Mystiqview Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Everything that is going as a pet goes on limited registration. While it will not stop people from breeding with the dog, it does prevent them from registering the litter with the ANKC. Ethical breeders spend a lot of time researching lines, health testing and building up networks and partnerships with other responsible breeders. The old breeders are leaving the breed. There goes the knowledge and expertise with them. In my breed, like many others, there is a dramatic increase on the popular colours and bad breeding practices by people who are wanting to cash in on the money that can be gained by breeding these popular colours. In recent years, particularly in SE Queensland, the raise of the colour breeders is alarming and likewise disturbing. They are using inferior dogs in their breeding practices, not doing all the relevant health testing and most of all not researching their lines for known issues with particular animals or group of animals, thus propagating these same faults and issues. They do not seem to care the quality they are putting out there is substandard nor do they really care if the dog later has issue with health or temperament. The focus of the $$$ now. They see no issue in having four litters on a 5 year old bitch by back to back breeding two seasons in a row, giving a 12 month break (because CCC demand no more than 2 litters in an 18 month period). They are breeding colours that should not be bred together, nor are taking into consideration the lack of pigment some of these animals are having. Why should the hard work of a few dedicated breeders who really care about the breed be subjected and misused by the rising unethical ones? Too many now are wanting to cash in on the quick buck and make money where they can. It is not for the love of the breed or the betterment of the breed they choose to breed. There is nothing wrong with having a colour preference. Colour should not be the predetermining factor for choosing the dogs to breed two animals. The dog should compliment the bitch and vice versa. These breeders do not research their lines, nor want to know about what has come before the dogs they now have. If some of them only took the time to really care, they would be in for a rude shock. They claim the dogs would suit all disciplines, but have never set foot in any of them. If they have, it has only to go to a baby show or two to say they have "shown". It is sad to say that we cannot trust anyone any more. But that is seeming to be the case. For those who try to do the right thing are met with distrust from the old respected breeders wondering if they are there to ruin their hard work and lines. Those who are new to the breed distrust the ones coming after them for they want to protect their reputation for wanting to do the right thing. So it begins a vicious circle. The choice of main verses limited. It's an easy one. Limited. Edited February 22, 2012 by Mystiqview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Everything that is going as a pet goes on limited registration. While it will not stop people from breeding with the dog, it does prevent them from registering the litter with the ANKC. Ethical breeders spend a lot of time researching lines, health testing and building up networks and partnerships with other responsible breeders. The old breeders are leaving the breed. There goes the knowledge and expertise with them. In my breed, like many others, there is a dramatic increase on the popular colours and bad breeding practices by people who are wanting to cash in on the money that can be gained by breeding these popular colours. In recent years, particularly in SE Queensland, the raise of the colour breeders is alarming and likewise disturbing. They are using inferior dogs in their breeding practices, not doing all the relevant health testing and most of all not researching their lines for known issues with particular animals or group of animals, thus propagating these same faults and issues. They do not seem to care the quality they are putting out there is substandard nor do they really care if the dog later has issue with health or temperament. The focus of the $$$ now. They see no issue in having four litters on a 5 year old bitch by back to back breeding two seasons in a row, giving a 12 month break (because CCC demand no more than 2 litters in an 18 month period). They are breeding colours that should not be bred together, nor are taking into consideration the lack of pigment some of these animals are having. Why should the hard work of a few dedicated breeders who really care about the breed be subjected and misused by the rising unethical ones? Too many now are wanting to cash in on the quick buck and make money where they can. It is not for the love of the breed or the betterment of the breed they choose to breed. There is nothing wrong with having a colour preference. Colour should not be the predetermining factor for choosing the dogs to breed two animals. The dog should compliment the bitch and vice versa. These breeders do not research their lines, nor want to know about what has come before the dogs they now have. If some of them only took the time to really care, they would be in for a rude shock. They claim the dogs would suit all disciplines, but have never set foot in any of them. If they have, it has only to go to a baby show or two to say they have "shown". It is sad to say that we cannot trust anyone any more. But that is seeming to be the case. For those who try to do the right thing are met with distrust from the old respected breeders wondering if they are there to ruin their hard work and lines. Those who are new to the breed distrust the ones coming after them for they want to protect their reputation for wanting to do the right thing. So it begins a vicious circle. The choice of main verses limited. It's an easy one. Limited. MV, is there a clear divide between the establishment and the new colour breeders? I dont know, maybe a lowering of the drawbridge or something and letting one or few in may work ... there may be more opportunity to guide by example - wrt a dog of better conformation and temperament - if the other breeders actually have an example of this. It is hard for a relatively new breeder to see an ideal or accept it if none of their own dogs are anywhere near. If they saw in a dog of their own keeping, conformation and temperament attributes, that were closer to the breed ideal, then it may give them the bar lift they need to SEE and then breed better dogs. You cannot learn by books and being spoken to, some things I believe you have to see and know for yourself to appreciate properly its entire context. I think you have more influence