LizT Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Can I just say that 30+ years ago I had a SWF entire bitch I had adopted. I purchased a SWF male puppy from a market. I now had two lovely little dog. I decided that if the market could sell these (quickly becoming popular) XYZ cross breeds for $XXX why couldn't I? I was about 19 years old and knew NOTHING (but didn't know enough to know that! ) Fortunately, the fates never allowed these two to breed. Sometimes, nature doesn't take it course. Today I am an ANKC Registered breeder, with a little more knowlege than the young girl back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 A recent litter of 9 large breed pups we got from the local pound (dumped at 4 weeks of age) - just feeding alone started with 1 20kg bag of kibble each week for 2 weeks - then I had to buy 2 20kg bags of kibble per week after that as the munchkins were eating 5kg of kibble per day! Luckily they did well on Bonnie Puppy - only $40 per bag... Then there were 3 lots of worming, chipping, vaccinating, and desexing - multiplied by 9... Oh - and changing and washing their bedding daily during particularly wet weather, so needing to use the dryer to get it all dry... I think we nearly broke even on costs over the 4-5 weeks we had them... selling them at $300 each. Now factor in bitch in whelp and needing to feed her properly to ensure healthy pups, possible complications requiring vet care (like a caesarian), making sure mum is fed well enough after the birth so she can in turn feed the pups - then factor in the bitch getting eclampsia or cracked nipples and having to hand rear most if not all of the litter, etc... License to print money, ain't it? NOT!!! T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVERI Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 she's starting to take the advice form a lady who i think is a Guinea Pig Breeder but has breed a few litters, or maybe im getting confused with two people giving her advice. She was given an approx to have vet checked, first vacc and micro chipped the woman got all in a twist saying how it was far to much, no vet would charge that blar blar blar..and is talking her in to asking $250ea, taking $100 dep before the pups see a vet and using that money to have there needles, vet check and micro chip done. But if she donen't sell all the pups before there due than whats she ganna do....o well sorry i can't afford to vacc, micro chip your pup cause i haven't sold the rest of the litter. and she's starting to take orders now cause she dosen't want to be suck with them any longer than 8 weeks. And im sure she's a nice natured dog but other than that she looks like a scrawny adolescent that hasn't had the chance to grown into her own body. poor this has massive milk bags hanging down like a cow. as for the welping box she's given her a blanket. is it the same to Vacc a small breed as it is to vacc a large breed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angeluca Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Personally, I'm bored with righteous indignation about BYB practices. This sort of thing has been going on since the concepts of 'purebred' and 'pedigree' took root. Fat chance of getting rid of it. And given the many abuses in show breeding, I think it may be good that a few people, at least, are breeding their 'nice' dogs. If there aren't a few people breeding non show conforming dogs, there's going to be nothing left to recover traits that may be lost through show breeders overemphasising a few phrases that happen to be in a breed standard that was written before much was understood about genetics. I never expected to see such a controversial statement on this board. However, you express my views perfectly. I too Found this statement delightful. No i don't agree, anyone should breed for a couple of bucks in the back yard without being able to pay for a vet but i don't think that is what this statement was about. For example i have heard so much about aggressive, socially ignorant goldies met one myself, this dog was a regular competitor and went to reg meets, but down right refused to be touched or approached by other dogs. this is not thier standard behavior but i was told it is not uncommon these days. Nor is white goldies (even with their imaginary yellow strand of fur) bring back temperament, original color diversity and whatever else is getting lost in the betterment of the breed. This is not a stab at breeders, just think some are getting carried away with other ideals of the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Personally, I'm bored with righteous indignation about BYB practices. This sort of thing has been going on since the concepts of 'purebred' and 'pedigree' took root. Fat chance of getting rid of it. And given the many abuses in show breeding, I think it may be good that a few people, at least, are breeding their 'nice' dogs. If there aren't a few people breeding non show conforming dogs, there's going to be nothing left to recover traits that may be lost through show breeders overemphasising a few phrases that happen to be in a breed standard that was written before much was understood about genetics. I never expected to see such a controversial statement on this board. However, you express my views perfectly. And mine. I think it's terrible that so many animals are put to sleep each year but the end justifies the means for me. Dogs will be in a very dire situation the day that we only have the registered breeders producing new dogs, in my mind that is not enough to sustain the species. Nobody here can deny that a lot of breeds are in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I hate doing my costing sheet for litters, it's scary to see how much money you actually pour into litters.....and that's if it's an easy whelp, fabulous motherly bitch too..add into it, ceaser, sick mum, pups, etc.. Profit and litter don't usually compute...if you break even, it's exciting lol! Yes but how often do true mongrels have trouble whelping? Unless your dog has extreme features which really can only be achieved by pure breeds they can usually mate, carry, deliver