Competition Nosework

[Nekhbet]

Is that why drug dogs are housed in kennels

You would be surprised what so called trustworthy people have in their houses :p

Hey Dasha, dont you work for AQIS?

That is information I got directly from AQIS in Victoria. Maybe I should write them a letter to let them know they're wrong, you want to help me PAX? You obviously have all the information at hand about the obvious misinformation they have passed along.

But what about the on/off switch for drive? Don't you think a dog would know a game can only be won if a game is "on"? Otherwise, what about protection training .... I mean, you can't reward a dog for biting someone when it wasn't commanded. ETA: Save for extenuating circumstances where the dog needs to use discretion ... but then, discretion is what the dog is trained for as well.

And what about a time a handler is threatened and cannot give the command for the dog to work in the case of a PP dog.

[Erny]

And what about a time a handler is threatened and cannot give the command for the dog to work in the case of a PP dog.

That's what I mean by "discrimination training". The PP dog is trained that a cue to taking a perp down is when the handler is being threatened/attacked. No?

[dasha]

Hey Dasha, dont you work for AQIS?

Forgot to add

Yes but I was only a Detector Dog Handler for 5 years so........................... may not know much about scent work LOL

The example I gave about not going crazy about those odours is still relevant to dogs in kennels. A detection dog cannot live in a sterile environment just so it doesn't get exposed to an odour as it can't be rewarded. Quarantine dogs also get exercised in grass yards, the walk in the park. Food reward dogs still get a meal at night. Play reward dogs also get a ball thrown for them at a park. Dogs can discriminate between work and play. They are asked to work and they DO NOT get a rewards for alerting to an odour if it is not in a work environment or search area. There are amnesty bins at the airport for people to put their food/fruit in before they get to the border. Dogs work near those bins but don't get rewarded if they take their handler to it. That would ask for trouble. They are not corrected for noticing it but if they walk past it they will be called past and then directed to search where required. If you rewarded a dog for finding the "mother ship" you will have problems. Doesn't reduce the dogs drive to find the same odours 50 metres away. A good trainer can get a dogs focus and ask for it to still do its job with that distraction. The handler still needs to be able to direct a search.

Detection and protection work are 2 different things so the idea that a dog may have to protect the handler without a command comes down to an instinctive response too and also needs to be controlled. Like anything when using a dogs natural inborn instincts, there is a point where instincts are what makes the dog do what it does but training needs to be override that instinct to be able to control the instinct and drive for the behaviour.

I have taken 2 VERY good detection dogs home when they retired and not once did they want to take me to my fruit in the fruit bowl, or to a stash of meat in the fridge or a bunch of flowers in the garden.

I agree with Erny about those boxes too. I think it more important that a dog is 110% confident on the odour, then work on different presentations, then different presentations in different locations. There is a big problem with controls in that video and I wouldn't be sure that the dog know the target odour in that scenario. I think he know which box has the odour of the scratch/chew marks on it as well as the ball he has already had come down that chute. JMO

The training for working blind and relying on the dog to tell us something is there, needs to be so thorough and accurate so that you can trust the dog will tell tell you what you want. Each target odour needs to have the same value and reward history if possible so that you know the dog is actively looking for each odour and will not ignore one in search for another as he has a better reward history for it. A dog also needs to able to alert to an odour in the presence of another at times and be able to relay the message to you that there is another one so not get distracted by playing or getting a food reward, but still be willing to alert to another odour. Yes they can do it. I frequently had my play reward dog having his reward on the conveyer belt when alerting to something in the mail. Even in the middle of a great tug if another mail item went past and he smelt another odour, he would drop the toy and go and dig again in order to get it again.

If he was searching and I put the toy on the belt, he would work over it and not touch it as he knew he needed to find something in order to get it. He really understood what the job was, how he would get the toy and really wanted to find stuff to get it. He was a xbred mutt from the pound. He had the best work ethic and was a very good dog.

If you have trained the odours right and presentations, you should trust your dog once you have asked him to search. Corrections reduce drive so you ignore wrong responses and reward correct ones. Simple

Edited February 17, 2012 by dasha

[Kavik]

I am certainly not saying you can't train another way - when I did the scent detection course in 2003, we didn't learn about reward from source and those reward boxes - instructors were Steve Austin Gary Jackson and some others, which is how I got the information to do the little bit I did. However I do think reward from source sounds like a very interesting way to train, and I hadn't thought about rewarding like that before. The guy doing the Leerburg DVD has some good credentials too. I may have a look at the DVD when it comes out.

