Kavik Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Are there any differences in the style of tracking needed for ANKC tracking vs Schutzhund tracking? The Schutzhund rules regarding style are quite strict - intense with low nose etc and most of what I have read regarding sch tracking is using food drops in footsteps. I looked up ANKC tracking and found nothing on style in the rules, the one ANKC tracking day I was able to attend they just told me to walk off and put his favourite toy at the end. But as I haven't attended a tracking trial, I am not sure if there is a ruling on style, speed etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I have a limited understanding on schutzhund tracking, but I believe it is 'footstep' tracking, where the dog is heavily penalised for small deviations from the place where the track layer walked. In ANKC tracking, the dog has no time limit for completing the track and can deviate from the track. The dog should still follow the person's path (i.e. the dog shouldn't airscent), but if they happen to be scenting two metres to the side of the track, it's not a big deal. ANKC tracking dogs don't have to have their nose down to be considered tracking - it's up to the judge whether they consider the dog to be 'tracking' or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Thanks Leema, that is exactly the information I was looking for! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I'm not too sure, but on another forum we were talking about tracking and how in NZKC tracking the dog wears a harness (so they can pull into it), and a person into SchH said they start their dogs on prong collars because they want a controlled search. I know they are also strict about deep nose etc. What I have gathered from my week of training (lol) is that in NZKC tracking speed is not important (some dogs blast along, dragging owners behind them, while others go slowly and carefully), style isn't too important either... as long as they follow the track, take the corners, indicate the articles and get to the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I've been advised if I want to compete in both IPO and ANKC tracking then I definately need to train the IPO method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freundhund Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Years ago when tracking I taught my dog the IPO/Schutzhund method of tracking even though I was also going to do ANKC tracking. It was easier to teach the stricter method, so that I got quite good marks in tracking trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I started my girls on a flat collar to prevent deviation. Stuck close too, yes IPO/SCH allows no deviation off the track and you want their noses plastered to the ground. I also start with food and dragged footsteps so there are no gaps between the scent areas, it's one continuous line. Helps keep the dog nice and straight without turning their heads to try and pick up the next footstep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I was reading up on that over the weekend too and found the ANKC rules/info confusing. Schutzhund tracking is very precise. The dog needs to footstep track, calm, deep nose. There is no time limit but the dog needs to show commitment to the track. The articles are different - (not personal articles like I think ANKC have?) and the dog needs to indicate them very clearly (usually by dropping on the article). There is no person at the end of the track either. ANKC sounds to have a lot of diversions in the track / cross tracks too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 As I said SecretKei - ANKC tracking hmm having a person at the end is dependent on the state you track and what level track . Only track 1 and 2 here in SA will have a person at the end otherwise mostly its just a t-shirt/article left. The articles used on tracks are normally socks. They do have to indicate them but the method of indication isn't stipulated. I gather they are cracking down on the indication side of things so it is preferable to teach the dog something like a sit or drop. ANKC tracks do have cross tracks at the higher levels - either a known or an unknown. A few of us could never work out why a known person is considered "easier" then an unknown as most of the land we train on is heavily contaminated with cross tracks anyway so the dogs are mostly quite use to unknown cross tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Yes, in schutzhund the articles are mini! In ANKC tracks, the articles are normally socks/gloves/hankies/etc for the early levels, and the moves onto hard items (mobile phones, wallets, glasses, etc) at higher levels. These articles are normally visible to both dog and handler, but sometimes judges will put articles in 'hidey' places, especially on more advanced tracks. (I thought my bitch was going to flush out a rabbit on one track when sniffing around a log, but then she came out carrying a sock!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Are there any differences in the style of tracking needed for ANKC tracking vs Schutzhund tracking? The Schutzhund rules regarding style are quite strict - intense with low nose etc and most of what I have read regarding sch tracking is using food drops in footsteps. I looked up ANKC tracking and found nothing on style in the rules, the one ANKC tracking day I was able to attend they just told me to walk off and put his favourite toy at the end. But as I haven't attended a tracking trial, I am not sure if there is a ruling on style, speed etc. I only have experience with IPO tracking (the word Schutzhund is being phased out worldwide but it is the same). It is meant to be judged quite strictly because it is part of the overall temperament test of IPO. Yes, food is used to teach the association between crushed grass (footsteps) = reward. It is not present during competitions and dogs at that level don't have much food in their training tracks. As far as I understand there are big differences in IPO v's ANKC tracking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Yes, in schutzhund the articles are mini! 10cm x 3cm. can be made of leather, wood or carpet. quite often people train on smaller. Edited February 20, 2012 by Yesmaam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Thanks this has been very useful in figuring out the differences between them :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 LOL Ness, yes I was trying to understand but just getting more confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livertreats Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 For ANKC the dogs are required to have their noses down, dogs are not allowed to air scent, so I think you would find most judges do expect as the nose is down the head would lower than shoulders. As someone already stated there is no time requirement, but the dog must be deemed to be working, can be laying down resting. Most judges make allowances when it is warm for you to give your dog a drink and a short rest. Must have permission of the judge to take water with you. With most of our judges we show them the container of water and ask at the start and they allow you to give your dog a drink when you think its needed without asking again, however, we have one judge you must ask each time you want to give your dog a drink. A couple of years ago they changed the