Advice For New Breeder Please

[Steve]

Years ago when AI's first started to become popular I had a very lovely Champion Beagle boy and we tried him over three different girls and got no mating so next time I thought I'd give an AI a try.

Took him and the girl off to the vet and as the vet was collecting him she sort of half hearted made a comment that his penis was deformed - the end bit didn't go hard which was why he couldnt penetrate the bitch when it was time to mate so I called the AI off in case it was something he may pass onto future generations.

The vet didn't think it would and didn't see it as an issue.

I did and while I would have loved to have some of his puppies for me he was telling me something when he wasn't mating and Ive never forgotten it.

So Im not anti AI but sometimes the dogs really do know best.

I think dragging dogs off to the vet for testing stresses them and places them in a spot I'd rather they were not in when their immune systems are lowered so the nose and lip thing has never let me down, its cheaper and less stress on the bitch.

If you feed them a small raw meat meal just before you want them to mate the arginine in the meat produces an instinctual reflex that makes 'em horny and pumps more blood to the penis too.

Feed 'em meat - act like you're not watching and if they havent tied in 15 mins its not time - try again tomorrow.

Easy.

So, would you let the dog tell you what its sperm count is?

I'm not sure about stress and the Vet.

If that's happening its time to change Vet.

Can't the Vet come out to the property, after all a mating in situ with a fresh, uterine AI would be best if that's what the client wanted.

My question is when would the AI be done before, after, next day?

Nice tip about arginine but if it is an additive, its not instinctual. ;)

Regards

Px

Its not an additive its an amino acid occurring naturally in meat which if the dog were eating an evolutionary diet would be in the mix .Without the aringine they still have the instinct and they still mate - its just usually a bit quicker after a feed of meat.

[SLF]

oakway- then perhaps of passing judgement and not being helpful you should improve your knowledge of pure-bred breeders in this country. WKC animals can also be registered with the ANKC.

quote

"Possibly because I didn't have the faintest idea what a WKC was. Sorry, but I live in a world of Pure Bred Registered ANKC Dogs."

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[Tralee]

SLF

Please, kindly let us know what you decide to do, and the what the outcome is, as we are not far behind you.

Px

[Janba]

oakway- then perhaps of passing judgement and not being helpful you should improve your knowledge of pure-bred breeders in this country. WKC animals can also be registered with the ANKC.

quote

"Possibly because I didn't have the faintest idea what a WKC was. Sorry, but I live in a world of Pure Bred Registered ANKC Dogs."

\

WKC dogs can only be registered on the sporting registry of your states CC not on the ANKC registry. The sproting register allows you to compete in ANKC dog sports without having to desex your dog but you can't compete in conformation or register your dogs offspring except as a sporting registry dog. There were a couple kennels around with dual registered kelpies.

The WKC is still a legitimate registry and would register more kelpies per year than the ANKC

[SLF]

This is true Janbar, but I do know there are some kelpie breeders registered with both associations, even if I am not. There are not many of them, and one day I hope to add myself to that list.

[Janba]

This is true Janbar, but I do know there are some kelpie breeders registered with both associations, even if I am not. There are not many of them, and one day I hope to add myself to that list.

You would need to start off with dual registered dogs as the ANKC stud book is closed registry- I don't know if the WKC will register ANKC kelpies. I do not know if any overseas kennel clubs recognise WKC dogs and admit them to their registry like they do with the ISDS (International Sheepdog Society) for border collies. The dual registered BCs in this country have been imported or are offspring of imported dogs.

[SLF]

I have not been informed that that WKC will not register ANKC registered animals. However I understand the limitations on a ANKC registed dog.

thankyou, Janba :)

[Jumabaar]

This is true Janbar, but I do know there are some kelpie breeders registered with both associations, even if I am not. There are not many of them, and one day I hope to add myself to that list.

You would need to start off with dual registered dogs as the ANKC stud book is closed registry- I don't know if the WKC will register ANKC kelpies. I do not know if any overseas kennel clubs recognise WKC dogs and admit them to their registry like they do with the ISDS (International Sheepdog Society) for border collies. The dual registered BCs in this country have been imported or are offspring of imported dogs.

Some loopholes have been closed (not sure if ANKC can still gain WKC registration, and it means already having access to some duel registered stock- which means a fair amount of compromise IMO because there is such a limited gene pool). This is all written in the WKC rules.

but apparently a new loophole has accidentally been created overseas. But even then it would take a fair few generations of breeding O/S to bring anything back duel registered. (but this has been worked out through translation and so it is third hand information)

Edited January 26, 2012 by Jumabaar

[oakway]

oakway- then perhaps of passing judgement and not being helpful you should improve your knowledge of pure-bred breeders in this country. WKC animals can also be registered with the ANKC.

quote

"Possibly because I didn't have the faintest idea what a WKC was. Sorry, but I live in a world of Pure Bred Registered ANKC Dogs."

\

I have not been been able to find that ruling = where working kelpies may be registered with ANKC.

It appears to me that you may be able to register with ANKC Sporting registry. I was under the impression that working dogs had their own registry.

[SLF]

Working dogs do have their own registry, however like I stated in an earlier post there are a limited few breeders that have dual registration.

However, this is not what my original post was about, and hope that we can move back to that topic.

Thanks to Janba and Jumabaar, I will talk with the WKC and see if they can clarify.

Edited January 26, 2012 by SLF

[Jumabaar]

Working dogs do have their own registry, however like I stated in an earlier post there are a limited few breeders that have dual registration.

However, this is not what my original post was about, and hope that we can move back to that topic.

