How To Stop Rough Play

[Miranda]

Initially we had no idea that what he was doing was a sign of dominance, leaning against our legs, sleeping in doorways where we had to step over him, allowing his to be in front of us on the lead ect. We now know to push him out of the way if he leans on us, shuffle so he moves out of our way instead of stepping over him, ensure he is always beside or behind us on the lead…

Genuinely dominant dogs are few and far between in my experience, most dogs will simply do what works for them if they're allowed to get away with it and I think that's what Bear is doing. All my dogs do the things you mention from time to time, they also get on the furniture, eat before I do and do lots of other things that aren't recommended :laugh: However none of them are dominant and when I tell them to do something they do it. Dominance is a much overused word IMO and half the trainers who harp on about it have never met a truly dominant dog in their lives.

Have you tried NILIF with Bear? I found the Triangle of Temptation also worked well with a particularly cocky young male I own when he was going through adolescence and thought he was it and a bit.

[aussielover]

Totally agree Jumabaar.

The behaviours you are describing are not necessarily those of a dominant dog and some of them sound completely normal. I know my dog would not move from her sleeping position unless she had to...

Problems can arise when the dog challenges you if you try to move it/ step over it or if it growls at you when you push him away- but I gather these things aren't happening?

I would advise you to relax a little- you have not failed your dog, the fact that you have found this forum and are asking for advice is proof of that! I don't think your dogs behaviour is particularly dominant from what you have described.

I think you should enjoy your dog for what they are- young, active, intelligent, playful dogs. I would advise you to go to an obedience or agility club with your Keeshond- they are active working dogs that like to be challenged, and perhaps this would help sort out some of his issues and help develop a better training bond between you both.

When they look like they are playing too rough, simple separate them until they calm down.

If you're still really concerned then see another trainer- as others have suggested Erny or Cosmolo on DOL are well respected :)

[Bear&Duke]

I will google NILIF now, it sounds really good. The only time Bear really has to 'work' for something is his dinner. He must sit and wait to be released before eating, it's about the only thing he does for me everytime so thats one thing i'm doing right.

We are crate training Duke so maybe I should also get a crate for Bear to help with his training too.

[Kavik]

I did the same as Jumabaar when my lot got too silly/rough with play - in the crates until everyone calmed down. Kaos and Diesel are best mates (now nearly 6yrs and 8yrs) and love to play together, when they were younger things could sometimes get a bit rough.

[Aidan3]

Initially we had no idea that what he was doing was a sign of dominance, leaning against our legs, sleeping in doorways where we had to step over him, allowing his to be in front of us on the lead ect. We now know to push him out of the way if he leans on us, shuffle so he moves out of our way instead of stepping over him, ensure he is always beside or behind us on the lead… I think this is addressing the actual issue not perceived, but honestly I don’t know anymore what is right and what is wrong.

I think you are addressing the actual problem there, but perhaps there are other ways to address this sort of problem that give you a bit more control and take some of the confrontation out of it? For e.g, leaning against your legs is a pretty good way to get some attention, so if you ignore it the behaviour soon starts to disappear. Training him to sleep on his bed (or at least to go to it when asked) is a good way to address the doorway issue (and the leaning on you) because you are telling him what you want him to do instead. I couldn't care less if my dogs walked in front of me, so long as they weren't pulling on the leash. It's not a power-play.

I'd start here: http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page26/page10/ The "Levels" have good instructions for teaching a dog to go to a mat or crate and that's something you can use a lot, for all sorts of things (including breaking up play BEFORE it starts to get too rough, once he gets really good at going to his mat/crate/coming when called).

I feel like we have completely failed him other than keeping him well fed and safe in a good home that genuinely cares for him.

More than many get, and no-one comes knowing what to do already. You have to learn, and asking questions is a good place to start :)

[Bear&Duke]

Problems can arise when the dog challenges you if you try to move it/ step over it or if it growls at you when you push him away- but I gather these things aren't happening?

I would advise you to relax a little- you have not failed your dog, the fact that you have found this forum and are asking for advice is proof of that! I don't think your dogs behaviour is particularly dominant from what you have described.

I think you should enjoy your dog for what they are- young, active, intelligent, playful dogs. I would advise you to go to an obedience or agility club with your Keeshond- they are active working dogs that like to be challenged, and perhaps this would help sort out some of his issues and help develop a better training bond between you both.

When they look like they are playing too rough, simple separate them until they calm down.

If you're still really concerned then see another trainer- as others have suggested Erny or Cosmolo on DOL are well respected :)

No he never growls at us or any other animals. He's too happy-go-lucky to do that! He will move if I make him, without too much fuss.

I think obedience or agility classes would be a good idea too, we took him to training but he was very young and being in the heat of summer he really struggled with it. He just wanted to lie in the shade and cool down. I think the trainer thought we were unmotivated but we were simply struggling with him and didn't know what to do. We asked a lot of questions until she snapped at us one too many times so we shut up and did our best. I have heard the southern river dog training is quite good so i'll give that a go.

Thanks for your help!

[dee lee]

Wow, I am having bad deja vous about what your trainer said!

From experience- DO NOT take your dog to the dog park to learn it's place!

I was inexperienced with headstrong dogs & had a young staffy cross that I got very similar advice about. My "trainer" felt she needed to become more socialized & would learn to behave from older dogs at the park (bearing in mind she was around 6 months at this stage).

At the park she learnt from the other dogs alright- they taught her how to bully & to fight back! It was the worst thing I could have done & she subsequently ended up with very bad behavioral issues.

It sounds like you are doing the right thing with your two, hopefully your strategy will work out in the long run.

But do get a new trainer- yours sounds as idiotic as my previous one!

