Advice For New Breeder Please

[jr_inoz]

I agree that prog tests are worth the bother, especially if you have an hour's drive to go to the dog. Being within a day or two of the peak is important. If you don't have prog testing at a local vet you may find that, as a vet nurse, you can collect a blood sample and have it analyzed at a human lab. I know Applecross Vet hospital gets their prog readings done at St. John of God (or they used to).

Good luck!

My vet sends the bloods to the local gribbles for prog testing.

[LizT]

Personally I don't see the point of AI, or any other form of interference or "Specialists" UNLESS there are difficulties or there is a problem, such as you are under a deadline timewise??

Just try the natural mating first.

Give nature some credit. :)

Edited January 27, 2012 by LizT

[Tralee]

Personally I don't see the point of AI, or any other form of interference or "Specialists" UNLESS there are difficulties or there is a problem, such as you are under a deadline timewise??

Just try the natural mating first.

Give nature some credit. :)

LizT

I am not trying to single you out from the others but I don't understand that viewpoint at all.

Why wouldn't people want to know something about:

the benefits & methods of manipulating reproduction with emphasis on current production & breeding management systems.

Wasn't that the OP's question?

Are veterinary courses done in vain?

Is there no place in our own infrequent and amateur breeding for:

... the study of theriogenology and reproductive biotechnology in domestic animals. ... anatomy, physiology, husbandry and clinical aspects of puberty, oestrous cycles, gestation, parturition, and the post-partum period, management procedures to optimise reproductive rates; artificial insemination and oestrous synchronisation.

Px

Edited January 28, 2012 by Tralee

[espinay2]

AI has its place (Frozen semen, dog a long way away, timing etc) but we have to be VERY careful we are not using it as a substitute because the dogs can't physically mate naturally. We should IMO be selecting for dogs that mate easily and naturally. Problems with not being able to reproduce easily can be passed down the line - selection for dogs and bitches that are good natural producers is just as important as any other feature a breeder selects for. Science is all well and good, but it can not and should not replace nature.

[LizT]

Personally I don't see the point of AI, or any other form of interference or "Specialists" UNLESS there are difficulties or there is a problem, such as you are under a deadline timewise??

Just try the natural mating first.

Give nature some credit. :)

LizT

I am not trying to single you out from the others but I don't understand that viewpoint at all.

Why wouldn't people want to know something about:

the benefits & methods of manipulating reproduction with emphasis on current production & breeding management systems.

Wasn't that the OP's question?

Are veterinary courses done in vain?

Is there no place in our own infrequent and amateur breeding for:

... the study of theriogenology and reproductive biotechnology in domestic animals. ... anatomy, physiology, husbandry and clinical aspects of puberty, oestrous cycles, gestation, parturition, and the post-partum period, management procedures to optimise reproductive rates; artificial insemination and oestrous synchronisation.

Px

AI has its place (Frozen semen, dog a long way away, timing etc) but we have to be VERY careful we are not using it as a substitute because the dogs can't physically mate naturally. We should IMO be selecting for dogs that mate easily and naturally. Problems with not being able to reproduce easily can be passed down the line - selection for dogs and bitches that are good natural producers is just as important as any other feature a breeder selects for. Science is all well and good, but it can not and should not replace nature.

What espinay2 said. :D

But in seriousness science has it's place ...but..if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I mean how would you even know if your dogs are "good natural producers" if you keep 'pfaffing around" with it's breeding?? As a example I will attempt to breed my bitch who produced a singleton on the first attempt again, but if she has another singleton litter, that's it for her, despite the pup being 100% healthy. And should her pup also produce a singleton that is where it will stop. Although, many would say it is the epitome of producing "only to continue". ;)

But I do agree that there is merit in the work of the Repro Specialists and in what they do.

Also that there is nothing wrong with learning as much as you can about reproduction as eventually one will be placed in a position where understanding what is happening is tantamount to a sucessful outcome.

