sandgrubber Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Read a shocking blog post about the Wesminster (US equivalent of Crufts) dogshow invites. I'm cutting and pasting a short version . . . would encourage reading the whole thing at http://www.astraean....estminster.html (includes pedigrees and pictures . . . backing the inbreeding claim). There are 5 Rough Collies invited to compete at the 2012 Westminster Dog show. Those dogs are: CH Colebrae After Midnight GCH CH Clarion Ribbon In The Sky GCH CH Sylvan Argent It's All About Me GCH CH Taliesin Fashion Forward GCH CH Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication The final dog and bitch are also the top two Rough Collies of 2011: Besides their stellar show careers, these two dogs share the same matador sire, Wyndlair Avalanche, the blind and deaf intentionally bred double merle stud dog. [The link goes to a profile of Wyndlair Avalance . . . who isn't a CH because he's blind and can't manage the show ring]. Both of these dogs are highly inbred with shallow COIs approaching 20%. You'll also notice that both dogs are completely inbred on the same dog at the great grandfather level, the popular sire Southland's Bowen Island. In both dogs' pedigrees, Bowen is the only great grandfather. This isn't as obvious on a text pedigree, but on a visual one, there is a great degree of pedigree collapse. Do others find this disturbing? It kinda puts me off the AKC . . . I was already pretty dubious about the show ring as a decider of dog quality. Edited February 12, 2012 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 COI doesn't worry me in the least. I have a had a dog that was higher than that, a lovely example of the breed. Are the two Collies entered deaf and blind ? If not, then there's nothing to talk about. Now the big question is, do I believe that link and the obvious smear campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 COI doesn't worry me in the least. I have a had a dog that was higher than that, a lovely example of the breed. Are the two Collies entered deaf and blind ? If not, then there's nothing to talk about. Now the big question is, do I believe that link and the obvious smear campaign. Not a smear campaign, unless you believe that anyone who argues for maintaining diversity is out to smear people who inbreed. A science-oriented blogger with a biology background and a deep commitment to Border Collies. . . .which extends to other herding breeds. He is deeply worried by the popular sire effect. The two collies were not entered, they were invited to enter. Creme de la creme. They aren't blind or deaf, but they were both sired by a dog who is blind and deaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 COI doesn't worry me in the least. I have a had a dog that was higher than that, a lovely example of the breed. Are the two Collies entered deaf and blind ? If not, then there's nothing to talk about. Now the big question is, do I believe that link and the obvious smear campaign. Not a smear campaign, unless you believe that anyone who argues for maintaining diversity is out to smear people who inbreed. A science-oriented blogger with a biology background and a deep commitment to Border Collies. . . .which extends to other herding breeds. He is deeply worried by the popular sire effect. The two collies were not entered, they were invited to enter. Creme de la creme. They aren't blind or deaf, but they were both sired by a dog who is blind and deaf. We have plenty of people in the world that may have a blind or deaf parent or even both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The shocking part isn't that you would use a blind deaf dogs as a sire (providing you were sure his blindness and deafness was due to double merle not some other genetic problem), but that someone would do a merle to merle mating knowing there is a good chance of producing bline and deaf pups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 COI doesn't worry me in the least. I have a had a dog that was higher than that, a lovely example of the breed. Are the two Collies entered deaf and blind ? If not, then there's nothing to talk about. Now the big question is, do I believe that link and the obvious smear campaign. Not a smear campaign, unless you believe that anyone who argues for maintaining diversity is out to smear people who inbreed. A science-oriented blogger with a biology background and a deep commitment to Border Collies. . . .which extends to other herding breeds. He is deeply worried by the popular sire effect. The two collies were not entered, they were invited to enter. Creme de la creme. They aren't blind or deaf, but they were both sired by a dog who is blind and deaf. We have plenty of people in the world that may have a blind or deaf parent or even both. Yes, our childhood friends (3 kids) had both parents that were profoundly deaf. All three children were fine. The shocking part isn't that you would use a blind deaf dogs as a sire (providing you were sure his blindness and deafness was due to double merle not some other genetic problem), but that someone would do a merle to merle mating knowing there is a good chance of producing bline and deaf pups. At such a risk and what becomes of the blind and deaf puppies. I know that many are euthed at 6 weeks. Why such a high risk? Is the gain worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) The shocking part isn't that you would use a blind deaf dogs as a sire (providing you were sure his blindness and deafness was due to double merle not some other genetic problem), but that someone would do a merle to merle mating knowing there is a good chance of producing bline and deaf pups. Exactly. I wish it would become part of the COE - breed merle to merle and you're out of the AKC/ANKC. Breeding deaf & blind puppies can't ever be for the betterment of the breed. I wonder why the stud was originally bred? Pretty colours perhaps? Edited February 12, 2012 by megan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 People debating about whether the puppies will be blind or deaf are missing the point. the breeder deliberately bred merle to merle to get a stud that can guarantee an all blue merle litter. So it is all about colour. Pavlova - I'm suprised taht you don't take issue with it. What they're doing is a hell of a lot worse than the blue stafford craze IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The shocking part isn't that you would use a blind deaf dogs as a sire (providing you were sure his blindness and deafness was due to double merle not some other genetic problem), but that someone would do a merle to merle mating knowing there is a good chance of producing bline and deaf pups. Exactly. I wish it would become part of the COE - breed merle to merle and you're out of the AKC/ANKC. Breeding deaf & blind puppies can't ever be for the betterment of the breed. I wonder why the stud was originally bred? Pretty colours perhaps? Arn't you a bit late on things or is it me. :) I was under the impression that merle to merle was not allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyKay Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The issue I have with it (I don't like the idea of highly inbred dogs either of course) is you are using an unhealthy parent dog which surely resposible breeders should not do, regardless if the resulting puppies won't be MM and thus disabled themselves. And they deliberately bred this blind/deaf dog into existance just to get certain coloured puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The shocking part isn't that you would use a blind deaf dogs as a sire (providing you were sure his blindness and deafness was due to double merle not some other genetic problem), but that someone would do a merle to merle mating knowing there is a good chance of producing bline and deaf pups. Exactly. I wish it would become part of the COE - breed merle to merle and you're out of the AKC/ANKC. Breeding deaf & blind puppies can't ever be for the betterment of the breed. I wonder why the stud was originally bred? Pretty colours perhaps? I do find it a little concerning that someone went and bred a merle to merle litter because of the number of health risks involved. I personally would not be giving them money from using their stud to allow them to continue doing this type of breeding. I believe in supporting ethical breeders and I don't believe merle to merle is an ethical choice to make.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Arn't you a bit late on things or is it me. :) I was under the impression that merle to merle was not allowed. Not allowed by the ANKC but I'm not sure about the AKC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 People debating about whether the puppies will be blind or deaf are missing the point. the breeder deliberately bred merle to merle to get a stud that can guarantee an all blue merle litter. So it is all about colour. Pavlova - I'm suprised taht you don't take issue with it. What they're doing is a hell of a lot worse than the blue stafford craze IMO. Exactly, if this was a breeder advert on gumtree ect ppl here would be up in arms about byb and their dodgy practices. But as this is a registered breeder and the dog is winning shows it is ok? I am not going to speak for anyone else here but personally i would never even consider mating a blind and deaf dog, they would be desexed as soon as they were of age. As for mating merle to merle OP i don't believe in the whole popular stud thing either, surely one dog cannot be a suitable match for over half the females in that breed or more in the show ring, although it happens everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 People debating about whether the puppies will be blind or deaf are missing the point. the breeder deliberately bred merle to merle to get a stud that can guarantee an all blue merle litter. So it is all about colour. Pavlova - I'm suprised taht you don't take issue with it. What they're doing is a hell of a lot worse than the blue stafford craze IMO. Exactly, if this was a breeder advert on gumtree ect ppl here would be up in arms about byb and their dodgy practices. But as this is a registered breeder and the dog is winning shows it is ok? I am not going to speak for anyone else here but personally i would never even consider mating a blind and deaf dog, they would be desexed as soon as they were of age. As for mating merle to merle OP i don't believe in the whole popular stud thing either, surely one dog cannot be a suitable match for over half the females in that breed or more in the show ring, although it happens everywhere. Except in registries where there is a limit