Thanks to Janba and Jumabaar, I will talk with the WKC and see if they can clarify.

Clarification

http://www.wkc.org.au/WKC-ByLaws.php subset 12.6

[Tralee]

WKC, WCK, CKW, CWK, KWC, KCW,

Doesn't anybody use the protocol for abbreviations?

Is it World Kennel Council (WKC) ???

Edit. It's OK.

Working Kelpie Council of Australia (WKC)

Edited January 26, 2012 by Tralee

[Jumabaar]

WKC, WCK, CKW, CWK, KWC, KCW,

Doesn't anybody use the protocol for abbreviations?

Is it World Kennel Council (WKC) ???

Do you mean World Kennel Club? I had never even heard of them before lol. WKC automatically means Working Kelpie Council to me.

Since this has diverted OT (off topic) to a discussion about Different Registries for the Australian Kelpie, using terms such as the WKC, ANKC, AKC, etc (etcetera) makes sense to me?? Not sure what your talking about.... Even google recognises WKC as Working Kelpie Council as its top hit!!

Often abbreviations must be put in context. Its a forum- if you don't know what something means ask or google without the extra snobbery

Edited January 26, 2012 by Jumabaar

[SLF]

Tralee if you are confused it is Working Kelpie Council.

Australian kelpies are/can be registerd under two seperate bodies, WKC for 'working' dogs and ANKC for 'show' dogs, in short it is due to the development of the breed and the need for the working dog to have different qualities than the show dog.

It is a bit complicated and some grey areas, as Jumabaa has pointed out.

However I didnt meant to start a thread on WKC v ANKC, I just had a question about joining my dog.

[Jumabaar]

Tralee if you are confused it is Working Kelpie Council.

Australian kelpies are/can be registerd under two seperate bodies, WKC for 'working' dogs and ANKC for 'show' dogs, in short it is due to the development of the breed and the need for the working dog to have different qualities than the show dog.

It is a bit complicated and some grey areas, as Jumabaa has pointed out.

However I didnt meant to start a thread on WKC v ANKC, I just had a question about joining my dog.

Good luck with your litter.

I wish it were possible to duel register dogs- it would probably get me back into herding and show a few people that smart dogs can be pretty and pretty dogs can get a little muddy too!!

[Tralee]

Tralee if you are confused it is Working Kelpie Council.

Australian kelpies are/can be registerd under two seperate bodies, WKC for 'working' dogs and ANKC for 'show' dogs, in short it is due to the development of the breed and the need for the working dog to have different qualities than the show dog.

It is a bit complicated and some grey areas, as Jumabaa has pointed out.

However I didnt meant to start a thread on WKC v ANKC, I just had a question about joining my dog.

Yep.

Thanks.

I can see that a four generation pedigree is required for export.

But a generation can be 3/4.

I hope that means a 3/4 WKC registation.

Anyway -

I've always wanted to use that emoticon.

PX

[Janba]

However, this is not what my original post was about, and hope that we can move back to that topic.

I don't know if you have ever seen a fully erect dog penis - it is huge and long and would put a human male to shame. Most of the sperm is ejaculated at the start and would be deposited further up the vagina than in a vaginal AI. During the tie prostatic fluid (sp) is released and this nourishes the sperm and increases it longevity and mobility.

With a trancervical AI a scope is put up the vagina and a thin tube is threaded through it and through the cervix into the vagina. If the vet has trouble inserting the tube through the cervix the vet may have to ultrasound to determine how the cervix is positioned. This means you need a clean space, access to power and an easily handled bitch if you do it at home plus an additional cost compared a vaginal AI.

If you get a natural mating or even better 2 you will have just as good a good chance of a pregnancy compared to a natural and an AI. If you are really worried have the dogs semen evaluated before mating.

[espinay2]

Can't the Vet come out to the property, after all a mating in situ with a fresh, uterine AI would be best if that's what the client wanted.

You do know that most vets would not have the knowledge or equipment to do an transcervical insemination?

The best that most could do is a vaginal AI.

Well, the article I cited quotes the probably of a fresh intrauterine AI above 80% while vaginal AI just 50-50.

So are you talking about most Vets or reproduction specialists?

If I was going to pay the money, then I would want it done as I requested.

Don't get me started on most Vets, here in the breeders forum.

Px

Px

your the one saying get a vet to come to the property to do something they most likely do not have the skill or equipment to do the job safely. No good quoting figures for something that's not very feasible to do unless the OP is willing to travel with the two dogs to a repo vet who does do the transcervical insemination. And not all repo vets do TCI's

The video posted in an earlier thread shows why: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/232076-video-of-a-tci/

Not the sort of equipment the average vet would be carting around with them.

For those who want to know more about different AI methods I also recomment Dr Robert Hutchison's video "Maximising Conception in the Bitch"

SLF good luck with you mating and let us know how it goes and what you do!!

[puglvr]

Its not an additive its an amino acid occurring naturally in meat which if the dog were eating an evolutionary diet would be in the mix .Without the aringine they still have the instinct and they still mate - its just usually a bit quicker after a feed of meat.

Does this explain why my boys and sometimes the girls seem to be horny after eating?

[Steve]

Its not an additive its an amino acid occurring naturally in meat which if the dog were eating an evolutionary diet would be in the mix .Without the aringine they still have the instinct and they still mate - its just usually a bit quicker after a feed of meat.

Does this explain why my boys and sometimes the girls seem to be horny after eating?

Im guessing Not unless there is a bitch on heat somewhere close.

However arginine causes the blood vessels in the genitals of both male and female dogs [ and humans] to relax and more blood flow to them

Edited January 27, 2012 by Steve