And yes Dasha, to do scent detection work properly with the aim of using it in a real working environment is very complicated with making sure they are only going for target odor - that is what makes it so fascinating as we can't comprehend the awesomeness of their sense of smell! The other proofing is probably more important than whether you trained reward from source or not - you have to be able to trust the dog.

[dasha]

The reward fron source dog that was working in the field gradually got changed to a bridge and come to handler for a reward. Reward from source was messy, dog was handler dependent and her response would vary greatly depending on what the handler was doing. She was only a reward from source dog as she was supposed to be a toy dog but had limited toy drive but great food drive so handler changed her to food dog herself. Reward form source definitely kept this dog in field longer than if it was left as a toy dog.

Yes there is a lot of ways to teach every behaviour we teach our dogs. Just teaching scent detection, the most important thing is proofing the odour so that no matter where it is, in what presentation, your dog will find it when asked. It is very easy to cross train a dog onto something we don't even think about because we can't ask the dog how it knew to alert to that item. That box set up with an dig alert is contaminating that box and marking it as a target box every time. That dog and dogs after that, may very well look for the the box that has target odour paired with scratched wood as the target odour. For that to be a true thing, they need to also have a box that has scratch and bite marks without the target odour. They would also need to put a slobbered on ball in the other boxes as a distraction so it also wan't looking for the odour particles of its own used toy that would also be in that target box. So dogs very quickly can be looking for something else WITH the target odour in order to make them be sure. You need to be able to put pure target odour somewhere to make sure that dog is looking for target odour not what YOU think is the target odour.

Active response takes a lot more work as you need to introduce a lot more controls in your runs in order to make the test correct. Whether its competition nose work of field nose work, the scent is the most important, then the way it will be presented. ie in a formal layout, a broad search area, outside, inside or whatever.

[Kavik]

Looks like in competition you will only be able to do passive response, though they don't specify what it has to be . It will be hard to do the tests and not have contamination of the area.

Trying to make sure they are looking for the target odour and not something else with it is the difficult part since we don't really know what they are smelling! As with a lot of dog training, proofing is the hardest and most important part.

[Nekhbet]

I appreciate your detailed response Dasha, it's great to get information from people who have experienced the practical side as it's quite rare these days

my point was more for pet dogs starting scentwork. I have seen those dabbling in it and the dog takes it upon themselves to then tear up the kitchen/handbag. Considering owners would only be getting say, one class a week or fortnight, would it not be safer for the uninitiated to maybe just (at the beginning) not have the target odour within reach of the dog? It's a side effect of inexperience and you can't blame pet owners for that :laugh:

I understand dogs cannot live in a sterile environment, conversely you would not want the dog in an environment flooded with target odours and residues all over the place. Sensory complacency does happen in dogs as well, does it not?

You must have had a ball Dasha!

Edited February 17, 2012 by Nekhbet

[dasha]

For competition nose work, passive response is the best way to reduce contamination of the other items used for sniffing and control boxes.

A response can really be any change of behaviour that is trained and will be given every time to respond. However for competition it will probably be a sit. Makes it easier for the judge to be sure the dog gave a true response and has made a decision.

Hope it goes well for training when you get your DVD's

[Erny]

my point was more for pet dogs starting scentwork. I have seen those dabbling in it and the dog takes it upon themselves to then tear up the kitchen/handbag. Considering owners would only be getting say, one class a week or fortnight, would it not be safer for the uninitiated to maybe just (at the beginning) not have the target odour within reach of the dog?

This, in my humble opinion, is another reason why NOT teaching the dog 'handler-source' and instead teaching the dog to source the reward itself, could be a bigger problem. I think that for pet-dogs there will be the additional side-benefit of having the dogs gravitating to their handlers, rather than creating an idea of independence by sourcing away from their handlers. It is merely my opinion though as we all know there are numerous different ways of training and preference to one or another develops for individual reasons.

Thanks Dasha - I too enjoy your explanations. I've completed the Scent Detection Course run by NDTF. I think perhaps it was the same one as Kavik did (when it was a course of its own and went for a good 3 or 4 days, from memory). Apart from watching and doing some minimal work in assisting with scent detection training, I've not done much in the last few years. So it is very good to refresh the memory and test one's 'resolve' (for want of better words).