as a breeder, and can share your ideas about what is the breed ideal, if there is a common base from which to learn and compare experiences from. Edited February 22, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Lilli, Unfortunately there is a big divide between the establishment and the colour breeders here now. Particularly in Queensland recently there have been a rise in their numbers. Many a respected breeder has tried to help, guide and assist them along the way and have been met with a brick wall. Why go with the establishment who sell their quality dogs for under $1000 when you can breed colour and sell it anywhere from $1500 plus? They also ignore the Australian Breed standard and incorrectly register their dogs on the Main Register as our standard do not allow all the colours as overseas countries. (EG; Choc Merle, Choc tricolour, Blue tricolour, Sable, lilac) These will more than likely be registered as Chocolate/white, Blue Merle, Blue/white, Tricolour and either Chocolate or Blue in the case of lilac. I agree, there are only so much you can learn from books or the internet. New breeders do need a responsible mentor. I have been lucky in that I have had the support and backing from some long term respected breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Lilli, Unfortunately there is a big divide between the establishment and the colour breeders here now. Particularly in Queensland recently there have been a rise in their numbers. Many a respected breeder has tried to help, guide and assist them along the way and have been met with a brick wall. Why go with the establishment who sell their quality dogs for under $1000 when you can breed colour and sell it anywhere from $1500 plus? They also ignore the Australian Breed standard and incorrectly register their dogs on the Main Register as our standard do not allow all the colours as overseas countries. (EG; Choc Merle, Choc tricolour, Blue tricolour, Sable, lilac) These will more than likely be registered as Chocolate/white, Blue Merle, Blue/white, Tricolour and either Chocolate or Blue in the case of lilac. I agree, there are only so much you can learn from books or the internet. New breeders do need a responsible mentor. I have been lucky in that I have had the support and backing from some long term respected breeders. Hmm the problem is that with time and by weight of numbers their dogs will become the norm and reduce the median for BC's. The divide maintains the difference for now, but it is a stalemate that has no solution other than the eventual change of the BC guard. Which will result in a change of BC ethos, as new owners with their different perspective of ideal BC and colour, replace the establishment. Regarding price, I would ask, what are they new breeders doing right or different that makes puppy buyers happy to pay that much more for their dogs. Maybe established breeders can incorporate some colours or try and improve the physical type of coloured BC's? or maybe introducing colours is heresy I don't know :) What is the difference between Choc/white and Choc tricolour? Edited February 22, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesley Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Easy Peasy:- If I considered a puppy not good enough to breed from, then I would not consider it good enough for anyone else to breed from. ;) Then it would go on limited register. Also in our breed some puppies are born lacking required markings, which would immediately place them in the pet basket. Sure, there are often ones you may wish to run on, and these would be placed on main register, and then if they don't make the cut, desexing prior to rehousing is the ultimate decision. Limited register is only a means of protection from inferior specimens being used incorrectly. And I might also add that there are too may unscrupulous people out there with the wrong intent, which spoil it for the ones with good intent. And those with good intent, are usually very prepared to be mentored and take the time to learn further about their chosen breed, before taking the plunge to place a litter on the ground. Only then, will they in turn have mastered the required knowledge to follow on and make their own decisions about limited or main register! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) once upon a time... long long ago. there was only one register...main register. on that went any puppy the breeder considered was of sufficient quality to bear their kennel name. then membership began falling.. not to mention the Canine Council in its wisdom decided to waste a few hundred thousand dollars denying a board member access to records she wished to examine as i understand it. on the grounds that she was wasting staff time? considering how much money they wasted and i understand lost.. it would have been cheaper to hire her a full time helper to riffle though whatever she wanted to see. all of a sudden,, we have a new rule... every live pup must be registered. regardless of whether you want anyone to know THAT came from your kennel. anyone that tells you their dogs have never produced a puppy they want to hide behind the house is either lying or incredibly blessed. the limit register has one purpose only... $$$$$$$$ it has nothing to do with defining ethical from unethical ... even if its acceptance was bought by you either agree or your self convicted. you dont only put the rubbish on limit. you dont just put the best of the litter on main. you limit any who you sell as a pet. ive sold many pets heaps better than ones that became champions.. there are far more people wanting a pet to love for its lifetime than there are people who want to go to shows and win a ribbon. where is your best advertisments of your dogs? at a show where on the main only the showies are? or out there mixing with everyone who loves their dogs and loving hearing someone ask. "WOW where did you get that dog" letting people think only non show quality go on limit is an insult to thousands of superb pet puppies. Edited February 23, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Lilli, Unfortunately there is a big divide between the establishment and the colour breeders here now. Particularly in Queensland recently there have been a rise in their numbers. Many a respected breeder has tried to help, guide and assist them along the way and have been met with a brick wall. Why go with the establishment who sell their quality dogs for under $1000 when you can breed colour and sell it anywhere from $1500 plus? They also ignore the Australian Breed standard and incorrectly register their dogs on the Main Register as our standard do not allow all the colours as overseas countries. (EG; Choc Merle, Choc tricolour, Blue