Elise+Hudson Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Hey guys! I am not sure if this is the best place to post this, but I am hoping for a few ideas suggestions from more experienced trainers/exhibitors! Hudson has had close to 3 months out of the ring now, and I have been training with him again trying to get a more solid stack and we have hit a few road blocks. In the gap between showing, he has started sitting whenever we stop. I am getting this a lot better now and crossing fingers he gets the idea by this weekend. But my other problem is he is sinking backward in the stack to almost an a-frame position. I have tried trying to lure him forward but he always breaks before he comes up over his front legs, and if I move his front legs back - the hind legs are too much underneath him. He is entered in the NSW Puppy of the year this weekend, and I have been trying for a while now and obviously not going about this the right way, so was hoping to try and do something a little different before this weekend! Any ideas? Surely I am not the only one this has happened too with a young dog? He is my first ever show dog. :D He used to stack like a little champ (guess I was spoiled!) This is the best shot I could get the other day, so usually a bit worse than this Edited January 24, 2012 by Elise+Hudson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chequeredblackdog Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Sorry no ideas about the stacking, but can I say he is a STUNNING little boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elise+Hudson Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 :D Thanks CBD, I am slightly biased.. Best first dog I think anyone could ask for. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 here is a detailed write up of 1 way of getting it: http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page40/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smisch Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 With the lab I started teaching him to associate the snake chain with standing and i use to manually correct his feet... It did it involve me holding a tight leash and chain but after alot of persevere he understood and even started self correcting.. I'll see if when the OH is home I can get him to post as he is much more experienced in training show dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natsu chan Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Is he doing this when ever you stack him or when the judge goes to go over him? I am finding if I want to do multiple sports with mine I need to stick to one sort of lead for showing (and show training) and another for other things as they get older it doesn't matter so much as they pick up on other cues but as babies it helps. My little girl will self stack in her show lead now but will do auto sits in her usual training leash/check chain set. I think Smisch is proabbly right and that you probably have to stack him manually for awhile. If it's the judge going over him that's the problem get him out and about and start by crouching next to him and letting people you trust to handle him and when he will stand calmly and still start increasing the difficulty by standing next to him. This does work but it won't work in a week. Good luck though he's a lovely boy, I do like the blues they're so pretty! Edited to add~ How old is he? It could be that he's going through his second fear period and that is causing him to want to shrink back out of uncertainty. Edited January 24, 2012 by Natsu chan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 My juvenile oy has done this since he was a minor and it drives me nuts. Add a dose of stubborness so that the more you try and fix it the worse he does t. I've had several mre experienced folk take him and say the equivalent of, "you just do it like this..." and he has won out each time. :rolleyes: The best thing I have found is increase the work on the free stack, standing in front of him. On a manual stack I have to take bait big enough to let him nibble and chew while stretching up and forward to maintain his interest and stop him sinking back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canine fun sports Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 My juvenile oy has done this since he was a minor and it drives me nuts. Add a dose of stubborness so that the more you try and fix it the worse he does t. I am probably butting in here where I shouldn't because I have not been in the show ring for more than 20 years. But labelling a dog as stubborn because he sinks back when you try to get him to stand nicely has just irritated me enough to make me write. Dogs probably do not even understand the concept of stubborness. They lean back because they are not enjoying themselves. They do not likes to be pulled and pushed into place. It also invokes the "opposition relfex". If you pull them forward, their reflex is to pull back against it. In fact, one of the best ways to shift the dog's centre of gravity forward is to pull it back by the tail then release it. (Difficult with a Aussie without at tail, I realise!) As a dog trainer who remembers just a little about showing dogs, I would suggest that you get you dog into the approximate position you want, put a bit of gentle pressure on him the opposite way to what you want - as though you are pushing him to lean back. When you release that pressure he will rock forward again. At that moment give a reward marker (use a clicker if you use one) then treat the dog. Let him continue to nibble on the treat while he is leaning forward over his front. I would vary it by sometimes throwing the treat ahead of him and releasing him to run to it. This will keep his attention forward. I have not tried any of this training. I have not needed to teach a dog to stack. It just makes sense to me as a dog trainer. Make the show ring fun. Associate it with games. Do not associate it with a place where you get pushed and pulled around. I did not look at it closely but at a quick glance I suspect that the link http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page40/ that was given in a previous post is well worth the read. I also recommend their section on "dominance". I do not agree with everything in that articles, but it gives a good understanding that we should not try to give human interpretations (eg being stubborn) to our canine partners. They do not have the same way of thinking as we humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toshman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 My juvenile oy has done this since he was a minor and it drives me nuts. Add a dose of stubborness so that the more you try and fix it the worse he does t. I am probably butting in here where I shouldn't because I have not been in the show ring for more than 20 years. But labelling a dog as stubborn because he sinks back when you try to get him to stand nicely has just irritated me enough to make me write. Dogs