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Roguedog
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MG check out the link buddy1 posted (I am often there reading it as I find it fascinating). Chocs cannot "carry" black. I also still don't see how blacks come about, but it is true :) This is more than likely the combination that produced your boy's litter: http://www.blueknigh...color/cy-y.html

This explains it http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/color.html

We can also predict the result of the yellow x chocolate cross mentioned in the introduction. Let's arbitrarily assume the yellow does not carry chocolate and thus has the genotype BBee. Let's assume that the chocolate does carry onee allele and is capable of throwing yellow: bbEe. The Punnett Square is simplified by the fact that the dam can only supply one combination of alleles, Be, and the sire can contribute two, bE and be.

Half of the puppies are BbEe (black) and half are Bbee (yellow). With different assumptions about the "hidden" alleles, we might have found 25% black with yellow, chocolate, and light-eyed yellows present, or we might have obtained an all-black litter. In any case, some black puppies are expected, as mentioned in the introduction.

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MG check out the link buddy1 posted (I am often there reading it as I find it fascinating). Chocs cannot "carry" black. I also still don't see how blacks come about, but it is true :) This is more than likely the combination that produced your boy's litter: http://www.blueknigh...color/cy-y.html

This is doing my head in....where is the black coming from!!! lol

I think I'm going to stop here before my head explodes, I've got an anatomy exam to prepare for, and learning lab colour genetics won't help me pass lol

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MG check out the link buddy1 posted (I am often there reading it as I find it fascinating). Chocs cannot "carry" black. I also still don't see how blacks come about, but it is true :) This is more than likely the combination that produced your boy's litter: http://www.blueknigh...color/cy-y.html

This is doing my head in....where is the black coming from!!! lol

I think I'm going to stop here before my head explodes, I've got an anatomy exam to prepare for, and learning lab colour genetics won't help me pass lol

Check out the link I posted above, it explains it :)

Though the choc doesn't "carry" black, black is dominant and exists as long as the dog has black pigment. It's so hard to get ones head around it when the dog doesn't carry black but has to have black there to pass it on :laugh: That website will explain it better than I could (as I'm trying to get my head around it, too! laugh.gif)

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what do you man by black pigment? is that black skin and nose?

Yep, black nose, eye rims, lips.... not the skin, though!

Choc labs don't have black pigment, though. Their nose and eye rims and lips should be a liver colour. Blacks will have black pigment, and yellows should have black pigment (but can have that liver pigment which again is that undesirable trait mentioned when you mate certain types together).

Edited by RubyStar
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The thing is I think, is that black isn't carried by any of the colours. Black is dominant.

Your pup will carry choc, and his black littermates will be carrying choc and yellow. His littermates aren't carrying black.

Possible combinations:

EEBB =Basic Black (BB)

EEBb =Black that carries Choc. (Bc)

EeBB =Black that carries Yellow(By)

EeBb =Black that carries Yellow and chocolate (Byc)

eeBB =Yellow (Yy) [does not carry chocolate]

eeBb =Yellow that carries Chocolate (Yc)

eebb =chocolate pigmented yellow ~ No Black Pigment (NBP)

EEbb =Chocolate (CC) [does not carry yellow]

Eebb =Chocolate that carries yellow (Cy)

Edited by RubyStar
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The thing is I think, is that black isn't carried by any of the colours. Black is dominant.

Possible combinations:

EEBB =Basic Black (BB)

EEBb =Black that carries Choc. (Bc)

EeBB =Black that carries Yellow(By)

EeBb =Black that carries Yellow and chocolate (Byc)

eeBB =Yellow (Yy) [does not carry chocolate]

eeBb =Yellow that carries Chocolate (Yc)

eebb =chocolate pigmented yellow ~ No Black Pigment (NBP)

EEbb =Chocolate (CC) [does not carry yellow]

Eebb =Chocolate that carries yellow (Cy)

While i agree that that is what is on the website i think that it just cannot be right. If my mum is blonde but i have brown hair i still carry the gene for blonde and my kids could have it. Gibbs has to carry the yellow gene as he is yellow so is dad, he must carry choc too if mum was choc. His brothers are black so he has to have the black gene in him some where as his littermates are black but have the same genes? Am i wrong?

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While i agree that that is what is on the website i think that it just cannot be right. If my mum is blonde but i have brown hair i still carry the gene for blonde and my kids could have it. Gibbs has to carry the yellow gene as he is yellow so is dad, he must carry choc too if mum was choc. His brothers are black so he has to have the black gene in him some where as his littermates are black but have the same genes? Am i wrong?

I cannot say you are "wrong", I don't know enough myself. All I can say is black is not a gene that is CARRIED, sort of like it is there by default and the other genes play a matchmaking game of masking that gene, or not. That other site HERE explains how what each parent passes on can produce the black. If you ask me to put it in plain English, well, I can't laugh.gif

Edit to highlight a sentence I wrote, I think the lightbulb finally went off for myself as to how the blacks come about :rofl: of course I could be wrong, but it made sense in my head! :p

Edited by RubyStar
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Yeah I looove genetics :thumbsup: love even more Blueknight :thumbsup:

I mated my yellow who carrys chocolate to a dominant chocolate and produced black & chocolate pups.1 of the chocolate had a really pale coat but the others were quite liver.

Hark The Children :)

post-27124-0-79337000-1327297827_thumb.jpg

I deliberately kept a black girl now 16 months - based mainly on conformation - she carrys Yellow & Chocolate

If I put her to a yellow carrying chocolate I will get the dreaded yucky poo Dudley - so thats not happening

If I use a dominant chocolate I get 50/50 black & chocy but they will produces 25% Bc ~ 25% Cc ~ 25% Byc ~ 25% Cy - 1 chocy will be dominant and 1 will carry yellow. The blacks - 1 will carry chocolate and 1 will carry yellow & chocolate.

If I use a black carrying chocolate - most of the litter will be black - 1 chocy will carry yellow 1 will be dominant chocy - that is if I get 8 in the litter - they can all be black :)

If I use a black carrying yellow & chocolate I will get the dreaded Dudley

So my best option is a Black carrying chocolate or a dominant chocolate dog. Ugh the hunt is on for a studley for my princess Heeni te Anna who has great hips & elbows (1:3 0:0) EIC & PRA clear) - ho hum

And as for prices mmm $1300 limit - $1500 mains - regardless of colour. Regarding temperament - the poor chocolates are labeled nut jobs I believe because of poor temperament selection and poor puppy raising skills on the part of the breeder. I am a BIG BIG BIG believer in ENS & enriched environment and socialising pups young regardless of colour. The Americans suggest that about 30% of temperament is inherited the rest is how they are raised in that 0 - 16 week time span and IMO the temperament of the mother. Neurotic anxious mums produce neurotic anxious pups. Thats just my opinion and experience as a current breeder of Labs and once upon a time Kelpies & ACD's under a different prefix.

Edited by Tapua
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While i agree that that is what is on the website i think that it just cannot be right. If my mum is blonde but i have brown hair i still carry the gene for blonde and my kids could have it. Gibbs has to carry the yellow gene as he is yellow so is dad, he must carry choc too if mum was choc. His brothers are black so he has to have the black gene in him some where as his littermates are black but have the same genes? Am i wrong?

I cannot say you are "wrong", I don't know enough myself. All I can say is black is not a gene that is CARRIED, sort of like it is there by default and the other genes play a matchmaking game of masking that gene, or not. That other site HERE explains how what each parent passes on can produce the black. If you ask me to put it in plain English, well, I can't laugh.gif

Edit to highlight a sentence I wrote, I think the lightbulb finally went off for myself as to how the blacks come about :rofl: of course I could be wrong, but it made sense in my head! :p

Im just wondering if Gibbs could technically only carry choc and yellow , so therefore with what you are saying he wouldnt carry black at all but he could produce black coz they all carry black?? Very frikken confusing!!

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Im just wondering if Gibbs could technically only carry choc and yellow , so therefore with what you are saying he wouldnt carry black at all but he could produce black coz they all carry black?? Very frikken confusing!!

He could produce black puppies IF paired with the correct Mrs to do so :)

ie. if he's not paired with a yellow. He should have black babies if mated to a black or choc.

Edited by RubyStar
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While i agree that that is what is on the website i think that it just cannot be right. If my mum is blonde but i have brown hair i still carry the gene for blonde and my kids could have it. Gibbs has to carry the yellow gene as he is yellow so is dad, he must carry choc too if mum was choc. His brothers are black so he has to have the black gene in him some where as his littermates are black but have the same genes? Am i wrong?

I cannot say you are "wrong", I don't know enough myself. All I can say is black is not a gene that is CARRIED, sort of like it is there by default and the other genes play a matchmaking game of masking that gene, or not. That other site HERE explains how what each parent passes on can produce the black. If you ask me to put it in plain English, well, I can't laugh.gif

Edit to highlight a sentence I wrote, I think the lightbulb finally went off for myself as to how the blacks come about :rofl: of course I could be wrong, but it made sense in my head! :p

Im just wondering if Gibbs could technically only carry choc and yellow , so therefore with what you are saying he wouldnt carry black at all but he could produce black coz they all carry black?? Very frikken confusing!!

Just a question was Gibb's litter mates black & yellow? That would make Gibby a yellow carrying chocolate me thinks ?

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