Oh another thing... I owned a Keeshond when I was a teenager- such sweet happy dogs! If Bear is anything like my girl, he will mature into a well balanced lovely dog. :D

[aussielover]

No he never growls at us or any other animals. He's too happy-go-lucky to do that! He will move if I make him, without too much fuss.

I think obedience or agility classes would be a good idea too, we took him to training but he was very young and being in the heat of summer he really struggled with it. He just wanted to lie in the shade and cool down. I think the trainer thought we were unmotivated but we were simply struggling with him and didn't know what to do. We asked a lot of questions until she snapped at us one too many times so we shut up and did our best. I have heard the southern river dog training is quite good so i'll give that a go.

Thanks for your help!

Definitely go to another club! Maybe ask for some recommendations in the training forum? Or maybe in the WA thread (if u do a search you should see there is a thread for WA dolers).

I actually know quite a few Keeshonds, they are gorgeous and are very good at obedience and agility. Bear is such an appropriate name for one!!! Love it

[Red Fox]

but he just keeps challenging in different ways. Walking in front of us, jumping up, leaning on us, not listening, barking ect.

That just tells me he isn't well trained yet :) It becomes unnecessarily difficult to train a dog if you suspect he's challenging you, you stop addressing the actual problem (not listening, jumping up) and chase after the imagined problem (challenging, status-seeking) instead. A spade is a spade.

I definitely agree Aidan2 that he isn't trained yet, far from it actually. I don't think we are chasing the imagined problem, but I could be wrong. Initially we had no idea that what he was doing was a sign of dominance, leaning against our legs, sleeping in doorways where we had to step over him, allowing his to be in front of us on the lead ect. We now know to push him out of the way if he leans on us, shuffle so he moves out of our way instead of stepping over him, ensure he is always beside or behind us on the lead… I think this is addressing the actual issue not perceived, but honestly I don't know anymore what is right and what is wrong. I feel like we have completely failed him other than keeping him well fed and safe in a good home that genuinely cares for him. But we are trying our hardest to turn it around, please if you have any suggestions let me know as we will try anything.

You've not failed your dog. If anything you are just over-complicating things in trying to get it 'right'. Most people do . Dog training is not difficult, or magic. You only need to keep things simple and establish clear rules and boundaries - black and white.

I've posted some links for you in your other thread

[Nushie]

Do they have any quiet time together? Or is it everytime they get to be together they play and mess around.

I would be tying to enforce some relaxed time that they can spend together, maybe at night when watching tv. Just so that they learn they can be in each others presents without the energy levels through the roof.

When you do intervene and seperate them, dont let them play again until they have both settled.

I think that they will grow out of it.

[Kitt]

I feel like we have completely failed him other than keeping him well fed and safe in a good home that genuinely cares for him. But we are trying our hardest to turn it around, please if you have any suggestions let me know as we will try anything.

No! You haven't failed him! Failing him would mean leaving him in the backyard and ignoring him because he's too much trouble.

Instead, you're actively seeking assistance from multiple sources in order to give him the best chance of having suitable interactions with your other dog.

Keep us updated :)

[Salukifan]

Don't despair.

Your dog isn't broken and the issues you confront now can be worked on with the assistance of a decent, knowledgeable trainer.

I'll confess to being gobsmacked that ANY trainer could suggest unknown dogs in a public dog park as a method of teaching your dog "his place". That is just plain dangerous and it certainly isn't going to help you sort out the issue at home with your younger dog.

Rest assured that dogs don't spend their days plotting to overthrow us (that's what cats do LOL). I think the idea of unwanted dog behaviour as "dominance" and the idea that we should be constantly on the alert for signs of 'dominance' are frankly, a total crock. Yes, dominant dogs exist but we don't generally create such issues by allowing them to walk through doors infront of us etc. Dogs don't get on the couch because they think they're the boss.. they do it because its comfortable. If they get off when we tell them to and don't stop US from getting on it, where's the 'dominance'???

Dogs pull on the lead because we let them. They jump on us because they're excited and we need to teach them that it's not acceptable. Its that simple. These are owner created problems and probably some of the easiest to resolve.

What dogs need are boundaries, routine and leadership. That can be done partly by training, partly by insisting and enforcing certain behaviours and certainly by rewarding behaviours that you want.

I think regular obedience training is a really good idea but I think that an in home visit from a decent dog trainer (not your current one) is the best way to go to sort out the pack issues at home.

Sounds to me like you've got a pretty full on adolescent and you need to call in the canine equivalent of Super Nanny to help get things back on track. I suspect you'll be pleasantly surprised at how easily that will be achieved once you have some good help.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Telida Whippets

[Christina]

It doesn't sound to me like any of your "issues" are problems. They are all normal dog behaviour. You are worrying so much & trying to get it all so right.

There is no exact right.

If you want your dog to sleep on the beds or furniture that is fine.

As long as they get down when you tell them.

If your dog walks ahead of you on lead that is fine.

As long as you are not being dragged or pulled.

Your dog can walk through the door ahead of you. It does not mean it is boss & uncontrollable.

AS long as it will wait if you tell it to.

Pups & adult dogs play rough sometimes & its not always the adult dog that is the pest. Sometimes you can tell the adult dog to back off & the pup comes back & pesters it more.

They need to be allowed to sort it out, without damage, because they can't both be top dog.

The pup challenges & sees what it can get away with so if it looks like its going too far seperate but don't tell the older one off all the time.

Either just seperate or tell them both off.

Having a multi dog household here & litters of pups too I always supervise young ones with the adults until they are 6 months old & sometimes a bit longer depending. They all get too rough in play at some stage. I clap hands to get their attention & say too rough & seperate the naughty ones if they don't stop instantly.

They will be fine in the end. Just use common sense & have confidence.