fifi Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Far out, between the unwelcome and the abtruse its a wonder newbies hang in there at all SLF, if you are prog testing and you get a couple of natural matings preferably with a tie, over a few days, I'd leave it at that. But if you get only slip matings, then I'd go for a couple of fresh AI's If you have any concerns, you could always do a fresh collection of the boy and have a look at the semen quality. welcome to the breeders forum :) fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Years ago when AI's first started to become popular I had a very lovely Champion Beagle boy and we tried him over three different girls and got no mating so next time I thought I'd give an AI a try. Took him and the girl off to the vet and as the vet was collecting him she sort of half hearted made a comment that his penis was deformed - the end bit didn't go hard which was why he couldnt penetrate the bitch when it was time to mate so I called the AI off in case it was something he may pass onto future generations. The vet didn't think it would and didn't see it as an issue. I did and while I would have loved to have some of his puppies for me he was telling me something when he wasn't mating and Ive never forgotten it. So Im not anti AI but sometimes the dogs really do know best. I think dragging dogs off to the vet for testing stresses them and places them in a spot I'd rather they were not in when their immune systems are lowered so the nose and lip thing has never let me down, its cheaper and less stress on the bitch. If you feed them a small raw meat meal just before you want them to mate the arginine in the meat produces an instinctual reflex that makes 'em horny and pumps more blood to the penis too. Feed 'em meat - act like you're not watching and if they havent tied in 15 mins its not time - try again tomorrow. Easy. So, would you let the dog tell you what its sperm count is? I'm not sure about stress and the Vet. If that's happening its time to change Vet. Can't the Vet come out to the property, after all a mating in situ with a fresh, uterine AI would be best if that's what the client wanted. My question is when would the AI be done before, after, next day? Nice tip about arginine but if it is an additive, its not instinctual. ;) Regards Px Edited January 26, 2012 by Tralee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 SLF, if you are prog testing and you get a couple of natural matings preferably with a tie, over a few days, I'd leave it at that. fifi I agree, there is no need to do AI's unless you are unable to get a natural mating for some reason or you only manage to get a slip. BTW it is very easy to do your own AI's, I think there's a site on the net that gives instructions or you could find an experienced breeder who could show you how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 As you can see, there are lots of opinions on this. You'll probably find lots of opinions among reproductive specialists too. And amazingly, everyone gets puppies most of the time, and if you go through enough matings, chances are good you'll end out with one that doesn't take. Then you'll get lots of opinions about why it didn't take. I agree that prog tests are worth the bother, especially if you have an hour's drive to go to the dog. Being within a day or two of the peak is important. If you don't have prog testing at a local vet you may find that, as a vet nurse, you can collect a blood sample and have it analyzed at a human lab. I know Applecross Vet hospital gets their prog readings done at St. John of God (or they used to). I seem to remember, long ago, a repro specialist suggesting some meds for an older bitch that hasn't whelped for some years . . . some hormonal stuff that causes sloughing of the coating over the uterus a bit and make it easier for fertilized eggs to stick to the surface. I can't remember the details, and it may need to be done some months before the mating. Someone else may be able to fill you in on this. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLF Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Thankyou to those with kind advise. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Far out, between the unwelcome and the abtruse its a wonder newbies hang in there at all SLF, if you are prog testing and you get a couple of natural matings preferably with a tie, over a few days, I'd leave it at that. But if you get only slip matings, then I'd go for a couple of fresh AI's If you have any concerns, you could always do a fresh collection of the boy and have a look at the semen quality. welcome to the breeders forum :) fifi Agree. Natural if you can. AI only if you have to. Have fun! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilaryo Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Far out, between the unwelcome and the abtruse its a wonder newbies hang in there at all SLF, if you are prog testing and you get a couple of natural matings preferably with a tie, over a few days, I'd leave it at that. But if you get only slip matings, then I'd go for a couple of fresh AI's If you have any concerns, you could always do a fresh collection of the boy and have a look at the semen quality. welcome to the breeders forum :) fifi Sensible advice as usual Fifi ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Sensible advice as usual Fifi ;) Thanks Hilary, you & others were very friendly & helpful too :) I just think if we can garner someone is genuine, we need to educate & mentor where we can. (and my little brain likes to keep things simple so I can understand :laugh: ) Not all of us are lucky enough to have had or have wonderful mentors or guidance on this rocky path. SLF, you'll find that most of the breeders here are very helpful, but sometimes wary due to being exploited and disappointed by back yard breeders. fifi edited...need more coffee.... Edited January 26, 2012 by fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Oh heavens I can't help myself. I am more interested in why you are breeding this bitch, is it for all the right reasons, that is, for the betterment of the breed or do just want to breed a litter. Is your bitch a pure bred registered with controlling body of your state ?. Are you a financial member of that state ?. Do you hold a breeders prefix ?. If you can't answear yes to all those questions I would question why you are breeding this bitch. :) The OP is a registered breeder with the WKC (Working Kelpie Council) If that is the case EXCELLENT you see I come from a rurual back ground and I know the worth of a good working breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Hi. I just want to make a point about the 'slip.' Since the first mating, my dogs will slip several times before a tie. The bitch sits and the dog has no choice. But it is like they have worked out how to have sex. :laugh: Eventually, the dog decides to hold on and she can't throw him off. He practically 'rapes' her. Its very forceful. Then without fail they tie. So, I guess I understand that some pairs don't get to the tie. Px Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Can't the Vet come out to the property, after all a mating in situ with a fresh, uterine AI would be best if that's what the client wanted. you do that most vets would not have the knowledge or equipement to do an transcervical insemination? The best that most could do is a vaginal AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Oh heavens I can't help myself. I am more interested in why you are breeding this bitch, is it for all the right reasons, that is, for the betterment of the breed or do just want to breed a litter. Is your bitch a pure bred registered with controlling body of your state ?. Are you a financial member of that state ?. Do you hold a breeders prefix ?. If you can't answear yes to all those questions I would question why you are breeding this bitch. :) The OP is a registered breeder with the WKC (Working Kelpie Council) If that is the case EXCELLENT you see I come from a rurual back ground and I know the worth of a good working breed. So why ask in the first place instead of looking at the OP's earlier posts where she states in another thread that she is a WKC breeder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Can't the Vet come out to the property, after all a mating in situ with a fresh, uterine AI would be best if that's what the client wanted. You do know that most vets would not have the knowledge or equipment to do an transcervical insemination? The best that most could do is a vaginal AI. Well, the article I cited quotes the probably of a fresh intrauterine AI above 80% while vaginal AI just 50-50. So are you talking about most Vets or reproduction specialists? If I was going to pay the money, then I would want it done as I requested. Don't get me started on most Vets, here in the breeders forum. Px Px Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I can't see the point in doing an AI if you get a natural mating with a tie. If you can't get a natural mating I would ask why not especially if the stud dog is experienced. The last time a bitch came to my dog we didn't get a mating even though the bitch was prog tested and standing and the dog experienced. We took them to the vet and did an AI that resulted in one pup, an emergency caesarean and the pup dead. In a breed that is normally has no problems with mating and whelping there was a reason why the mating didn't occur. I personally will not do an AI again if I don't get a natural mating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) I can't see the point in doing an AI if you get a natural mating with a tie. If you can't get a natural mating I would ask why not especially if the stud dog is experienced. The last time a bitch came to my dog we didn't get a mating even though the bitch was prog tested and standing and the dog experienced. We took them to the vet and did an AI that resulted in one pup, an emergency caesarean and the pup dead. In a breed that is normally has no problems with mating and whelping there was a reason why the mating didn't occur. I personally will not do an AI again if I don't get a natural mating. Sure. Understood. And that just reinforces what Steve said about mating being natural and the way it could be done. The article I cited quotes a mating + AI The OP inquired about Mating and an AI. You yourself conclude with the same intention. I am also considering a double fertilisation in this way, hence the reason I have kept the article. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Once again, "Which methods, with which dogs, under which conditions, will be the most efficacious." Regards Edited January 26, 2012 by Tralee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Can't the Vet come out to the property, after all a mating in situ with a fresh, uterine AI would be best if that's what the client wanted. You do know that most vets would not have the knowledge or equipment to do an transcervical insemination? The best that most could do is a vaginal AI. Well, the article I cited quotes the probably of a fresh intrauterine AI above 80% while vaginal AI just 50-50. So are you talking about most Vets or reproduction specialists? If I was going to pay the money, then I would want it done as I requested. Don't get me started on most Vets, here in the breeders forum. Px Px your the one saying get a vet to come to the property to do something they most likely do not have the skill or equipment to do the job safely. No good quoting figures for something that's not very feasible to do unless the OP is willing to travel with the two dogs to a repo vet who does do the transcervical insemination. And not all repo vets do TCI's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Oh heavens I can't help myself. I am more interested in why you are breeding this bitch, is it for all the right reasons, that is, for the betterment of the breed or do just want to breed a litter. Is your bitch a pure bred registered with controlling body of your state ?. Are you a financial member of that state ?. Do you hold a breeders prefix ?. If you can't answear yes to all those questions I would question why you are breeding this bitch. :) The OP is a registered breeder with the WKC (Working Kelpie Council) If that is the case EXCELLENT you see I come from a rurual back ground and I know the worth of a good working breed. So why ask in the first place instead of looking at the OP's earlier posts where she states in another thread that she is a WKC breeder? Possibly because I didn't have the faintest idea what a WKC :laugh: was. Sorry, but I live in a world of Pure Bred Registered ANKC Dogs. But that never stops me from admiring a good working dog and the people that breed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 ok, Tralee- I live 400kms from Monash, and my vet who has many years experience in AI etc consults closely with the Vets at Monash. I have been getting their advice from our pre-breeding health check and will continue to do so . You are right, years working in a vet clinic has not prepared me very well for this, I have alot to learn. Oakway- I mean that we would try to mate naturally, then later take a fresh sample and do AI on the spot. But I am gathering that this is probably not much better than a 'mating' and if I were to bother perhaps an intra-uterine AI would be better. But if I get a good mating or two then why bother interferring at all and just let nature take its course...right? in effect dont try too hard, just let dogs do what dogs do The article linked earlier did not actually have a control of just natural mating to compare the results to. And since the natural mating increased litter size in both circumstances it may have been interesting to see just how much value add the AI gave. It doesn't indicate if the number of AI would have impacted on the results, and some of the sample sizes are rather small. It is not (as far as I can see) a study of AI vs Natural mating, it is a study about the different forms of AI so tells you nothing about the advantage from doing a number of natural matings or doing a natural mating and an AI. I would also aim just for a natural mating or two. I got 5 pups from a fresh Vaginal AI, and 8 pups from 2 natural matings.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I can't see the point in doing an AI if you get a natural mating with a tie. If you can't get a natural mating I would ask why not especially if the stud dog is experienced. The last time a bitch came to my dog we didn't get a mating even though the bitch was prog tested and standing and the dog experienced. We took them to the vet and did an AI that resulted in one pup, an emergency caesarean and the pup dead. In a breed that is normally has no problems with mating and whelping there was a reason why the mating didn't occur. I personally will not do an AI again if I don't get a natural mating. Would you not get a vet check to see if it is a simple reason as to why the mating did not occur? Such as with my girl and her stricture (which is another inexperienced vet story - the vet who checked her was a fool and did not find it, it was found when we went for the fresh AI with a repro vet)? And then decide to AI or not based on the outcome of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I would try for a natural mating, then a second 2 days later. You have said both the bitch and stud dog are experienced so I would not envisage too many issues If that was not successful then I would consider AI depending on the exact circumstances. Goodluck, love a good Kelpie :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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