Breeding With Bitches Who Have Had A C Section

[Andisa]

What do you do with a bitch who has had ONE C section -

Would you spay her?

Would you breed her again?

If you bred the bitch again after one c section did she require another or not?

Would you breed with a daughter from a bitch who had a c section.

[espinay2]

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?

[Sandra777]

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?

x2

I bought a bitch who was born by caesarian, one litter she had a caesar.

Kept a daughter from this litter, 2 caesars (one was elective because she had conceived one pup to frozen semen and we wanted to take no chances with that pup, it died at 3 days anyway )

Kept a daughter from her, 1st litter, caesar. Don't have that family any more.

[Andisa]

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?

Yeah, I suppose it's a large grey area.

Piper had uterine inertia the first time and I was told that while she had a good chance of it happening again - she might go on to deliver naturally next time. I bred her the 2nd time and the same thing happened again but she was 6 days early. She was never bred again and is now spayed.

I would like to breed the bitch I kept from the prem litter - I suppose it's a risk that she too may require a c section, if so that will be then end of the dream for me.

Just wanting feed back on what others have done and if the inability to deliver naturally was passed on to the next generation.

I know several who have had natural deliveries after a c section but haven't heard enough about daughters born from bitches who had uterine inertia.

[Steve]

Its my experience it usually does run in lines but not all C sections are equal and it does depend on what caused it .

[Andisa]

Its my experience it usually does run in lines but not all C sections are equal and it does depend on what caused it .

Steve - from what I was able to find out the lines that my Rottweiler bitch came from were natural whelping.

Pink is almost 3 1/2yo so I am allowing myself another 12 months to have the litter or spay her. She is a very hormonal bitch, phantoms like you would never believe, swelling, sooky and clingy for attention, digs her way to China around her "due" date and has "labored" harder than her mother ever did and cares for her imaginary puppies providing milk for several weeks too.

As she is so hormonal I keep an eye out for any signs of pyo, I have been told my many including vets that she needs to be bred soon or spay her. She is due to come in season again next month but she won't be bred then - if we breed her I am aiming for the end of the year or this time next year at the latest. She is a well put together bitch with a fantastic nature.

[Andisa]

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?

x2

I bought a bitch who was born by caesarian, one litter she had a caesar.

Kept a daughter from this litter, 2 caesars (one was elective because she had conceived one pup to frozen semen and we wanted to take no chances with that pup, it died at 3 days anyway )

Kept a daughter from her, 1st litter, caesar. Don't have that family any more.

This is what worries me

Edited February 5, 2012 by Andisa

[Sandra777]

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?

x2

I bought a bitch who was born by caesarian, one litter she had a caesar.

Kept a daughter from this litter, 2 caesars (one was elective because she had conceived one pup to frozen semen and we wanted to take no chances with that pup, it died at 3 days anyway )

Kept a daughter from her, 1st litter, caesar. Don't have that family any more.

This is what worries me

And so it should, honestly.

I have had another bitch I bought as a pup but didn't get until she was five (it's complicated :laugh: ), she had two litters before I got her, single pup, caesar. Second litter of 5 or 6, delivered fine. Two bitches out of this litter had multiple litters (at least 2 for one and 3 for the other) no caesars AFAIK

I bred her when she was almost 6, five pups fine.

After a lot of debate bred her again when she was nearly 7, she conceived 11 pups (breed average 4-5), 3 weren't viable, one got stuck, caesar.

A bitch out of the first litter I had from her had 3 litters, no problems.

A bitch from the 2nd of those three litters had a caesar on her first litter, refused to push (not inertia)

2nd litter when she was nearly 5, 4 pups born fine.

Daughter from that 2nd litter one litter at 3, caesar. 1st pup was coming with one front leg back flat against his body, took a lot for the vet to get him unwedged and pull him out backwards through the caesar incision.

Daughter from that one litter, one litter at 2, caesar. This litter was said to be inertia, I wasn't there (didn't breed the litter) so don't know

Daughter from that one litter, one litter so far not quite 2, no problems.

This particular family I have no issues with and would continue with.