tricolour, Sable, lilac) These will more than likely be registered as Chocolate/white, Blue Merle, Blue/white, Tricolour and either Chocolate or Blue in the case of lilac. I agree, there are only so much you can learn from books or the internet. New breeders do need a responsible mentor. I have been lucky in that I have had the support and backing from some long term respected breeders. Hmm the problem is that with time and by weight of numbers their dogs will become the norm and reduce the median for BC's. The divide maintains the difference for now, but it is a stalemate that has no solution other than the eventual change of the BC guard. Which will result in a change of BC ethos, as new owners with their different perspective of ideal BC and colour, replace the establishment. Regarding price, I would ask, what are they new breeders doing right or different that makes puppy buyers happy to pay that much more for their dogs. Maybe established breeders can incorporate some colours or try and improve the physical type of coloured BC's? or maybe introducing colours is heresy I don't know :) What is the difference between Choc/white and Choc tricolour? The difference between Chocolate/White and Chocolate tricolour is Chocolate/white is the only colour allowed to be registered on the Main Registration. Australia's breed standard does not recognise Chocolate tricolour or Chocolate Merle, so to keep these dogs in a breeding program, they are incorrectly registered as another colour. These colour breeders are not doing anything better than the establishment. If anything they do less. Some of the biggest colour breeders who border of puppy farming, do not hip/elbow score of fully health screen their breeding animals. Some have had four litters on their bitch by the time the bitch is 4 years old. The CCC do not allow us to have more than two litters in an 18 month period. The colour breeders charge what the unsuspecting public are willing to pay. The dogs are not better quality. I am not saying the establishment have always produced top rate dogs. The more you breed, the greater chance there is for the breeder to breed something with a problem. There are some who have colour naturally appearing in their lines can keep a degree of colour and keep the quality. The black/white dog is still the preferred in the show ring. There have been some successful coloured dogs. Red/white or Blue/white tend to be the ones who do make it in the ring. There has also been the odd Chocolate/White who has been successful. Some will say it has to do with the person on the end of the lead, others say the conformation of the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Lilli, Unfortunately there is a big divide between the establishment and the colour breeders here now. Particularly in Queensland recently there have been a rise in their numbers. Many a respected breeder has tried to help, guide and assist them along the way and have been met with a brick wall. Why go with the establishment who sell their quality dogs for under $1000 when you can breed colour and sell it anywhere from $1500 plus? They also ignore the Australian Breed standard and incorrectly register their dogs on the Main Register as our standard do not allow all the colours as overseas countries. (EG; Choc Merle, Choc tricolour, Blue tricolour, Sable, lilac) These will more than likely be registered as Chocolate/white, Blue Merle, Blue/white, Tricolour and either Chocolate or Blue in the case of lilac. I agree, there are only so much you can learn from books or the internet. New breeders do need a responsible mentor. I have been lucky in that I have had the support and backing from some long term respected breeders. Hmm the problem is that with time and by weight of numbers their dogs will become the norm and reduce the median for BC's. The divide maintains the difference for now, but it is a stalemate that has no solution other than the eventual change of the BC guard. Which will result in a change of BC ethos, as new owners with their different perspective of ideal BC and colour, replace the establishment. Regarding price, I would ask, what are they new breeders doing right or different that makes puppy buyers happy to pay that much more for their dogs. Maybe established breeders can incorporate some colours or try and improve the physical type of coloured BC's? or maybe introducing colours is heresy I don't know :) What is the difference between Choc/white and Choc tricolour? The difference between Chocolate/White and Chocolate tricolour is Chocolate/white is the only colour allowed to be registered on the Main Registration. Australia's breed standard does not recognise Chocolate tricolour or Chocolate Merle, so to keep these dogs in a breeding program, they are incorrectly registered as another colour. Sorry I meant what does a chocolate/white BC look like and what does a chocolate tricolour look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) the tricolour would have tan dots above its eyes, on the muzzle and feet, and tan around the anus. imagine a black/blue/chocolate/lilac and tan doberman with any white markings like the BC's have... n imagine the long coat too Edited February 23, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I suppose the best description of colours available are Here: Border Collie Colours In Australia, our breed standard only recognises the following: Black/white Blue/White Red/White Chocolate/White Black Tricolour Blue Merle In all colours, White shall not predominate. Some of the colour breeders are producing a lot of white, which also runs the increased risk of deaf/blind puppies and calling it "piebald". While maybe technically correct when you compare this with piebald in horses, it is not a colour, nor is it something desirable to set out and achieve and try to dress up by calling it a fancy name (which is all about marketing I know). These puppies with excess white, should also be BAER hearing tested, as in some of the lines where it is coming from, already runs hearing issues (as others have produced puppies from very similar lines). The more testing, the more money required to be spent, the less "profit" there is to be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 "Bumped" for Romana to find. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rottsup Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 There is no right or wrong way to decide, it's up to the individual breeder. For us, if a pup is sold as a show/breeding potential pup then it is sold on main register, if a pup is sold as a pet then it is sold on limited register. As simple as that. Exactly the same for us too :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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