dog geek Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Thankyou Steve, for your courteous support. I apologise for being a bit of a troll about all this, I was pretty much inciting a vehement response out of sheer irritation. It was immature, and has led to responses that would lead outsiders to regard our community with some derision. Alyosha and SSM, it is a great relief to have your input, it was causing me some angst that you two in particular were not represented in the respondants... Alyosha, thank you for your estimate of my credibility, I realise it would be based not on our aquaintance, but on your objective view. SSM, I thank you also - and I believe that I made the mistake of clutching at straws in my efforts to provide myself with breeding options, and when lines similar to the ones I was pining after became available, I jumped at them. Increasing anxiety that I was running out of options meant I suffered impaired judgement... but I was never so relieved and ecstatic as when the younger puppy bitch became unexpectedly available. I guess ultimately, holding others to ethical standards that I expect to flex to allow my for own "special" circumstances is inconsistant. This is why I had booked the unsound bitch in for a spey on Monday; my vet is happy to support me in this decision, but in offering his objective opinion I believe I just might have been regarding his input as "enabling"... I must point out (for any audience members who may still care) that the rational tones of individuals who I admire as objective, educated, and experienced in life in general (and not just a "Dog Breed Fundamentalist" :laugh: ) has been far more significant in allowing me to choose to continue with the spey... ... whereas the vituperative censorious responses just make me want to provide the result diametrically opposed to that of the poster... out of sheer perversity. This whole thread has been surprisingly educational - I thank the breeder community for first, providing me with insight into my reasons for having this litter/continuing with this litter; and then, the opportunity to clarify my thoughts on the process. Being able to reach the conclusion I have - to abort the litter, and concentrate on using the bitch puppy with better conformation - will leave me with a feeling of having made the correct choice rather than than the easy choice. I perhaps have been at times deliberately ingenuous, and admittedly snide in my references to other Pom breeders. I hold the opinions I do because the amount of time I spend researching technical and industry journals is considerable. I have done so intensively for the past three years, but for the last eight years I have been engrossed in educating myself not just from print sources, but by quizzing well-established breeders as well. I certainly feel entitled to regard my self as have done more preparation than the average new breeder. And finally - this has been another learning curve in my progression as a breeder of purebreed dogs. I just hope it is not my last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I didnt name anyone as being a wombat or say anyone in particular was behaving as a school yard bully - I haven't personally attacked anyone - my comments were generic,no posts were quoted nothing specific aimed or intended more than generally and if anyone thinks they were aimed at them then perhaps thats indicative of them knowing they have been across the line because I haven't told anyone who I think is a wombat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Miranda, posting once and disappearing is not really in the spirit of discussion, which is what forums are all about. A fair exchange, back and forth, is what helps us all to learn and share information. I don't think that any of us have defended dog geek particularly, other than as an individual, and an honest and open one at that. None of us have said we would head down the same path, but we are involved with different breeds. It is also a matter of personal preference and knowledge. If all breeders thought the same we wouldn't be human. I'm sure most people involved with dog breeding have heard of, or know of breedings being done involving similar and even greater potential issues. Yet those aren't necessarily discussed openly at all. There is an element of risk involved in most things that we do, including breeding our dogs. What we do is evaluate that risk based on knowledge and calculate whether the risk is acceptable vs the potential outcome. We might even re-evaluate the same situation at any time and find the risk level unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Dog geek: Being able to reach the conclusion I have - to abort the litter, and concentrate on using the bitch puppy with better conformation - will leave me with a feeling of having made the correct choice rather than than the easy choice. At some point all of us face up to this choice, and I have found the maxim that the correct choice is often (not always) the hard one is a good reality check. It is hard, especially when you see people around you playing fast and loose and/or getting immediate rewards for that. I think Espinay is wise tho' when she observes that the price for quick gains in one area may well be to seriously put you back overall. Feel free to PM me if you like, I had to abort a much wanted litter last year for different reasons and it is a tough thing to go through, not the least of which because you have to stick to your guns about what is best for the bitch and the breed against the temptation to just let it all slide on through. I am a dyed in the wool rational, atheist, feminist