and raise perfectly fine on their own. A lot of breeds today can not reproduce without surgical intervention and I for one don't really think that's been an improvement for the dogs... The more "wolf-like" breeds have fewer issues, the more extreme you go the more issues you get eg pugs, bull dogs and dogs that are too small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Personally, I'm bored with righteous indignation about BYB practices. This sort of thing has been going on since the concepts of 'purebred' and 'pedigree' took root. Fat chance of getting rid of it. And given the many abuses in show breeding, I think it may be good that a few people, at least, are breeding their 'nice' dogs. If there aren't a few people breeding non show conforming dogs, there's going to be nothing left to recover traits that may be lost through show breeders overemphasising a few phrases that happen to be in a breed standard that was written before much was understood about genetics. I never expected to see such a controversial statement on this board. However, you express my views perfectly. And mine. I think it's terrible that so many animals are put to sleep each year but the end justifies the means for me. Dogs will be in a very dire situation the day that we only have the registered breeders producing new dogs, in my mind that is not enough to sustain the species. Nobody here can deny that a lot of breeds are in trouble. Unfortunately in a society where everything is recorded and catalogued it will do no good for a dog to be and look like a good specimen of any breed if he isn't able prove his pedigree. Several hundred years ago it would have been an entirely different matter. If it looked like a good "Collie" then it could be used in a breeding program. Today many "Home and Farm breed" dogs could have more than a dash of something else in them, therfore not the breed it appears or represents itself to be. The point is moot in 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Personally, I'm bored with righteous indignation about BYB practices. This sort of thing has been going on since the concepts of 'purebred' and 'pedigree' took root. Fat chance of getting rid of it. And given the many abuses in show breeding, I think it may be good that a few people, at least, are breeding their 'nice' dogs. If there aren't a few people breeding non show conforming dogs, there's going to be nothing left to recover traits that may be lost through show breeders overemphasising a few phrases that happen to be in a breed standard that was written before much was understood about genetics. I never expected to see such a controversial statement on this board. However, you express my views perfectly. And mine. I think it's terrible that so many animals are put to sleep each year but the end justifies the means for me. Dogs will be in a very dire situation the day that we only have the registered breeders producing new dogs, in my mind that is not enough to sustain the species. Nobody here can deny that a lot of breeds are in trouble. Unfortunately in a society where everything is recorded and catalogued it will do no good for a dog to be and look like a good specimen of any breed if he isn't able prove his pedigree. Several hundred years ago it would have been an entirely different matter. If it looked like a good "Collie" then it could be used in a breeding program. Today many "Home and Farm breed" dogs could have more than a dash of something else in them, therfore not the breed it appears or represents itself to be. The point is moot in 2012. I guess thats what they did do a few hundread yrs ago and today it is called byb. It would be very interesting to discover if dogs lived longer back then compared to today. There are probably no records kept tho Not sure if it is this thread or not but i read a post yesterday that said dispite the health tests carried out dogs seem to be dying younger? It would be interesting to know how much is due to all the crap they put in dog food ect these days. But i think there will always be byb and there will always be farm dogs bred to work, so i dont think there will ever be a time when we only have pedigree dogs and nothing else :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smisch Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Personally, I'm bored with righteous indignation about BYB practices. This sort of thing has been going on since the concepts of 'purebred' and 'pedigree' took root. Fat chance of getting rid of it. And given the many abuses in show breeding, I think it may be good that a few people, at least, are breeding their 'nice' dogs. If there aren't a few people breeding non show conforming dogs, there's going to be nothing left to recover traits that may be lost through show breeders overemphasising a few phrases that happen to be in a breed standard that was written before much was understood about genetics. I never expected to see such a controversial statement on this board. However, you express my views perfectly. Yes +1! You have my breed down pat as far as i am concerned :laugh: Apart from a few select breeders who dare to stay true to the standard the only place you find a decent dog these days is "byb". Its funny the range of practices here that are considered byb. So you can health test, be registered with ANKC but if the litter aint reg you are still a byb? :laugh: I would take that any day over all these puppy farms that are being discovered First "byb good for nothing mongrel" shepherd died of old age at 15. Damn her non registered breeders for selling us a healthy and long lived family member :rolleyes: I really don't understand this point of view. The problem is that there are not just "a few" people doing this. It is rife. The fact is BYB will never stop. I don't think anyone disputes that but make it more socially unacceptable and minimise it as much as possible. I only have mutts, probably always will but I sure as hell would not be lining the pockets of a BYB or puppy farm for them and I certainly don't think anyone should be worried about a shortage of BYB mutts anytime soon. I agree, there are alot of byb, i only