Idiots - Opinions On Comments?

[aussielover]

Actually the OP asked should it be ok to pat a strange dog (without permission) without fear of being bitten.

Which is somewhat different to: is it anyone's right to go up to a strange dog and pat it without asking the owners first?

I think if a person approaches in a non threatening way eg. talking to the dog first, letting it know your there, letting it approach you etc then they should not fear being bitten in a public situation.

Obviously if they throw them selves upon the dog, startle it and bear hug it, they should expect a less than favourable response.

I copied the actual words of the question asked by the OP. It asked if someone had the right to go up and pat a dog without asking for the owners' permission.

Tell me why, in your scenario, you will talk to the dog first? And are unwilling or unable to speak a few words to the person who owns the dog?

When in those same seconds, you could've displayed good manners combined with a reality check....and spoken to the owner... 'Is it OK to pat your dog?'

The good manners in asking the owner, tests degree of risk. Only a fantasist believes that there can never, ever be any risk.

And, it's not just risk... an owner has the right to not want strangers patting their dog. As someone else said, just as people have the right to not want strangers touching their babies & small children.

The question in the poll was: Should a person be able to pat a strange dog (without asking the owners permission) without the fear of being bitten?

In the scenario I described I was thinking more about kids who might be more inclined to talk to the dog only. I know kids who have run up to my dog and spoken to her first, not me.

This usually gets her attention and at least she is aware of them so she can move away or go over to a sniff and pat.

In my experience, it is quite rare for adults to pat my dog without at least acknowledging me first, maybe not directly asking my permission but a smile and hesitation, where I could easily jump in and say please don't pat her, she is working or she is a bit shy etc.

BTW i DONT think that a person has a right to go up to pat a dog without asking permission.

I think people should exercise common sense. I'm going to quote Greymate again as I dont think I could put it more succinctly myself:

If the dog is in the street, it should be able to accept people touching/patting/bumping into it without biting as a response.

If the owner is worried that their dog will bite they have an obligation to muzzle it.

If the dog is on private property and a person enters the dog's yard without permission, they should fear being bitten.

[spyke88]

i am actually on the hunt for patches/ shirts that state either DO NOT PAT ME or ASK TO PAT ME as luna is VERY fearful of people. while i don't think she would bite anyone- if ridiculously cornered it may happen, she prefers to back away. there are so many stupid people where i live that practically chase her trying to pat her that i think it will end up worsening the situation for her and sending us back rather than forward - if anyone here has a good link to somewhere i can buy aforementioned patches/shirts that would be great! we're trying to get her past it but we need people with patience and treats in the right setting not tools outside of foodworks lunging at her

[Diva]

i am actually on the hunt for patches/ shirts that state either DO NOT PAT ME or ASK TO PAT ME as luna is VERY fearful of people.

K9 Pro sells a 'Give me space - don't pat' patch that attaches with velcro to the harnesses he sells. Maybe contact them.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Diva

[spyke88]

brilliant thanks!

[Souff]

At the same time people have a right to be out in public without fear of being bitten. You can't control people, the human machine has a mind of its own really so you have to idiot proof your dog. If a child does run up to a dog your holding and gets bitten by your dog, I would still say why did your dog not wear a muzzle if it is that reactive. Society is give and take.

There also seems to be this snobbish sentiment on this forum that your dogs are not to be touched by anyone at all. Did we all learn under the same security trainer I had privvy to listen too way back when ... I agree people should always ask first before getting a pat but anti social animals should be marked clearly to prevent an accident, and to show they too can be responsibly socialised out and about.

Yes, people do have the right to not be fearful of being attacked by a dog.

However, if the human is the one to make a move towards the animal, then the human should always be aware that such action may result in teeth being employed by the animal.

I love kids to pat my dogs and I will invite them to do so, or if they ask, I will usually agree.

Am I happy if they rush up to my dogs or lunge at them, (as many young children tend to do) ?

Definitely not.

I see my dog's body language and it is clearly saying "I do not like this approach!"

If I were not there, it is highly possible that the lunger would get bitten.

Many times I have had to handle dogs that are not known to me, and in stressful situations. I know every time that I run the risk of being bitten, because of the dog's fear. That is a risk I take.

However, sometimes there are dogs that I do not want to approach and I will then call for assistance.

If I do not like what I see in the dog's demeanour then I do not plan to spend part of my day at the hospital.

With regards to dogs being reactive, that can very much depend on the circumstances at the time.

If a dog is in calm surroundings, I would like to think that it would be less reactive than in a strange place where it was decidedly out of its comfort zone. The owner should be taking this aspect into account, but a stranger, particularly a child, approaching the dog may not have a clue that the dog is already stressed. Not everybody can read the signs and there are some dogs who are show very little signs of stress before an attack.

I voted NO on this poll, because to allow children to go up to any dog which does not know them, could have tragic consequences.

[pirate]

In an ideal world people would always be polite and ask if the can pat the dog. But alas we dont live in an ideal world and the dogs have to learn to cope with strange people coming up and touching.