For the real-life working scent dog, I can very much appreciate where sourcing the reward at the target could provide the advantage of inspiring the dog where other training styles did not. A little bit like getting a food driven dog into tug by using a tug that contains food, and then weaning off once you'd managed to get the dog's instinct to bloom and an addiction for the enjoyment of the game itself had taken hold. Thanks for mentioning about that dog whose working life was extended for the benefit of having this additional way of training. Another for the trainer's tool-box :D.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Erny

[Kavik]

Hi Erny

Yes it sounds like the same course - a stand alone course that went for several days with different guest speakers and demos. I haven't really done any nosework since that little bit with Zoe. Dabbled a bit in tracking with tracking with Diesel. Getting them to use their nose is so interesting!

[Erny]

Hi Erny

Yes it sounds like the same course - a stand alone course that went for several days with different guest speakers and demos. I haven't really done any nosework since that little bit with Zoe. Dabbled a bit in tracking with tracking with Diesel. Getting them to use their nose is so interesting!

Yep - that's the one.

And I agree - watching them 'see' the invisible is fascinating and a marvel, all rolled into one .

[Lablover]

we started with active which is to dig it out from under things (hence why we didnt put things IN people's cars!), we will do passive at the school but I need to build a scent wall for that, makes the job a heck of a lot easier ... just finished the A Frame and Walkover today in the school colours covered in paint now lol

so this type of thing but the ball launcher will be a well timed volunteer :laugh: I don't mind active alert dogs, but the scent wall is not for that, and I dont thing too many owners would be happy with a well rewarded active alert dog tearing up their house if the chosen substance accidentally enters the premises

Nekhbet, are the youtube's Australian?

[Lablover]

This youngster is one of my breedings, a few of her siblings are with AQIS.

Dasha, are you still an AQIS handler?

[Erny]

Bred for Doggy Dancing extraordinaire? (sp?)

Great photo.

Great breed lines.

You have this girl,LL?

Sorry to Kavik for the

Edited February 18, 2012 by Erny

[Lablover]

Bred for Doggy Dancing extraordinaire? (sp?)

Great photo.

Great breed lines.

You have this girl,LL?

Sorry to Kavik for the

Yes, Erny I have this rather athletic girl. I am very encouraged and happy with the litter.

Back to topic, I wonder of the difficulty of scent detection through the dog clubs. Will be interesting to observe. But then again, I even like sheep herding competitions. Tragic working dog devoteeeeeeee, I am. ha!

[Kavik]

I agree, doing scent detection through a club could be tricky re contamination of the area etc. Wonder if there are any near my parents, I could check them out next time I visit the USA :laugh: Would love to see a competition, just to see how they run it. From the results website, a wide variety of breeds competing.

Or maybe just go visit Nekhbet - would be closer anyway :laugh:

I only played around with it at home.

[dasha]

Thanks, glad I can be of use at times LOLLablover, I am not working as a handler at present but am still with AQIS at the quarantine station. Are any of your dogs in the Sydney unit?

In regards to training scent work in a club environment, contamination is not really the problem to worry about. It would be the experience and knowledge of the trainer first and foremost. Like any club exercise, most of the training is done as homework at home. Clubs would be hard as who would be the one to set targets to give permeation time? All dogs learn at different rates so how much target to put in a box. Some may need HEAPS of target but others may have progressed to a lower level.

The area is fine, I mean unless you are trying to find soil as a target and you run your trial on a grass arena, that would be silly but you could use the carpark.

Dogs have better noses than we think so other smells are just part of life to a dog and it is the dogs job to pick an odour that means something out of all other odours in life anyway. I mean a male dog can pick the scent of a bitch on heat miles away amongst the smells of neighbours BBQ smells, car fumes blah blah so it really is a matter of isolating an odour that means something to the dog.

Dogs that work for big departments are often trained in batches so they are all learning odours in the presence of other dog smells anyway whether its in a shed or paddock.

[Kavik]

Starting up a new sport at a club is hard as nobody really knows what they are doing, or the best way to train. Treiball is starting up here, people are still experimenting with how to train it, even how to start the training, and trying to figure out what the higher levels of competition should be like - are directionals needed, obstacles etc.

[Lablover]

Thanks, glad I can be of use at times LOLLablover, I am not working as a handler at present but am still with AQIS at the quarantine station. Are any of your dogs in the Sydney unit?

My other two boys have been used in the breeding program also. I know some are (Customs) operational and a couple of resulant progeny, used in their breeding program as studs (as are the bitches). I should imagine they remain in Victoria for easier access. I think I am right...I will check their location if you like, next telephone call or visit.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Lablover

[Lablover]

Dasha, have you seen any in NSW who look like this: