control seems to be the issue when dogs get into trouble with council.

My question is: Does having control of your dog mean that despite any provocation that could be thrown at them, they won't be upset by it, or does having having control mean that you are aware of your dogs strengths and weaknesses and avoid as far as possible situations that may be problematic and minimise the risks if the situation is unavoidable? I am not asking about having a dog who is declared dangerous in a public place, but an average dog on lead.

[Odin-Genie]

if your dog is aggressive IT IS YOUR responsibility to stop it attacking anyone or anything. I'm so sick of reading people who suggest it is the responsibility of others to keep their dogs(or in this case child) away from your dogs in a public area, even worse if its an offlead area. Start taking responsibility for your lack of training and socialisation and keep others safe.

And I'm sick of people making excuses for their childrens and their own bad behaviour and lack of manners. Just because a dog is out in public does not give another person the right to touch it.

None of my Samoyeds are aggressive but if I don't want someone touching them it's my right to say no and excpet people to listen.

ever known or tried to control an autistic child? not that it is important whether the child was disabled or not, if your dog is so aggressive that you can't control the situation when a child comes up to it, then your dog needs to be muzzled in public.

and just for the record, i'm 100% opposed to BSL, i love APBT's, i own an SBT (and i'm more than happy for anyone to come up to my dog and say hello)

However difficult it may be to control a child (disability or not), it is still the parent's responsibility to control their children. Just as it is every dog owners' responsibility to control their dogs. Saying it is difficult is no excuse for bad behaviour either in kids or in dogs. I can't stand it when parents think that others should go out of their way because they can't control their kids.

The same rules apply to dogs and kids. If you can't control your kid, don't take the kid to places where the kid can harm/seriously inconvenience others.

My dogs are great with kids, but if an aggressive child tried to forcefully pat my dogs, I wouldn't be so polite. I will do anything to save my dogs from a situation where they might be blamed. The kid would get a serious earful.

[LizT]

Taking the dog out of the equation - what sort of person thinks it is okay for a child to shove a complete stranger? I am appalled that the adult didn't intervene.

Agree I would have been extremely pissed off if a child disabled or not shoved me hard. Extremely pissed off.

I did have a disabled child break free of the person they were with and rush at me to pat my dog. Luckily I had Brock who was fine with it. Not sure how Amber would have reacted. It isn't so much the fact it was a stranger it is the noise and way the child moved. Would have given most dogs a fright.

Had a very disabled child scream in excitement at my horse once, the child was in a wheel chair too and the horse was a nervy sort. Instead of getting a fright my horse let out this amazing whinny and moved towards the child. Was very interesting.

I had my eldest Cavalier at an Vet eye clinic when she was about a year old. She was sitting beside me and I needed to go to the toilet so I told her to "stay' and went. When I returned there was an intellectually disabled teenage girl sitting next to Bonnie and patting and talking to her. I was very surprised at how well Bonnie dealt with it, as, for a Cavalier, she really isn't all that good with strangers. She seemed to sense this child was special. :)

[Odin-Genie]

If a blind child walked into your path, and inadvertently tripped you and startled your dog, would you be as angry?

Yes, I will still be as angry as in OP's situation. In both cases the anger would be directed at the parent. Why should any parent allow a blind child to walk unsupervised and expect the rest of the world to take on the carer's job? Why should a parent allow a blind child to get so close to a strange dog?

[Odin-Genie]

And if the kid had been hurt but the car, the driver would have been blamed not parent/lack of supervision. Wonder if people would launch a campaign to get cars better trained so they didn't attack kids as they ran at them.

And that is a problem. Parents often get away without facing any consequences even when their negligence causes harm to the kids. They should be held more accountable.

[LizT]

Thanks for everyones input. Not something I'd ever experienced but I guess it's good to know what can happen.

It was frustrating how little the mother did even when the boy was shoving me hard. Whole thing could have been avoided if she'd been with him to help him understand why he couldn't pat every dog.

My dog isn't a danger, he's going deaf and blind and startles easily.

If I had a stranger agressive dog which I couldn't handle I wouldn't be down at the local, very busy, park.

Taking the dog out of the equation - what sort of person thinks it is okay for a child to shove a complete stranger? I am appalled that the adult didn't intervene.

Sadly some parents of reactive kids that have to deal with these things on a daily basis either give up or become desensitised. Not an excuse but a reason.

[Kavik]

The one time I have come across an autistic child on my walk with the dogs the child was pretty good and gentle, though unsupervised (a bit older than child in OP though - maybe 8? and at a park). I had Diesel who is my most bombproof dog and he was great but it was a bit unsettling as I hadn't encountered this with the dogs before and was unsure how to act re the interaction between him and the dog.

[Guest lavendergirl]

Lets not assume that the adult with the child was necessarily the mother - may have been a paid carer. Dogs are not public entertainment for random kids - I always block any child's approach until I can decide whether to allow any contact and only after I have told the child "gently only". People's attitude really astounds me at times - recently a woman bought a young child into the dog park (without a dog) and just let her wander around patting the dogs while she talked on the phone. Entertainment for the child I suppose - until it goes horribly wrong - luckily it did not that day.