How To Stop Rough Play

[Bear&Duke]

I posted this topic in the puppy forum but it maybe be better placed here:

I have an 18 month old male de-sexed Keeshond Bear and a four month old male Cocker Spaniel puppy Duke who seem to really love each other but Bear plays rough and it scares me. Duke loves Bear, they are always trying to get at each other and seem to really enjoy each other company but I need to teach Bear to play softer with Duke.

At times they are ok and will play nicely, taking turns being submissive; mostly Duke is on his back but sometimes Bear lets Duke climb all over him while he’s on his back. But Bear can get really excited and doesn’t listen when Duke is crying because he’s hurting him. I am so scared about the size difference; Bear is 20kg, Duke only 6kg and I wonder if I intervene too much. As soon as Duke yelps I will pull Bear away and tell him No in a stern voice and then let him play with Duke again but within minutes Duke will be crying again. Bear also seems to pick on Duke ears and will be mouthing them and pulling them.

Now Bear has other behavioral issues which we are dealing with a trainer as he is overly dominant with us and he seems to be coming along quite well with that training but it doesn’t seem to be applying to his play time with Duke.

Their play is ALWAYS supervised at the moment due to Bear’s inability to back off when Duke tells him to but I need to know how to get him past this rough play so they can spend time unsupervised and eventually spend the day together outside while my partner and I are at work. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Whippetsmum]

Maybe video the behaviour and show it to the person you are already working with. Have a look at the video with them to pick up if the play is escalating and when and if and how to intervene.

I used to worry about my 2 playing rough, but it was always the older boy who took damage- nothing serious, just a few scratches, and once or twice a nick on the ear from a sharp puppy tooth. In our case they were the same breed, and the play seemed and sounded very rough, but tails were wagging, body langauge was in fun mode, there was a silliness in the behaviour that we could see from both that showed us it was just play.

[dandybrush]

the best medicine is time. continue the supervised play, separate them when u cant supervise and one day when duke is a bit older i think it will just work out, they will be more bonded, duke will prob be able to tell bear off a bit better etc.

i dont really think you have anything to worry about. but definatley do separate them when you hear pup cry, do u use time outs on bear? maybe when u hear duke cry you could time out bear and that could teach him not to push duke to crying point in a game just an idea

[Bear&Duke]

Thanks Whippetsmum & Dandybrush, they are some good ideas. The trainer has also suggested a dog park I can take Bear to which has excellent dog owners who will let their dogs put Bear in his place. The problem where I live is people won't allow their dogs to tell Bear off when he's being too rough so he thinks he rules over everyone

I do give Bear time out but it seems to rev him up more rathern than calm him down. I realise I need to keep the play going so that they bond and if i leave it too long between play times it seems to get worse as it's still a novelty for them to play together. I don't want Duke to be afraid of other dogs so it's such a fine line between being healthy and unhealthy.

I do appreciate your advice, thank you!

[Miranda]

Thanks Whippetsmum & Dandybrush, they are some good ideas. The trainer has also suggested a dog park I can take Bear to which has excellent dog owners who will let their dogs put Bear in his place. The problem where I live is people won't allow their dogs to tell Bear off when he's being too rough so he thinks he rules over everyone

Very dangerous suggestion, if Bear decides that he won't be 'put in his place' you could have a fight on your hands. Taking Bear to a dog park and allowing him to play rough with strange dogs is a disaster waiting to happen.

[Sandra777]

Thanks Whippetsmum & Dandybrush, they are some good ideas. The trainer has also suggested a dog park I can take Bear to which has excellent dog owners who will let their dogs put Bear in his place. The problem where I live is people won't allow their dogs to tell Bear off when he's being too rough so he thinks he rules over everyone

Very dangerous suggestion, if Bear decides that he won't be 'put in his place' you could have a fight on your hands. Taking Bear to a dog park and allowing him to play rough with strange dogs is a disaster waiting to happen.

x2!!!!!!!

That is shocking advice from a trainer :

[Greytmate]

Thanks Whippetsmum & Dandybrush, they are some good ideas. The trainer has also suggested a dog park I can take Bear to which has excellent dog owners who will let their dogs put Bear in his place. The problem where I live is people won't allow their dogs to tell Bear off when he's being too rough so he thinks he rules over everyone

Very dangerous suggestion, if Bear decides that he won't be 'put in his place' you could have a fight on your hands. Taking Bear to a dog park and allowing him to play rough with strange dogs is a disaster waiting to happen.

Yes, it sounds unusual for a trainer to suggest any behaviour modification technique that involves putting a dog in a situation that you can't control. Dangerous.

[Bear&Duke]

Oh ok, gosh I have no idea anymore what to do

Maybe I should take him up to my friends place again, her mum is a breeder and she has done agility with her Golden Retriever before and knows a lot about dogs. Her dog Bailey is very good at telling Bear to calm down and get out of his face and Bear listens to him really well. Although that doesn't seem to transfer on to other dogs, he just knows not to mess with Bailey. Bear doesn't seem aggressive (but as you would have guessed I am not dog expert), just full on and doesn't understand to calm down and not play so rough.