If parents or children ask if they can touch l give them a brief lesson on how to touch. If they are really obnoxious pat the the child on the head and go nice kiddy, shove a finger in the mouth check its teeth , hopefuly you wont get bitten saying nice kiddy, if you do get bitten report them and sue the pants off them, this is how you can supplement your income. Normally by this stage the parents have stormed off, but if you see them in the street again make beeline straight to them and start again.

I think that turnabout is fair.

Edited February 6, 2012 by pirate

[Souff]

In an ideal world people would always be polite and ask if the can pat the dog. But alas we dont live in an ideal world and the dogs have to learn to cope with strange people coming up and touching.

No, we do not live in an ideal world and we need to educate more people and their children to use some manners, and to keep their children safe.

Some dogs have been abused by people in their past and if they have been hit by people, it is a huge ask to say they have to learn to cope with little humans who want to hit them too. They do not forget ill-treatment and will not tolerate it again.

I often have one such dog in my care and when we are out I simply tell parents that she does not like children.

She should never be put in a situation where she will be tempted to eat the little blighters, so I make sure that she is never alone and that I am in control of who touches her. That is my responsibility and I tell it like it is.

Should she be muzzled?

Probably yes, because that should send a good strong signal to those people who think they know more than me.

There are dogs out there that should not be patted by children that they don't know or trust.

Teach the kids that they must always ask the handler if it is OK first and the kids and the dogs will be safer.

Souff

[Mags]

From experience having a muzzle on a dog does not make people think twice before letting their kids run up to it screaming and try and hit it - go figure. And they are aggressively rude when the child is asked & then told to stop and they are told it is not OK to approach a dog like this. Its about what their kids want not what makes sense or is in the welfare of the child or the dog.

[Tempus Fugit]

I have lost count of the number of time I have read of children/ adults being bitten by a dog whose owner had given the person permission to pat.

Many lay owners aren't capable of reading their dog's body language, other times a dog that has never shown agression can bite as a pain response to an undetected ear infection, sore spot etc. The dog is then executed.

I also regularly read of guide dog and other assistance dog owners complaining of adults/ children wanting to pat their dogs whilst they are working.

So a culture change to one of ignoring other peoples dogs seems to me appropriate.

Perhaps some DOLers could enlighten us as to what happens in other cultures, eg aboriginal settlements, towns with populations of stray dogs such as in eastern europe,and countries where large dogs are used as livestock guardians. Is there a culture of patting such dogs or ignoring them?

What about other domestic animals, e.g. horses? Would DOLers that are horse owners be comfortable with having adults/ children going up to their horses and patting them - bearing in mind a horse can kick and bite, and some can bolt if frightened?

[m-sass]

The idea IMHO to ask an owner before patting a strange dog is because the owner knows the dog better than you and knows if the dog is likely to be safe when patted by a stranger otherwise you pat a strange dog at your own risk and if the dog bites bad luck.

[Rehnagaede]

I used to be one of those kids who went up to dogs and patted them without asking the owner, however I possessed the sense about me to let the dogs make the first move.

As has been said above, you have no idea what this dog is capable of, yet you're putting your hand in a highly vulnerable position; with kids it also grows out to encompass their face.

This, I think, is exactly why the owner has the right to keep people away from the dog.

The distress that may potentially be caused the the poor pooch may push him/her over the edge, and that's when you get your arse sued and your dog put down because of how "dangerous" it is.

Education, in this area is pretty much THE key element.

For example, if you were a kid, would you go up to a stranger inviting you into their car? Hell no, you were taught about stranger danger. Why can't they have something like that with dogs? Not in the sense that the dogs are dangerous, more that the kids are putting themselves into a potentially dangerous situation.

One could say for kids, it ultimately comes down to the parents, but I don't think so. Some parents can be quite lazy and not even bother to keep their kids on a (figurative, but sometimes literal) leash, which makes them run wild. Yet when there were important messages for the kids at school, everybody perked up. The stranger danger talk, the bicycle safety talk, etc.

And then subtly place them into the anti-piracy ads they have on dvd's. *You wouldn't steal a car* *You wouldn't pat a strange dog* :p

[Crisovar]

When I was a child it was understood that strange dogs might bite, somewhere along the years it has been lost.

[newfsie]

I said no, but i train my dogs to be tolerant of people coming up and petting.........i think it is an important skills for dogs to have. But I do not expect every dog to be able to do it.

I have now got four dogs who I am quite happy to walk in crowds and be petted by kids/adults......With one dog, it is the big towering men she still worries about , but it is getting less. That is just to do with her past

[Dame Aussie]

When I was a child it was understood that strange dogs might bite, somewhere along the years it has been lost.

Yes, such a simple thing. We have lost a lot of our common sense I think

[m-sass]

When I was a child it was understood that strange dogs might bite, somewhere along the years it has been lost.

Yes, such a simple thing. We have lost a lot of our common sense I think

I was taught the same thing and would have gotten into serious trouble from my parents if anything arose from me interferring with a strange dog. My mum's favorite saying, "we have our own dogs to pat", leave other people's dogs alone. I don't allow strangers or kids to pat my dogs ever, not because they pose a threat, they don't but, I do not ever want a situation arising where something goes wrong and one of mine bites someone, I don't care if I come across unfriendly and un co-operative with strangers, they are nothing to me and they don't pay my mortgage, my dog's safety and well being is first and foremost to keep them away from potential problems and litigation the way things are these days.

I stepped in between one of mine and a kid not long ago preventing the kid from patting my dog.......the kid asked if he bites and I told her yes he may do? The kid's mother then has a go at me saying that I shouldn't tell kids that dogs can bite which can psycologically scar them......I was told exactly that as a kid and the psycolological scarring I received was the need to own no less than two dogs throughout my life. I don't buy this crap, kids need to be taught reality strange dogs can bite like cars can hit you if you step out randomly on the road?

[TheCheekyMonster]

I think permission should always be granted..... its the polite thing to do

[sandgrubber]

When I was a child it was understood that strange dogs might bite, somewhere along the years it has been lost.

When I was a child this was understood too, and kids still got bitten. The difference is that people are more likely to make a fuss if their kid gets nipped or ripped by your dog than they were some decades back. Kids don't always do what they are told. Toddlers often don't understand what they are told . . . and the education programs teaching kids to act sensibly around dogs often don't start until the kids are five or six years old.

If your dog is likely to do damage that requires more treatment than a few stitches, you should take protective measures, like a muzzle and liability insurance. Don't expect tolerance if little Johnny wanders away from Mum, tries to pat Guardian Fido, and ends out needing major surgery.

p.s. I had permission to pat the Irish setter who gave me a good bite to the face when I was four. My parents took it in stride. I can still find the tiny scar among my face wrinkles, but no one else would notice it.

[Muttaburra]

Sorry if I've paged ahead of all comments, just want to add that as I understand it a "good K9 citizen" that is tethered in a public place should allow a Ranger to approach and check the tag etc. etc. Not a good idea to leave a dog in that situation if it is likely to bite, or fear aggressive etc., that is putting the dog in jeopardy and ignorant people who approach it.

However if an owner is at hand, and the dog is on a leash, they should be asked whether the dog is approachable. If the dog is not approachable the owner should turn quickly and walk away. The dog however should be under control if in public, even in that situation.

It is ignorance to allow a child to rush over, or extend a hand to a dog without asking first, small children are especially unco-ordinated and can frighten dogs. Both my dogs were raised with children and luckily they are very good with them, even so I usually crouch down to the dog and child's level, holding the dog firmly near the collar so that it can't jump up, then supervise any contact carefully if the parent has asked if the child can pat the dog.

I believe it is a community issue and children and parents should be educated.

[mumof4girls]

As an Educator with the Responsible Pet Ownership program, we teach all children and parents some basic rules about approaching dogs.

No owner

No lead

No touch!

The children are taught the safe way to approach a dog& owner if they wish to pat the dog.

Walk up slowly and stop 3 big steps away.

Ask permission.

Let the dog smell the back of your hand.

Pat the dog gently on the back, don't touch the head and don't lean over the top of the dog.

A 4yr old pre-school child can understand all of this, pity about some adults.

Sensible post. Good manners linked with caution when dealing with an 'unknown'.

And it would apply to many other situations where you'd be intruding on someone else's space/ belongings. So I put 'good manners' first.

Yesterday, when walking our 2 tibbies, I met a 6 yr old boy.

He asked, 'Can I pat your dogs?'

I answered, 'Would you like to make it a cuddle?'

'Yes, please!', he said.

I told him to kneel down & open his arms a bit. Next thing he had a gentle armful of gold.

I said to him, 'You were polite and careful. You deserve a big cuddle.' His mother, who'd supervised him, beamed.

Mita that brought a tear to my eye, how beautiful was that encounter :-)..

[TheCheekyMonster]

As an Educator with the Responsible Pet Ownership program, we teach all children and parents some basic rules about approaching dogs.

No owner

No lead

No touch!

The children are taught the safe way to approach a dog& owner if they wish to pat the dog.

Walk up slowly and stop 3 big steps away.

Ask permission.

Let the dog smell the back of your hand.

Pat the dog gently on the back, don't touch the head and don't lean over the top of the dog.

A 4yr old pre-school child can understand all of this, pity about some adults.

Sensible post. Good manners linked with caution when dealing with an 'unknown'.

And it would apply to many other situations where you'd be intruding on someone else's space/ belongings. So I put 'good manners' first.

Yesterday, when walking our 2 tibbies, I met a 6 yr old boy.

He asked, 'Can I pat your dogs?'

I answered, 'Would you like to make it a cuddle?'

'Yes, please!', he said.

I told him to kneel down & open his arms a bit. Next thing he had a gentle armful of gold.

I said to him, 'You were polite and careful. You deserve a big cuddle.' His mother, who'd supervised him, beamed.

Mita that brought a tear to my eye, how beautiful was that encounter :-)..

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