probably do not even understand the concept of stubborness. They lean back because they are not enjoying themselves. They do not likes to be pulled and pushed into place. It also invokes the "opposition relfex". If you pull them forward, their reflex is to pull back against it. In fact, one of the best ways to shift the dog's centre of gravity forward is to pull it back by the tail then release it. (Difficult with a Aussie without at tail, I realise!) As a dog trainer who remembers just a little about showing dogs, I would suggest that you get you dog into the approximate position you want, put a bit of gentle pressure on him the opposite way to what you want - as though you are pushing him to lean back. When you release that pressure he will rock forward again. At that moment give a reward marker (use a clicker if you use one) then treat the dog. Let him continue to nibble on the treat while he is leaning forward over his front. I would vary it by sometimes throwing the treat ahead of him and releasing him to run to it. This will keep his attention forward. I have not tried any of this training. I have not needed to teach a dog to stack. It just makes sense to me as a dog trainer. Make the show ring fun. Associate it with games. Do not associate it with a place where you get pushed and pulled around. I did not look at it closely but at a quick glance I suspect that the link http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page40/ that was given in a previous post is well worth the read. I also recommend their section on "dominance". I do not agree with everything in that articles, but it gives a good understanding that we should not try to give human interpretations (eg being stubborn) to our canine partners. They do not have the same way of thinking as we humans. Excellent post, Le I was also going to mention the opposition reflex until I realised the dog had no tail, but you suggested another way to do this! Sue Ailsby is great - and there is a book called "Click To Win - Clicker Training for the Show Ring" by Karen Pryor which is good. I always prefer to see dogs free-stacked in the ring, rather than being man-handled into some semblance of a natural stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 agree with cfs. I have had two dogs do this to me before my most recent pup going through the training... i trained completely differently this time. Everything was done with a clicker and reward based training. I also did this with her mother (Ari) when she started playing up in minor - I clicker trained her to walk into her front then I would stack the rear. The thing I did wrong with Ari, though, is that when things were going wrong in the ring at that point (leaning, fidgeting), I kept training to 'fix' it... it made her bored and me frustrated, until I introduced the clicker. Always training for the perfect stack meant I had to change it up often to keep her interested. My advice, if you are going to train it, do one or two, don't overdo it, and keep it fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) In fact, one of the best ways to shift the dog's centre of gravity forward is to pull it back by the tail then release it. I have not tried any of this training. I have not needed to teach a dog to stack. It just makes sense to me as a dog trainer. Make the show ring fun. Associate it with games. Do not associate it with a place where you get pushed and pulled around. Don't know about other breeds, but my dogs are rather sensitive about having their tail pulled back to invoke opposition reflex! Marking with a clicker when the dog walks its weight forward onto its front legs sounds like a good approach to me, too :) Edited January 25, 2012 by RubyStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canine fun sports Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Don't know about other breeds, but my dogs are rather sensitive about having their tail pulled back to invoke opposition reflex! When I was showing (oh so many years ago) I suspect the pups had their tails pulled (gently) so often to practice their stacking that they were totally desensitised to it. Back then (when no food or treats or toys were allowed in the ring, and positive reinforcement training had never been heard of in the Australian dog world) the pups and adults were not trained to stack, but rather, you timed the "tail pull" just before the judge looked at you and hopefully your dog was able to hold the stack for long enough. My dogs never enjoyed showing much. I wonder how much they would enjoy it with new training methods. But instead, I discovered agility . . . . Back to the original point of this post, if your dog does not like a tail tug, you can equally invoke the opposition reflex by pushing back against the forechest. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'd have him checked out by a chiro first - it could be a growth thing or a slight misalignment so he physically can not stand in the position you want him to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I might just clarify here that I personally use the term stubborn and oppositional in the same context. My bad. Apologies for confusion. And no, the tail thing doesn't always work, either does chiro. ;) I am involved wth teaching dogs to stack, on a regular basis. Just sharing a scenario that the OP may relate to. :rolleyes: Those of us who live with independently minded breeds might be prone to using terms like stubborn, it's not necessarily used as a negative. I'm stubborn, and oppositional, and I think it's great! If my dogs wanted to do all the things I want them to do, they wouldn't be sighthounds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 If my dogs wanted to do all the things I want them to do, they wouldn't be sighthounds... Amen to that, thinking outside the square is a given with a hound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I have had success stacking the dog, and click and treating when they move their body weight forward. It's fairly simple, and normally improvement is quite marked and immediate with a few repetitions. Sometimes it is difficult to see the weight shifts, and a mirror can help. For example, if you're standing in front of the dog, you can look to the side into a mirror to see the dog's weight shifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elise+Hudson Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Thanks for all the ideas and help guys! The opposing force doesn't seem to do much for him, but I have been tempting him forward and trying to catch him with the click before he physically walks forward. He seems to be a little different in the ring too, he sunk down a little in the hindquarters when I was moving his hind legs, but that was just the once, otherwise was much much better than at home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Just have to say... Cute pup! x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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