[claireybell]

I have a cocker spaniel and a beagle, they are similar in height but my cocker is only 9kg and the beagle is 20kg (she's on a diet). They have what we call frisky time. Every night they go mental. Running round the yard like headless chooks. More often than not my cocker is on her back with the beagle pulling her ear or her leg. When they were pups the beagle would always go too far with the play and I would intervene. But one day out of the blue the cocker told the beagle to back off, the beagle then came and hid under my legs while my cocker tried desperately to start play back up again. Since that day the beagle knows when to stop. It took a while for them to sort it out but they got there. If you were to come to my house you would presume the beagle is boss but that's not true. My silly, happy go lucky cocker is the ruler of the roost. She lets the beagle have her way until a certain point, then she does a back off growl and my beagle comes to me for cuddles because she got told off! Lol. It's amazing to watch the chemistry between my two girls.

I would maybe seek advice from a different trainer. Take a video as suggested. Your trainers idea of letting Bear work it out with strange dogs at a dog park is disastrous and down right dangerous. I would contact Cosmolo on here if I were you

[Miranda]

I have heard good reports about a dog trainer/behaviourist in WA called Kathy Kopellis McLeod, perhaps you could contact her? I would be keeping your two dogs apart, only allow supervised play and the moment it escalates separate them. You have two male dogs and I realise that Bear is desexed and that you will also desex Duke when he's old enough, but if you continue allow to Bear to think that he rules the roost and one day Duke has a go at him to 'put him in his place', Bear may decide to retaliate just to keep his position as top dog. I think you need help to manage Bear and sooner rather than later, because at the moment he obviously thinks that he's the boss of everyone and everything.

[Kavik]

I personally wouldn't rely on other dogs to tech Bear how to play nicely with other dogs - as that could lead to a fight. At the very best they may learn not to mess with some dogs but quickly learn which dogs they have it over - very good at reading body language.

What about getting in a trainer to show you how to teach him to play more gently if that is what you want?

[Bear&Duke]

Thanks everyone for the advice, I really appreciate your support. Claireybell it's good to know your two sorted them selves out, maybe once Duke gets a bit bigger and older he will feel confident to stand up for himself. I can't see Bear retaliating against Duke, even with us he has never ever snapped or growled, but he just keeps challenging in different ways. Walking in front of us, jumping up, leaning on us, not listening, barking ect. Although mighty frustrating he’s never aggressive. I will take your advice though and not allow Bear to interact with other dogs until we get him under control, if that day ever comes. Unfortunately I feel we are very out of our depth here and even though we spend a lot of time each morning & night training Bear there hasn’t been much of an improvement. He now knows when he’s on lead he must behave as we can easily correct him, but the second the lead is off he’s up to his normal antics.

I have heard about Kathy through other DOL members, and once the finances allow I will get her in to help us. Unfortunately we spent a lot of money on a franchise trainer and although they have some good advice, it seems some of it is questionable.

I really do thank you for all your wonderful advice, I will try anything to get our household stress free and back to ‘normal’.

[Gretel]

<but he just keeps challenging in different ways. Walking in front of us, jumping up, leaning on us, not listening, barking ect.>

He is a spitz. I don't know Kees but have you talked to other owners about typical behaviours of the breed?

[huski]

I don’t think they need to bond per se, I just want my dogs to live together without any issues, I personally prefer that they don’t develop a high value for one another, so I don’t really care if my dogs ‘bond’ as long as they behave appropriately with one another.

I totally agree with what everyone else has said regarding allowing other dogs to teach him how to play appropriately. IMO that is fraught with risk and it sounds like he already has too high a value for other dogs. Allowing more free play will only teach him other dogs are more rewarding. I definitely think you need to see a more reputable behaviourist.

I would be separating them and only allowing them to interact under supervision, I would also intercept *before* play starts to get too rough.

[Aidan3]

but he just keeps challenging in different ways. Walking in front of us, jumping up, leaning on us, not listening, barking ect.

That just tells me he isn't well trained yet :) It becomes unnecessarily difficult to train a dog if you suspect he's challenging you, you stop addressing the actual problem (not listening, jumping up) and chase after the imagined problem (challenging, status-seeking) instead. A spade is a spade.

[persephone]

The trainer has also suggested a dog park I can take Bear to which has excellent dog owners who will let their dogs put Bear in his place.

That is a very disappointing thing to read , and certainly not what I would have expected from a 'professional'.

How many posts do we see on here where dogs in dog parks have attacked dogs/pups ?

Bear is naturally larger and older ..and he already 'knows his place' ..it is above a baby puppy .

Being a puppy himself, he will naturally gravitate to floppy ears etc .. and perhaps does need work on bite inhibition that he missed out on while at the breeders .

I hope that very soon you can obtain the services of another trainer .

[Bear&Duke]

but he just keeps challenging in different ways. Walking in front of us, jumping up, leaning on us, not listening, barking ect.