on how many services a stud dog is allowed. They do it in greyhounds to prevent popular sire syndrome, to prevent stud dog abuse, and to keep the gene pool a bit deeper than it would be otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 What distressed me in this was - the AKC gave these dogs high honors in 2011, and is doing so again in 2012; thus in effect, the AKC is endorsing merle to merle breedings - it is all about colour. The US breed standard says about colour: The four recognized colors are "Sable and White," "Tri-color," "Blue Merle" and "White." There is no preference among them." But obviously the show world is giving strong preference to the blue merle . . . People give Lab breeders sh#t for producing chocolates. This is the equivalent of producing a chocolate, knowing that you cannot do so without a high probability of blindness or deafness. To say nothing about the popular sires problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 People debating about whether the puppies will be blind or deaf are missing the point. the breeder deliberately bred merle to merle to get a stud that can guarantee an all blue merle litter. So it is all about colour. Pavlova - I'm suprised taht you don't take issue with it. What they're doing is a hell of a lot worse than the blue stafford craze IMO. Exactly, if this was a breeder advert on gumtree ect ppl here would be up in arms about byb and their dodgy practices. But as this is a registered breeder and the dog is winning shows it is ok? I am not going to speak for anyone else here but personally i would never even consider mating a blind and deaf dog, they would be desexed as soon as they were of age. As for mating merle to merle OP i don't believe in the whole popular stud thing either, surely one dog cannot be a suitable match for over half the females in that breed or more in the show ring, although it happens everywhere. Except in registries where there is a limit on how many services a stud dog is allowed. They do it in greyhounds to prevent popular sire syndrome, to prevent stud dog abuse, and to keep the gene pool a bit deeper than it would be otherwise. Thank you for the info Greytmate, i didn't know this about Greyhounds :) Good on the Greyhound registry If only more breeds would follow suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 What distressed me in this was - the AKC gave these dogs high honors in 2011, and is doing so again in 2012; thus in effect, the AKC is endorsing merle to merle breedings - it is all about colour. The US breed standard says about colour: The four recognized colors are "Sable and White," "Tri-color," "Blue Merle" and "White." There is no preference among them." But obviously the show world is giving strong preference to the blue merle . . . People give Lab breeders sh#t for producing chocolates. This is the equivalent of producing a chocolate, knowing that you cannot do so without a high probability of blindness or deafness. To say nothing about the popular sires problem. I don't get this bit? The AKC invites the 5 top ranked dogs. 2 blue merle dogs happened to be in the top 5 - this is because show judges gave them wins, not because the AKC chooses the top 5 dogs based on colour or the like.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuddleDuck Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 People give Lab breeders sh#t for producing chocolates. This is the equivalent of producing a chocolate, knowing that you cannot do so without a high probability of blindness or deafness. To say nothing about the popular sires problem. Sorry not trying to hijack but I've not heard about choc labs before. We have a couple in the extended family with behavioural issues. Can you give me more info on chocolate issues please (PM is fine if you prefer)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 What distressed me in this was - the AKC gave these dogs high honors in 2011, and is doing so again in 2012; thus in effect, the AKC is endorsing merle to merle breedings - it is all about colour. The US breed standard says about colour: The four recognized colors are "Sable and White," "Tri-color," "Blue Merle" and "White." There is no preference among them." But obviously the show world is giving strong preference to the blue merle . . . People give Lab breeders sh#t for producing chocolates. This is the equivalent of producing a chocolate, knowing that you cannot do so without a high probability of blindness or deafness. To say nothing about the popular sires problem. I don't get this bit? The AKC invites the 5 top ranked dogs. 2 blue merle dogs happened to be in the top 5 - this is because show judges gave them wins, not because the AKC chooses the top 5 dogs based on colour or the like.... You are exactly right RallyValley, but sandgrubber doesn't show her dogs so perhaps she didn't know, I'm sure she wouldn't use this little smear campaign as an excuse to deliberately denigrate the AKC ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Unless judges have pedigrees in front of them, they're not going to know the ancestry of the dogs they're judging. Banning merle to merle matings would be a better method of dealing with the issue. Under Victorian law, they're effectively banned now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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