[Andisa]

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?

x2

I bought a bitch who was born by caesarian, one litter she had a caesar.

Kept a daughter from this litter, 2 caesars (one was elective because she had conceived one pup to frozen semen and we wanted to take no chances with that pup, it died at 3 days anyway )

Kept a daughter from her, 1st litter, caesar. Don't have that family any more.

This is what worries me

And so it should, honestly.

I have had another bitch I bought as a pup but didn't get until she was five (it's complicated :laugh: ), she had two litters before I got her, single pup, caesar. Second litter of 5 or 6, delivered fine. Two bitches out of this litter had multiple litters (at least 2 for one and 3 for the other) no caesars AFAIK

I bred her when she was almost 6, five pups fine.

After a lot of debate bred her again when she was nearly 7, she conceived 11 pups (breed average 4-5), 3 weren't viable, one got stuck, caesar.

A bitch out of the first litter I had from her had 3 litters, no problems.

A bitch from the 2nd of those three litters had a caesar on her first litter, refused to push (not inertia)

2nd litter when she was nearly 5, 4 pups born fine.

Daughter from that 2nd litter one litter at 3, caesar. 1st pup was coming with one front leg back flat against his body, took a lot for the vet to get him unwedged and pull him out backwards through the caesar incision.

Daughter from that one litter, one litter at 2, caesar. This litter was said to be inertia, I wasn't there (didn't breed the litter) so don't know

Daughter from that one litter, one litter so far not quite 2, no problems.

This particular family I have no issues with and would continue with.

Thanks Sandra - that was very interesting. A 5 year wait for your pup - I bet that was interesting too :laugh: .

If I never breed Pink I will never know the outcome - but not in a hurry to find out just yet :D

[hilaryo]

My bitch has had 3 sections but none of them have been her fault! The last was elective due to her age. She comes from a line of free whelping bitches.

Before mating for the last litter she was declared fit and well by the vet which included bloods as she was 7.5 years.

Only one of her daughter's has whelped a litter as yet. She was carrying two puppies - first puppy was huge and breech and got stuck and died unfortunately. Second was a repeat of the first but they managed to get her out and revive her.

Four of her daughters will possibly be whelping within the next 12-18 months so will be interesting. Although the genetics contributed from the sire would count equally surely!

Edited February 5, 2012 by hilaryo

[Andisa]

My bitch has had 3 sections but none of them have been her fault! The last was elective due to her age. She comes from a line of free whelping bitches.

Before mating for the last litter she was declared fit and well by the vet which included bloods as she was 7.5 years.

Only one of her daughter's has whelped a litter as yet. She was carrying two puppies - first puppy was huge and breech and got stuck and died unfortunately. Second was a repeat of the first but they managed to get her out and revive her.

Four of her daughters will possibly be whelping within the next 12-18 months so will be interesting. Although the genetics contributed from the sire would count equally surely!

Well IF that's the case things are looking better already :D

Edited February 5, 2012 by Andisa

[dancinbcs]

As the others have said it depends on the reason. A mispresented puppy that gets stuck is not the bitches fault, just bad luck. No puppy can be born coming sideways. In breeds that normally have at least 4 in a litter a singleton nearly always requires a caesar because there are not enough puppies to trigger the hormones to send them into labour. A singleton can be caused by many things usually not the fault of the bitch.

Inertia is another matter though and can be hereditary. With an outstanding bitch I would try twice but no more. Inertia can also be caused by leaving a bitch too long between litters. Nature designed them to have a litter a year and if you leave 3 or 4 years between litters, as we often do, They often run out of steam part way through the whelping. My first bitch spat out 6 puppies in 40 minutes with her first litter. The second litter 4 years later she had 2-3 hours between puppies, got three out, the 4th one was dead and got stuck. We got two more live ones out by caesar. Her daughters whelped fine.

[Andisa]

As the others have said it depends on the reason. A mispresented puppy that gets stuck is not the bitches fault, just bad luck. No puppy can be born coming sideways. In breeds that normally have at least 4 in a litter a singleton nearly always requires a caesar because there are not enough puppies to trigger the hormones to send them into labour. A singleton can be caused by many things usually not the fault of the bitch.

Inertia is another matter though and can be hereditary. With an outstanding bitch I would try twice but no more. Inertia can also be caused by leaving a bitch too long between litters. Nature designed them to have a litter a year and if you leave 3 or 4 years between litters, as we often do, They often run out of steam part way through the whelping. My first bitch spat out 6 puppies in 40 minutes with her first litter. The second litter 4 years later she had 2-3 hours between puppies, got three out, the 4th one was dead and got stuck. We got two more live ones out by caesar. Her daughters whelped fine.

Piper was super fit with her first litter at 2 1/2yo, second was 12 months later, fitness wasn't as good as the previous year - but was still good. First litter was 9, 8 live and second was 6 days early - 8 pups 5 live - 3 survived - vet believes she went early due to the dead pups.

Repo vet believes I was just unlucky, said a young, healthy and strong bitch like her should have delivered naturally.

The vets I have spoken to have all said pretty much the same thing, they see no reason why Pink can't deliver naturally and just do what needs to be done. Either way what ever I decide no doubt I will share the journey with you all :laugh:

Edited February 5, 2012 by Andisa

[cowanbree]

What do you do with a bitch who has had ONE C section -

Very difficult as in my line I have had a lot of c-sections for primary inertia . Have really struggled with it but given they have good hips, elbows, eyes and temperments and I have had major issues with these in the past I am reluctant to lose this line. I will do 2 c-sections and then they are spayed

If you bred the bitch again after one c section did she require another or not?

Yes although given she had previously had a c-section I didn't leave it as long as I would have if I had been expecting a natural birth and often wonder if she could have delivered naturally

Would you breed with a daughter from a bitch who had a c section.

I have but primary inertia does seems to be herditary so they have required c-sections. My answers woudl be different if it wasn't primary inertia

[Steve]

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?

Yeah, I suppose it's a large grey area.

Piper had uterine inertia the first time and I was told that while she had a good chance of it happening again - she might go on to deliver naturally next time. I bred her the 2nd time and the same thing happened again but she was 6 days early. She was never bred again and is now spayed.

I would like to breed the bitch I kept from the prem litter - I suppose it's a risk that she too may require a c section, if so that will be then end of the dream for me.

Just wanting feed back on what others have done and if the inability to deliver naturally was passed on to the next generation.

I know several who have had natural deliveries after a c section but haven't heard enough about daughters born from bitches who had uterine inertia.

Was it primary or secondary inertia? how large was the litter? What was she fed pre whelping?

When you speak about inertia there may be ways you can go about preventing it next time - assuming it caused because of something maternally and not because the pups were too big for her birth canal etc.

So tell me how the labour progressed and what got you to deciding it was a C section and we will look at it more closely.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I'm with Steve need to look at the whole course of the labour.

[Andisa]

Was it primary or secondary inertia? how large was the litter? What was she fed pre whelping?

When you speak about inertia there may be ways you can go about preventing it next time - assuming it caused because of something maternally and not because the pups were too big for her birth canal etc.

So tell me how the labour progressed and what got you to deciding it was a C section and we will look at it more closely.

Steve - I mentioned above the litter details, Piper had primary inertia. I have been feeding a raw natural diet for years and went by the Billinghurst book back then, I believe I ticked all the boxes and still had trouble. Had she been a kennel dog she would have died with the first litter, she gave no real indication that she was in labor except for a really intense stare - then I noticed a small amount of dark fluid on the floor where she had just dripped, had she been outside I would have missed it. I just knew she was in trouble - gut feeling, called the vet and told them I was on my way. They told me to give her time but I said "no" I am coming in. They scanned her and found the pups were stressed and mum was too - she walked around the surgery as if nothing was wrong but I just knew it was time. Ray Ferguson asked me what made me think she was in trouble, all I could say was gut instinct - he told me I made the right call, if I waited much longer all the pups would most likely have died - 1st pup delivered was already dead. They were small to average size pups for the breed.