rules regarding articles, some dogs just gave a flick of the head and kept going and the handle would stop and pick up the article, if the judge was not watching very closely it was hard to know if the dog actually indicated it or not, so now the dog must STOP at the article, it can sit, stand or down at the article. Mine all stop and pick up the article and wait until I catch them up and take it from them. Always a very good idea once you have taken it from your dog to raise your hand with the article. In WA I would say 99% of the time in a trial the dog always finds a person at the end, if not then it must be a larger article that what is normally found on the track (socks) so usually a t/shirt. Articles on the track need to be a dark colour, no white or very light colour items. There are several method of teaching your dog to track, food drops, scent in a bottle (SIAB), motivational ( they start by seeing the person go off), to name a few, so use a method that both you and your dog are comfortable with, but always encourage the nose down. With all the methods you gradually phase out what you started with once the dog is confident and working well. sorry dont have much idea what happens at Schutzhund. Tracking sure is great fun sure you and your dogs will love it Kavik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Livertreats, it seems things are run a bit differently in WA. My bitch, Clover, does not have 'nose down' behaviour when tracking. She is a border terrier, so close to the ground, and actually looks like she's just going for a walk. :laugh: But she is tracking, she just doesn't find the need to put her nose down to find her track layer. My dog has a similar method, but does 'nose down' more often than Clover. In SA the judges have been surprised because they haven't seen dogs track like mine do, but both dogs earnt their TD in 3/3 tests. Clearly, the judges have thought my dogs were tracking despite non-nose-down body language - another point that shows that there is no clear style in ANKC tracking, just as long as the judge ascertains the dog is tracking. We do not require dogs to stop at the article, but some judges may. The dog must indicate the article and it's up to the judge to ascertain whether there was an indication or not. Obviously, a stop makes the article indication more obvious and is probably more desirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 For ANKC the dogs are required to have their noses down, dogs are not allowed to air scent, so I think you would find most judges do expect as the nose is down the head would lower than shoulders. As someone already stated there is no time requirement, but the dog must be deemed to be working, can be laying down resting. Most judges make allowances when it is warm for you to give your dog a drink and a short rest. Must have permission of the judge to take water with you. With most of our judges we show them the container of water and ask at the start and they allow you to give your dog a drink when you think its needed without asking again, however, we have one judge you must ask each time you want to give your dog a drink. A couple of years ago they changed the rules regarding articles, some dogs just gave a flick of the head and kept going and the handle would stop and pick up the article, if the judge was not watching very closely it was hard to know if the dog actually indicated it or not, so now the dog must STOP at the article, it can sit, stand or down at the article. Mine all stop and pick up the article and wait until I catch them up and take it from them. Always a very good idea once you have taken it from your dog to raise your hand with the article. In WA I would say 99% of the time in a trial the dog always finds a person at the end, if not then it must be a larger article that what is normally found on the track (socks) so usually a t/shirt. Articles on the track need to be a dark colour, no white or very light colour items. There are several method of teaching your dog to track, food drops, scent in a bottle (SIAB), motivational ( they start by seeing the person go off), to name a few, so use a method that both you and your dog are comfortable with, but always encourage the nose down. With all the methods you gradually phase out what you started with once the dog is confident and working well. sorry dont have much idea what happens at Schutzhund. Tracking sure is great fun sure you and your dogs will love it Kavik. Here are some differences between this and IPO tracking. In IPO, the dogs nose must be deep ie: on the ground and he must stay in the primary scent. The phrase we use is 'ploughing the field' Air scenting, casting or high nose is not allowed. The dog cannot be resting at any time during the track and must maintain a consistent speed. Restarting a dog if he stops will lose you points. If it is hot so be it, same conditions for everyone so no allowance for this. The dog must indicate the articles - most teach a drop so that the article is between the front legs. Head flick and move on would be considered a miss. Article size is 10cm x 3cm and doesn’t matter about colour as the dog is taught to recognise human scent on article. You can run into problems if you always train on objects that visually stand out and you would have to ask yourself what you are teaching…. ie: dark colour - seen it a hundred times when a dog passes something just off the track and the dog darts off course to look at it thus loosing points. This would be considered a distraction. During training we will sometimes deliberately set the dog up for this scenario. Most people I know use food to teach behaviour. Motivation teaches speed and is undesirable in IPO. Scent/ food drag is not tracking. All members in our club use basically the same method and if that isn’t suited to the dog then usually the dog isn’t good enough for IPO anyway. In the end, tracking in IPO is obedience and forms part of the overall temperament test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livertreats Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Leema, the rules state that "The dog must positively indicate the articles by either sitting, standing, downing, picking up or at least pausing to the satisfaction of the judge to obtain a pas"s". Is a pause not stopping? I think you will find each state slightly different, as one persons understanding of the rules to another person are usually different. One of my dogs also does retrieving and he know for tracking its nose down and retrieving he can air scent or nose down, which ever find the bird the quickest. :laugh: My first dog that I got to TCH really has his nose right down sometimes I wondered how comes his nose was not full of dirt etc. My second dog her head low but not as low as my first one and the one doing retrieving is about half way and has always tracked like that, I did tracking first before retrieving and for his first four test 4/4. Also now a TCH. All dogs are different. Edited February 20, 2012 by Livertreats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Yes, I guess a 'pause' and a 'stop' are pretty much the same. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astese Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 a pause or stop is not allowed anymore. The dog must indicate the article by either a sit/down or long stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now