Edited January 28, 2012 by LizT

[Tralee]

I mean how would you even know if your dogs are "good natural producers" if you keep 'pfaffing around" with it's breeding?? As a example I will attempt to breed my bitch who produced a singleton on the first attempt again, but if she has another singleton litter, that's it for her, despite the pup being 100% healthy. And should her pup also produce a singleton that is where it will stop. Although, many would say it is the epitome of producing "only to continue". ;)

But I do agree that there is merit in the work of the Repro Specialists and in what they do.

Also that there is nothing wrong with learning as much as you can about reproduction as eventually one will be placed in a position where understanding what is happening is tantamount to a sucessful outcome.

My bitch had a singleton in her first litter.

But I know the reason.

He jumped her right at the end of her cycle even though I was trying to keep them apart for the next season.

Her ovulation rate was obviously low and at the end of her season.

Now, I have had nine calls above the number of dogs produced in a litter.

I alway have more homes than pups.

Let me use an analogy for the place of science.

We produce the most productive cotton yields on the planet.

It well exceeds anything the Americans can do and we do it with much less water.

But, producers are not satisfied with the yields, or the inputs, and science is being employed to increase decrease them respectively.

One of the aims of theriogenology and reproductive technology in small animals is to develop management procedures to optimise reproductive rates.

Undersupply and demand make it practically unavoidable.

Of course, quality cannot be disregarded or the exercise becomes futile.

Regards

Px

[Steve]

Well ,I will try to say this without causing a war.

Some breeds - at least 3 that I am aware of have come to a point where interference has become so common its very difficult to ever get a natural mating , maintain a litter, or whelp a litter without interference.

One in particular the stud dog owners don't like their boys having sex so even finding one which will try and mate naturally is pretty difficult ,the bitches often need progesterone supps to maintain the litter and breeders have to work their hearts out over the pups to keep them alive because they are such awful mothers. There is no such thing in that breed in particular of a dog which doesn't have HD to some extent.

With all other species of animal we respect their peculiarities in their reproductive cycles but with the dog we are controlled on when we mate them. No other breeder of a fertile animal in any other species is told how to manage them.

We want to use the science when it suits us but ignore it when it doesn't fit in with some other convention. Makes no sense.

I usually have 12 - 14 puppies per Maremma litter, Ive never done a prog test on one , Ive done one AI to use an unrelated dog on one - and I have one coming up in the next month with imported semen . I've never had a C section with one or any tiny sign of a whelping problem and they are perfect Mum's . If I struck one now which didn't mate or didn't get pregnant I wouldn't use an AI to fix it. Strange view isnt it ? It is seen as acceptable for a breeder to use AI for no other reason than to try to increase litter size but breeding more litters to have more to choose from is frowned upon.

Working Kelpies have sex without a problem, they maintain their pregnancies without a problem, they whelp without problems - the idea that this person should be advised to have a repo specialist to have puppies when they have the dog on site is in my opinion - nuts. Its a world of breeding dogs gone mad.

[LizT]

Well ,I will try to say this without causing a war.

Some breeds - at least 3 that I am aware of have come to a point where interference has become so common its very difficult to ever get a natural mating , maintain a litter, or whelp a litter without interference.

One in particular the stud dog owners don't like their boys having sex so even finding one which will try and mate naturally is pretty difficult ,the bitches often need progesterone supps to maintain the litter and breeders have to work their hearts out over the pups to keep them alive because they are such awful mothers. There is no such thing in that breed in particular of a dog which doesn't have HD to some extent.

With all other species of animal we respect their peculiarities in their reproductive cycles but with the dog we are controlled on when we mate them. No other breeder of a fertile animal in any other species is told how to manage them.

We want to use the science when it suits us but ignore it when it doesn't fit in with some other convention. Makes no sense.

I usually have 12 - 14 puppies per Maremma litter, Ive never done a prog test on one , Ive done one AI to use an unrelated dog on one - and I have one coming up in the next month with imported semen . I've never had a C section with one or any tiny sign of a whelping problem and they are perfect Mum's . If I struck one now which didn't mate or didn't get pregnant I wouldn't use an AI to fix it. Strange view isnt it ? It is seen as acceptable for a breeder to use AI for no other reason than to try to increase litter size but breeding more litters to have more to choose from is frowned upon.

Working Kelpies have sex without a problem, they maintain their pregnancies without a problem, they whelp without problems - the idea that this person should be advised to have a repo specialist to have puppies when they have the dog on site is in my opinion - nuts. Its a world of breeding dogs gone mad.

Clearly you have a very hardy breed and to mess with that breed, which has managed for what is it, about 2000 years without a "Repo Specialist" would be arrogant to a fault.

When my singleton was diagnosed via ultrasound I was told by those that know far better than me, (not being sarcastic, it's the truth :) ) that an elective C-section was imenent. I was well prepared to follow advice but my vet said that of course a natural birthing was always the better option and we would keep a close eye on my girl. Well she decided she would birth this pup herself and had no difficulty beyond the normal birth and Mother nature handled things brilliantly.

By all means bring in the experts when required in an emergency or such. But for the simple mating of two dogs do we really need IVF type interferences? If we are to maintain hardy virile stock then we must first give them the opportunity to prove themselves. An AI followed by an elective c-section tells the breeder nothing about his stock.

And yes, the OP is breeding a hardy working dog and should be fine doing so without resorting to AI, however this is her choice should she decide to do this. But in asking for advice, my personal opinion is, not necessary.

Save your hard earned cash for the Veterninary emergencies, that like all of us, the fates will subject you to, someday. :)

[Shazzapug]

Its not an additive its an amino acid occurring naturally in meat which if the dog were eating an evolutionary diet would be in the mix .Without the aringine they still have the instinct and they still mate - its just usually a bit quicker after a feed of meat.

Does this explain why my boys and sometimes the girls seem to be horny after eating?

This would be why Yvonne always told me to feed the boy/s Beef when I was trying for a mating. :D

[Shazzapug]

Well ,I will try to say this without causing a war.

Some breeds - at least 3 that I am aware of have come to a point where interference has become so common its very difficult to ever get a natural mating , maintain a litter, or whelp a litter without interference.

One in particular the stud dog owners don't like their boys having sex so even finding one which will try and mate naturally is pretty difficult ,the bitches often need progesterone supps to maintain the litter and breeders have to work their hearts out over the pups to keep them alive because they are such awful mothers. There is no such thing in that breed in particular of a dog which doesn't have HD to some extent.

With all other species of animal we respect their peculiarities in their reproductive cycles but with the dog we are controlled on when we mate them. No other breeder of a fertile animal in any other species is told how to manage them.

We want to use the science when it suits us but ignore it when it doesn't fit in with some other convention. Makes no sense.

I usually have 12 - 14 puppies per Maremma litter, Ive never done a prog test on one , Ive done one AI to use an unrelated dog on one - and I have one coming up in the next month with imported semen . I've never had a C section with one or any tiny sign of a whelping problem and they are perfect Mum's . If I struck one now which didn't mate or didn't get pregnant I wouldn't use an AI to fix it. Strange view isnt it ? It is seen as acceptable for a breeder to use AI for no other reason than to try to increase litter size but breeding more litters to have more to choose from is frowned upon.

Working Kelpies have sex without a problem, they maintain their pregnancies without a problem, they whelp without problems - the idea that this person should be advised to have a repo specialist to have puppies when they have the dog on site is in my opinion - nuts. Its a world of breeding dogs gone mad.

Clearly you have a very hardy breed and to mess with that breed, which has managed for what is it, about 2000 years without a "Repo Specialist" would be arrogant to a fault.

When my singleton was diagnosed via ultrasound I was told by those that know far better than me, (not being sarcastic, it's the truth :) ) that an elective C-section was imenent. I was well prepared to follow advice but my vet said that of course a natural birthing was always the better option and we would keep a close eye on my girl. Well she decided she would birth this pup herself and had no difficulty beyond the normal birth and Mother nature handled things brilliantly.

By all means bring in the experts when required in an emergency or such. But for the simple mating of two dogs do we really need IVF type interferences? If we are to maintain hardy virile stock then we must first give them the opportunity to prove themselves. An AI followed by an elective c-section tells the breeder nothing about his stock.

And yes, the OP is breeding a hardy working dog and should be fine doing so without resorting to AI, however this is her choice should she decide to do this. But in asking for advice, my personal opinion is, not necessary.

Save your hard earned cash for the Veterninary emergencies, that like all of us, the fates will subject you to, someday. :)

Well done...and my 7 year old pug bitch free whelped her singleton too, not a problem...although I was very disappointed there werent any more. :D

[Tapua]

Oh heavens I can't help myself.

I am more interested in why you are breeding this bitch, is it for all the right reasons, that is, for the betterment of the breed or do just want to breed a litter.

Is your bitch a pure bred registered with controlling body of your state ?.

Are you a financial member of that state ?.

Do you hold a breeders prefix ?.

If you can't answear yes to all those questions I would question why you are breeding this bitch. :)

The OP is a registered breeder with the WKC (Working Kelpie Council)

If that is the case EXCELLENT you see I come from a rurual back ground and I know the worth of a good working breed.

So why ask in the first place instead of looking at the OP's earlier posts where she states in another thread that she is a WKC breeder?

Possibly because I didn't have the faintest idea what a WKC :laugh: was. Sorry, but I live in a world of Pure Bred Registered ANKC Dogs.

But that never stops me from admiring a good working dog and the people that breed them.

Oakway with respect the WKC dogs are for the most part pure-bred going back nearly 100 years in accurate records. . Yes F1 mating exists based on proof of working ability a say 3 part kelpie x collie can be mated to a full WKC kelpie and its progeny registered and recorded for future breeding - it only takes 4 generations to ceate a so-called pure bred. In part it is the reason the WKC Kelpie are healthier and have retained their strong working ability compared to the ANKC Kelpie. Having bred both ANKC Kelpies and WKC Kelpies and I love them both - I know where I would prefer to go for a sound working Kelpie WKC Kelpies rock and are the backbone of our rural life.

SLF - Prog test if you must - I never have in kepies and only once with a Lab becasue the stud dog owner demanded it - then I forgot to get the results until after the mating - my vet just laughs at me :)

Do the feel test that Steve suggested, she is bang on about the feel of the vuvla - re the bulb of the nose and the softness of the lip are geat indicators of readiness for mating, I have been doing the same for years. My WKC & Bench Kelpies had noooo trouble working out what to do when the time was right ;) - because they are a touch sensitive breed dont nag them verbally or touch them while they are mating. Have the bithc on a long lead if you must but personally I would put them in a small yard and leave them alone.

I have used an experienced bitch to tease and mate the inexperienced dog to help him learn.

Have you bred your bitch before and is the male an experienced stud? It makes a difference :)Oh & litter size for kelpies - 8 - 12 is normal. My Labs - 8 - 12 is normal. :)

Edited January 28, 2012 by Tapua

[SLF]

wow so much good adivce.

As both the bitch and the dog are experienced, I am hoping to let nature take its course. The fact that these two have produced a litter together before gives me hope.

I have spoken to my vet and the stud dog owner, I am happy to vag swab and prog test, as this is MY first time with my OWN bitch and Im sure I am driving my girl crazy with all the looking and poking and peaking at her every move. It will be her last chance at a litter so I really want to get it right. Also the stud dog owner may not be at my beck and call when the time arrives and I might have to go in alone. So if that is the case, I have my Vet on hand to help out if needed.

I will also take all this advice, good and bad, and sift through it and store it in the memory bank for when my next bitch (who is still too much of a pup to be a mum) is ready for her turn.

A vag swab yesterday showed not significant changes despite vulva swelling the last 4 days. I think if I pinch my nose one more time I might end up like pinocchio!!!

I really do appreciate what you have all contributed, I will keep you posted. Fingers crossed.

Edited January 28, 2012 by SLF