Second time she was laying in the whelping box beside me and gave me the same look - I knew we were in trouble again and then she passed a lot of brown blood. Called the em clinic (A/H)and had her there within 15 mins - however they took their sweet time, 1 hour later before doing the c section. They did an ultra sound and thought all pups were dead which is my guess why they didn't go straight in. They said that 2 pups had been dead for a while and most likely the reason she went early, they were small but still a reasonable size for their gestation.

Both times Piper hardly made any mess with digging outside or in the box, her biggest indication was the intense stars at me. One thing I have noticed is she has a small vagina, even in full season she was small, her first litter was a fresh AI and second was a natural mating. Where as my other girls have huge vaginas when in season and they are maidens. When the vets did the first c section they said that there was no physical reason why she could not have delivered naturally, everything looked normal.

eta; - thinking back over 4 yrs ago and she was given time to labor but not progressing, I made a few calls with the first litter before going in. Second litter I figured with all the brown blood it was all over and went straight away.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Andisa

[Steve]

Was it primary or secondary inertia? how large was the litter? What was she fed pre whelping?

When you speak about inertia there may be ways you can go about preventing it next time - assuming it caused because of something maternally and not because the pups were too big for her birth canal etc.

So tell me how the labour progressed and what got you to deciding it was a C section and we will look at it more closely.

Steve - I mentioned above the litter details, Piper had primary inertia. I have been feeding a raw natural diet for years and went by the Billinghurst book back then, I believe I ticked all the boxes and still had trouble. Had she been a kennel dog she would have died with the first litter, she gave no real indication that she was in labor except for a really intense stare - then I noticed a small amount of dark fluid on the floor where she had just dripped, had she been outside I would have missed it. I just knew she was in trouble - gut feeling, called the vet and told them I was on my way. They told me to give her time but I said "no" I am coming in. They scanned her and found the pups were stressed and mum was too - she walked around the surgery as if nothing was wrong but I just knew it was time. Ray Ferguson asked me what made me think she was in trouble, all I could say was gut instinct - he told me I made the right call, if I waited much longer all the pups would most likely have died - 1st pup delivered was already dead. They were small to average size pups for the breed.

Second time she was laying in the whelping box beside me and gave me the same look - I knew we were in trouble again and then she passed a lot of brown blood. Called the em clinic (A/H)and had her there within 15 mins - however they took their sweet time, 1 hour later before doing the c section. They did an ultra sound and thought all pups were dead which is my guess why they didn't go straight in. They said that 2 pups had been dead for a while and most likely the reason she went early, they were small but still a reasonable size for their gestation.

Both times Piper hardly made any mess with digging outside or in the box, her biggest indication was the intense stars at me. One thing I have noticed is she has a small vagina, even in full season she was small, her first litter was a fresh AI and second was a natural mating. Where as my other girls have huge vaginas when in season and they are maidens. When the vets did the first c section they said that there was no physical reason why she could not have delivered naturally, everything looked normal.

Where they a bit over weight? How many puppies?

[Andisa]

This is the same bitch both litters - she was super fit first time, she was swimming 3 times a week around 80 laps of the dog pool each time plus going to the beach and regular walking, second time she wasn't as fit but not unfit - not fat or over weight.

First litter was 9 delivered - 8 live. Second was 8 delivered (2 dead and decomposing)6 delivered live, 1 died soon after - another 2 died within days. Was a struggle with them being premmies. She was home within hours of surgery.

[Sandra777]

In this sceanario I would be asking the owners of other closely related bitches and if it doesn't seem to be a common problem, I would try one litter going in with the resolve that if it happened again I would not persist.

My foundation bitch was a daughter of a bitch who was very slow whelping (6 hours for 5 pups). My bitch had no of problems with her first litter of 7 but her second and final litter was 5, one DOA after being forcep delivered by the vet. Those were the days The bitch I kept out of the final litter had a litter of 10 first time, 9 the second. The first litter she was fine, 2nd litter she needed oxytocin to get the first pup out then was fine. 3rd litter was 5 and she was living with a vet then who gave her a shot of oxy for each pup but I'm not strictly speaking positive she needed this much (again, I wasn't there, perhaps she did)

Edited February 5, 2012 by Sandra777