but even I felt sick on the way to the vet and shed a few tears on the way home. Now tho' I know I did the right thing, and I am glad of it. Dog geek: I perhaps have been at times deliberately ingenuous, and admittedly snide in my references to other Pom breeders. Other breeders are what they are. You know what I think on that score from our experiences in rescue. Like you I've done a ton of preparation but I'm still having moments where I find myself seeing why people do what previously seemed inexplicable to me. Some things are always going to be beyond the pale: raising dogs in filth, using the same top winning dog even tho' it keeps throwing problems, etc etc. But there are good breeders out there, and learning and theory has to be accompanied by practice and experience. Even the bad ones have stuff to teach us, if only as an example of what not to do. This is experience of course, even tho' the litter is not to be, you've learned a tough lesson that will stay with you. And if you can do the right thing here, you will set yourself up to continue to do the right thing, working your "ethics" muscle as it were. It's like the advice I've heard given to new judges, that is, don't start by judging crooked appointments because if you start, you won't be able to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hits the nail on the head, SSM, thankyou for the reassurance and for the support to choose this option. Never an easy thing to do, and I did admire your own stand at the time - which knowledge, having been shared (but not franchised as the Drama Of The Moment In Order For The Audience To Wallow In Emotion En Masse) does provide a precedent - and additionally credibility to your POV. Hi Alyosha, succinct and to the point, also. It is always good to have such a discussion in the public arena - and I would like to mention the private messages I received from other DOLers as being generous and kind in their support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyntervale Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Sorry I have been deliberately quite on this thread because I am really not sufficiently versed to comment. I have my own thoughts and opinions but these are based on much less research and thought than DG has put in. I have known DG for quite some time now and know that she is kind, genuine, open and honest... which as Steve and SSM have mentioned can be more problematic for poor DG than others who chose to hold their own thoughts on their own programs close. Nic, you have made a hard decision, but you have done it with much thought and planning, I wish you the best with your future breeding plans and I have no doubt you will get what you want in the end and some families will find some gorgeous, bright little family members along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I know you have been put through the mill on this but Ive re read through all of this and if you dont mind Im not going to make it any easier . Why have you decided to abort your puppies? Forget about beating yourself up because you did the mating and copped this beating - explain why you think its best for the bitch and her puppies if her puppies are killed as you explained why she appeared to be a fair choice for breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Thank you LOTG, Dawg knows I try.... Hi Steve, no I don't mind, as I said it is a great precedent that there is available an honest and thorough discussion of all angles of a decision like this. I do think that, upon reflection and with hindsight, that there was a fair proportion of "ooo, puppies I love puppies" in my wavering over whether to spey now or not. I still think that the majority of Pom breeders breed without enough thought given to reducing the incidence of disorders related to conformational dysfunction. I also, still, think that the breed is so light in weight that their quality of life is not impaired until the diseases progress far beyond what would be tolerable in animals of even only twice their weight. Additionally, I continue to believe I could produce puppies that, since they are raised to be stable, adjustable, robust little family members, still are fit for their breed purpose. Since I am prepared to euthanase any pup displaying conformation that I would regard as problematic, and that I am prepared to support financially and emotionally any puppy owners if their pup requires treatment down the track, it follows that the more consistently logical path would be to abort this litter. After all - this bitch's lines have now been made redundant by my fortuitous acquisition of the bitch puppy. I was reluctant to "waste" the unsound bitch's lines - I am very attached to the idea of preserving the efforts of earlier breeders, feeling an affinity with previous adherents of this special little breed... ... but really, using this litter to prove my point (that my dog posseses a suite of genes that will correct unsound conformation) is essentially egotistical. Besides, as breeders, we all agree - the money is not the point; the point is that we leave the breed better than we found it. In my particular ethos, this refers to leaving the breed healthier than I find it. I am not responsible for other breeders' choosing the paths they do; but I only wavered from my chosen path because I was letting the difficulties of seeing a way out of my situation (that of being unable to source quality lines for whatever reason) impair my judgement and frustrate one of my basic stated tenets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Well if she has good lines and breeders before you have done as