That just tells me he isn't well trained yet :) It becomes unnecessarily difficult to train a dog if you suspect he's challenging you, you stop addressing the actual problem (not listening, jumping up) and chase after the imagined problem (challenging, status-seeking) instead. A spade is a spade.

I definitely agree Aidan2 that he isn't trained yet, far from it actually. I don't think we are chasing the imagined problem, but I could be wrong. Initially we had no idea that what he was doing was a sign of dominance, leaning against our legs, sleeping in doorways where we had to step over him, allowing his to be in front of us on the lead ect. We now know to push him out of the way if he leans on us, shuffle so he moves out of our way instead of stepping over him, ensure he is always beside or behind us on the lead… I think this is addressing the actual issue not perceived, but honestly I don’t know anymore what is right and what is wrong. I feel like we have completely failed him other than keeping him well fed and safe in a good home that genuinely cares for him. But we are trying our hardest to turn it around, please if you have any suggestions let me know as we will try anything.

[Bear&Duke]

<but he just keeps challenging in different ways. Walking in front of us, jumping up, leaning on us, not listening, barking ect.>

He is a spitz. I don't know Kees but have you talked to other owners about typical behaviours of the breed?

No i haven't Gretel, i don't know anyone else who owns a spitz breed but I will head in to the Spitz forum to see if they can help out, thats a great idea thank you.

[Jumabaar]

Thanks Whippetsmum & Dandybrush, they are some good ideas. The trainer has also suggested a dog park I can take Bear to which has excellent dog owners who will let their dogs put Bear in his place. The problem where I live is people won't allow their dogs to tell Bear off when he's being too rough so he thinks he rules over everyone

I do give Bear time out but it seems to rev him up more rathern than calm him down. I realise I need to keep the play going so that they bond and if i leave it too long between play times it seems to get worse as it's still a novelty for them to play together. I don't want Duke to be afraid of other dogs so it's such a fine line between being healthy and unhealthy.

I do appreciate your advice, thank you!

Just on the time out- when my dogs go into time out they don't come back out until they are calm. If they start bouncing again as soon as they are out then they go back into time out!

I use a crate for my time out sessions- these time outs are not seen as punishment by the dogs because I have done lots of crate training so they see the crate as a fun place to be! They eventually learnt that really silly play means that they end up in the crate so they have stopped being so silly because they want to keep playing!

Instead of the dog park you could try an obedience club. You don't need Duke to say hello to the other dogs you need to get him to learn to be in control around them and not think that seeing another dog means its a free for all. By teaching him to listen to you in the presence of other dogs and that he doesn't always get to go play you might have more vocal control over Duke so YOU can control how rough he plays and be in control instead of relying on other dogs to regulate his behaviour. AKA being able to recall him in any situation will allow you to do time outs and also give you a chance to reward good behaviour!

I agree that you need to talk to a new trainer who talks more about you being a good leader for Duke and guiding him towards making the right decisions rather than relying on other people/dogs to do the training.

Another 'in the mean time' training method might be NILIF (nothing in life is free). Which you should be able to google this. It means that they have to DO something to get anything they want. This gives you lots of opportunities to reward good behaviour and allows you to put in some boundaries so Duke is not confused about what is and isn't allowed. If he wants a toy he has to sit calmly, if he wants his dinner you can get him to drop etc.

[Jumabaar]

but he just keeps challenging in different ways. Walking in front of us, jumping up, leaning on us, not listening, barking ect.

That just tells me he isn't well trained yet :) It becomes unnecessarily difficult to train a dog if you suspect he's challenging you, you stop addressing the actual problem (not listening, jumping up) and chase after the imagined problem (challenging, status-seeking) instead. A spade is a spade.

I definitely agree Aidan2 that he isn't trained yet, far from it actually. I don't think we are chasing the imagined problem, but I could be wrong. Initially we had no idea that what he was doing was a sign of dominance, leaning against our legs, sleeping in doorways where we had to step over him, allowing his to be in front of us on the lead ect. We now know to push him out of the way if he leans on us, shuffle so he moves out of our way instead of stepping over him, ensure he is always beside or behind us on the lead… I think this is addressing the actual issue not perceived, but honestly I don’t know anymore what is right and what is wrong. I feel like we have completely failed him other than keeping him well fed and safe in a good home that genuinely cares for him. But we are trying our hardest to turn it around, please if you have any suggestions let me know as we will try anything.

These to me are not dominance issues- I like my dogs to remain down if I step over them/move around them because it makes it easier with my elderly grandparents to move around without a dog jumping out of the way. They sleep in doorways so they can follow me if I leave the room and because there is usually a nice cool draft there.

Pulling on lead is because there is fun stuff in front and leaning in mine means they want a pat. They generally have to sit or paw to get the pat because I know they want it so I make them work for it.

I don't think you have a dominant dog- I think you have a dog that doesn't know the rules. Don't worry so much about what is/isnt dominant and look at what behaviour suits and doesn't suit you. Pulling on lead doesn't suit me so I teach my dogs to walk on a loose lead but I don't care where they are in front, behind or beside so long as the lead is loose.