know a handful of doggy friends who have actually bought from registered breeders. The rest have been purchased from the pound or unregisetered, hence byb dogs. I guess for me personally, it is more the fact that i have had bad experiences with club with my breed and don't agree with what most reg breeders in my breed are doing. hence i find a breeder who still does health tests ect but does not show hence they are unregisted. This is how i find a dog that i believe is true to my breed. You see the thing is, i think public perception must change for byb to be seen by many as socially unacceptable. The attitude of most ppl i know is that pedigree dogs are overpriced and when you only want the dog as a family pet and not showing/breeding then the papers are not worth much to these ppl. I think it is also still a common point of view(dispite the good efforts of breeders) that the more pedigreed a dog is the more health problems they may have. So when they can pay in some cases $1000 dollars less they will, as many simply cannot afford 1500+ for the breed they want. I am not saying this is personally what i think, it is the thinking tho of my little group at our daily hangout :laugh: Just curious, if you have mutts where did they come from? The pound? Where did they come from before that? Most reg breeders will not breed mutts. Edit: To say, very sorry, thought you were replying to me. So sorry if you were not as you got my opinion instead :laugh: I agree to this.. I had a friend posting on facebook about looking for breeders of particular breeds.. she then said later on in comments oh I cant afford $1500+ theres a "breeder" at ----- who sells them for $550.. Breeder my ass, I linked her to here explaining the difference between her "breeder" and a real breeder, she found one she likes but I have a feeling she will go back to the cheap one simply because its cheap... Lets face it there really is NO money in breeding dogs at all and yet breeders seem to charge a phenominmal amount for a dog.. mostly to me it comes across as making a profit but correct me if Im wrong.. but what are we looking at cost wise if your bitch has a healthy pregnancy - food, worming, vaccine, microchip if you add that all up and divde by the number of pups surely even if you say added $100 each for your time if doesnt work out at $1200 a pup .. Just my thoughts but as I said correct me if Im wrong, I havent bred a litter before and Im only new to the show world so Im learning alot as I go Im all for purebreds and showline and everything.. Im looking into finally getting my own show puppy but I would say thats the thing that bogs me down the most is the cost of the dog.. You get what you pay for and thats fine... but the average family mum,dad and a few kids I dont think can understand why they pay that money when as pointed out they can go to a petshop or local newspaper or whatever and pay next to nix for a pup of quiet possibly the same kinda quality as a pedigreed purebred... I dunno just my thoughts here.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Personally, I'm bored with righteous indignation about BYB practices. This sort of thing has been going on since the concepts of 'purebred' and 'pedigree' took root. Fat chance of getting rid of it. And given the many abuses in show breeding, I think it may be good that a few people, at least, are breeding their 'nice' dogs. If there aren't a few people breeding non show conforming dogs, there's going to be nothing left to recover traits that may be lost through show breeders overemphasising a few phrases that happen to be in a breed standard that was written before much was understood about genetics. I never expected to see such a controversial statement on this board. However, you express my views perfectly. And mine. I think it's terrible that so many animals are put to sleep each year but the end justifies the means for me. Dogs will be in a very dire situation the day that we only have the registered breeders producing new dogs, in my mind that is not enough to sustain the species. Nobody here can deny that a lot of breeds are in trouble. You've obviously never worked in a pound/shelter. The end certainly DOES NOT justify the means. Whether registered breeders can sustain a species means nil to the poor dogs that are killed every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paganman Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 they can go to a petshop or local newspaper or whatever and pay next to nix for a pup of quiet possibly the same kinda quality as a pedigreed purebred... I dunno just my thoughts here.. You been to any petshops lately or looked at the ads in newspapers?????Theres crossbreed pups in petshops selling for more than purebreeds over $1000 for a lot of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smisch Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 they can go to a petshop or local newspaper or whatever and pay next to nix for a pup of quiet possibly the same kinda quality as a pedigreed purebred... I dunno just my thoughts here.. You been to any petshops lately or looked at the ads in newspapers?????Theres crossbreed pups in petshops selling for more than purebreeds over $1000 for a lot of them to be honest the PS I walk past dont have prices up.. and the newspaper whenever I read it there are alot of working mixes in there for like $400 or so.. but I dont pay too much attention to them these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetshroom Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 My attitude to byb is mixed. I see no problem with farmers who have a few good working dogs breeding a litter every 5-7 years to maintain their line of good working dogs. Usually they've got a network of other farmers who are about ready to start training up their next working dog anyway though so it's not done for profit. Then there's the other side of the coin which is my brother in law. Decided because he loves his bitch, (A kelpie x x x) and he and his mates think staffies are manly, that he should breed her with a staffy x and have kelpie x staffies and sell them for profit. Bitch almost died and the litter did. The second I heard he was going to try breeding her I said WTF. Terrible idea. But that family is just one of those groups of people. You just can't talk them out of stupid ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lavendergirl Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 they can go to a petshop or local newspaper or whatever and pay next to nix for a pup of quiet possibly the same kinda quality as a pedigreed purebred... I dunno just my thoughts here.. You been to any petshops lately or looked at the ads in newspapers?????Theres crossbreed pups in petshops selling for more than purebreeds over $1000 for a lot of them Most pet shop puppies I have seen are around $700 - some of the "less appealing"mixes are around $400. I think it is also worth mentioning that a large number of pups for sale in pet shops are actually purebred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 they can go to a petshop or local newspaper or whatever and pay next to nix for a pup of quiet possibly the same kinda quality as a pedigreed purebred... I dunno just my thoughts here.. You been to any petshops lately or looked at the ads in newspapers?????Theres crossbreed pups in petshops selling for more than purebreeds over $1000 for a lot of them Most pet shop puppies I have seen are around $700 - some of the "less appealing"mixes are around $400. I think it is also worth mentioning that a large number of pups for sale in pet shops are actually purebred. The petshop i was in on the wkend have cavs for $1200. they had a pic of the mother sitting with the pups above the price on the pen. No clue where they came from or if they have papers ect. I didnt want to ask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-sass Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 How does filling out a form and paying a fee to become a registered breeder make a claim to breed knowledge and ethics when there is no criteria to become registered, anyone can become a registered breeder can't they? No, you need to have dogs on the main register first, responsible breeders don't put their whole litter on the mains, only dogs that are suited to show, and that will be going to a show home, any dogs going to a pet home should be sold on the limit register, which means even if you join ANKC etc, that dog still can't be bred, or if you do, the pups can't be registered What I mean is other than having a dog on mains (plenty of breeders do sell on mains) you could become a registered breeder without having a clue about breeding or breed knowledge, bloodlines etc much the same as a BYB? I don't support or agree with BYB's, but a registration doesn't really mean the breeder has met a higher competence level than a BYB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lavendergirl Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 they can go to a petshop or local newspaper or whatever and pay next to nix for a pup of quiet possibly the same kinda quality as a pedigreed purebred... I dunno just my thoughts here.. You been to any petshops lately or looked at the ads in newspapers?????Theres crossbreed pups in petshops selling for more than purebreeds over $1000 for a lot of them Most pet shop puppies I have seen are around $700 - some of the "less appealing"mixes are around $400. I think it is also worth mentioning that a large number of pups for sale in pet shops are actually purebred. The petshop i was in on the wkend have cavs for $1200. they had a pic of the mother sitting with the pups above the price on the pen. No clue where they came from or if they have papers ect. I didnt want to ask Oh yes - those beautifully "staged" photos of Mum and pups. Especially the ones in flower pots etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 they can go to a petshop or local newspaper or whatever and pay next to nix for a pup of quiet possibly the same kinda quality as a pedigreed purebred... I dunno just my thoughts here.. You been to any petshops lately or looked at the ads in newspapers?????Theres crossbreed pups in petshops selling for more than purebreeds over $1000 for a lot of them Most pet shop puppies I have seen are around $700 - some of the "less appealing"mixes are around $400. I think it is also worth mentioning that a large number of pups for sale in pet shops are actually purebred. The petshop i was in on the wkend have cavs for $1200. they had a pic of the mother sitting with the pups above the price on the pen. No clue where they came from or if they have papers ect. I didnt want to ask Oh yes - those beautifully "staged" photos of Mum and pups. Especially the ones in flower pots etc nope they didnt even have a nice background with flowers ect. looked maybe like a whelping box with a blanket in it idk It was quite close up so you couldnt see anything else. I only had a really quick look, just felt sorry for poor mummy cav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 In most instance a unregistered breeder wont do any kind of health testing, unless you think a 6 week vet check, worming and vaccination is a health test (don't laught,some do). Most health testing required the registration details and microchip numbers of both the sire and the dam. And no, the pet shop dogs will not be papered as Pet Shops are not permitted to sell Papered dogs. $1200 for Cavaliers, that's more than most registered breeders will charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lavendergirl Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 In most instance a unregistered breeder wont do any kind of health testing, unless you think a 6 week vet check, worming and vaccination is a health test (don't laught,some do). Most health testing required the registration details and microchip numbers of both the sire and the dam. And no, the pet shop dogs will not be papered as Pet Shops are not permitted to sell Papered dogs. $1200 for Cavaliers, that's more than most registered breeders will charge. Not papered no, but purebred. Most people don't differentiate between purebred and pedigreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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