well as you think - and the bitch is already pregnant - and all of the reasons you just gave - as well as you were intending to test them before you decide they go anywhere that the other 5 puppies are doing just fine without any of the extra good things you do and they may just turn out to be just like their nana rather than their Mum and put good stuff in rather than bad stuff - and you dont have any intention at this point in using any for breeding and affecting the future anyway ????? Its none of my business and I will support you which ever way you go but I think you should let it go - not for the money , or to prove anything but because nothing has changed from two days ago than today except you have been belted by people who don't necessarily know what they are talking about - and because it's life and its already cooking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 and because it's life and its already cooking. Can you say more about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Thankyou for your understanding, Steve, it makes a world of difference. But I am not, I am afraid, giving any weight at all to the "it is life therefore it must be born" factor. It is not in my suite of rationalisms, and it may be offensive to you that I do not accord this particular argument any value, for which I apologise. Edited February 4, 2012 by dog geek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 and because it's life and its already cooking. And the potential for long term health issues and the potential puppy owners emotions is much higher risk to take in my eyes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andisa Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Dog geek - I admire you for your decision to abort/spay your bitch, I would do the same if I felt I made the wrong decision to breed a bitch who was not sound - I have removed dogs from my breeding plans for much less than what you have just done and would do it again if necessary. From a different point of view - I have been grooming dogs for around 12 years and the amount of small dogs who are structurally stuffed is very sad indeed, pure and cross breeds. Just yesterday I did a lovely little Poodle pup who is only 8 months old. I first did her at only 12 weeks old and noticed then that both her rear knees were very loose and clicky. She will require expensive surgery on both knees very soon if she is to be given a reasonable chance of a fairly normal life. No one deserves this, selective breeding is very important, not just structure but temperament as well. Pet owners are entitled to the best we can breed - not just anything we can breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 It has certainly been an interesting progression in my viewpoint, Andisa, and thank you for the acknowledgement. Still and all, nothing like a rousing torrent of public humiliation to shock the delusion fluffy thinking out of your system... :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andisa Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 It has certainly been an interesting progression in my viewpoint, Andisa, and thank you for the acknowledgement. Still and all, nothing like a rousing torrent of public humiliation to shock the delusion fluffy thinking out of your system... :laugh: Pretty sure most of us have gone though this at some stage on DOL . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Huh - you are so right, Andisa, I am not at all special, am I? Now. Any takers on my original question? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) I did post a link for you that might help ;) Edited to add....here: My favourite website for coat colour genetics: http://abnormality.p...s.net/genetics/ Edited February 4, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 I did post a link for you that might help ;) Edited to add....here: My favourite website for coat colour genetics: http://abnormality.p...s.net/genetics/ Oops, sorry, espinay2 - I did indeed visit that link, I think I understand it to say that yes, I need to write it with two copies of each particular gene, for ALL the genes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Yes, you do put the genes in pairs - one from each parent. If you know both, you put both. If you don't know if there is a recessive hiding there (such as if one parent is heterozygous for the gene so you dont know if the pup inherited the recessive or the dominant or if the parent itself could have been either heterozygous or homozygous for the dominant), you would put a question mark or list both as an 'or' I guess. For example (using 'made up' recessives and dominants - 'M' being the dominant and 'm' being the recessive) Parent A = MM Parent B = Mm or MM (which will look the same phenotypically) Offspring may be either Mm or MM. Only way you would then know if the pup was Mm is if mated to either Mm or mm it produces mm pups. (as MM mated to mm will only produce Mm which will look like the MM parent - but you will know for sure at least that it is carrying the recessive!) Easier if you have mm to write it down as what you see is what you get rather than working out your possibilities based on what you know of other dogs in the pedigree and their offspring Edited February 4, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hmm.. Okay, I will go away and ponder that. BTW, I am a bit pouty at having done the quiz and finding no answers are available... How do you check your understanding the intricacies if you cannot compare your answers to the correct results...? Cheers, and thank you espinay2! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts