Crisovar Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Personally, I'm bored with righteous indignation about BYB practices. This sort of thing has been going on since the concepts of 'purebred' and 'pedigree' took root. Fat chance of getting rid of it. And given the many abuses in show breeding, I think it may be good that a few people, at least, are breeding their 'nice' dogs. If there aren't a few people breeding non show conforming dogs, there's going to be nothing left to recover traits that may be lost through show breeders overemphasising a few phrases that happen to be in a breed standard that was written before much was understood about genetics. I never expected to see such a controversial statement on this board. However, you express my views perfectly. Yes +1! You have my breed down pat as far as i am concerned :laugh: Apart from a few select breeders who dare to stay true to the standard the only place you find a decent dog these days is "byb". Its funny the range of practices here that are considered byb. So you can health test, be registered with ANKC but if the litter aint reg you are still a byb? :laugh: I would take that any day over all these puppy farms that are being discovered First "byb good for nothing mongrel" shepherd died of old age at 15. Damn her non registered breeders for selling us a healthy and long lived family member :rolleyes: However, in saying all that, i think saying i won't help as they are a byb is the wrong attitude. Education is the key and i hope there is someone she knows who can inform her of the costs and the hard work both her and the bitch will have to go through, as well as the potential to lose the litter as well as the bitch if things go wrong. A risk all breeders take. Hopefully if she sees things in perspective she might think twice in the future. Though it is likely she will not. Really!! You have been to every GSD breeder in Australia and evaluated their dogs? Get over yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Personally, I'm bored with righteous indignation about BYB practices. This sort of thing has been going on since the concepts of 'purebred' and 'pedigree' took root. Fat chance of getting rid of it. And given the many abuses in show breeding, I think it may be good that a few people, at least, are breeding their 'nice' dogs. If there aren't a few people breeding non show conforming dogs, there's going to be nothing left to recover traits that may be lost through show breeders overemphasising a few phrases that happen to be in a breed standard that was written before much was understood about genetics. I never expected to see such a controversial statement on this board. However, you express my views perfectly. Yes +1! You have my breed down pat as far as i am concerned :laugh: Apart from a few select breeders who dare to stay true to the standard the only place you find a decent dog these days is "byb". Its funny the range of practices here that are considered byb. So you can health test, be registered with ANKC but if the litter aint reg you are still a byb? :laugh: I would take that any day over all these puppy farms that are being discovered First "byb good for nothing mongrel" shepherd died of old age at 15. Damn her non registered breeders for selling us a healthy and long lived family member :rolleyes: However, in saying all that, i think saying i won't help as they are a byb is the wrong attitude. Education is the key and i hope there is someone she knows who can inform her of the costs and the hard work both her and the bitch will have to go through, as well as the potential to lose the litter as well as the bitch if things go wrong. A risk all breeders take. Hopefully if she sees things in perspective she might think twice in the future. Though it is likely she will not. Really!! You have been to every GSD breeder in Australia and evaluated their dogs? Get over yourself. If you read what i said, there are a few good ones still out there. You have your opinion on what is a good dog and i have mine, end of story, i am not going to have an online debate over a topic that has been done to death, its off the topic for this thread anyway, i was simply stating why i agreed with Sandgrubber.Thanks for your advice btw, i will surely take note ;) Edited January 22, 2012 by german_shep_fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVERI Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 we will never stop BYB but thats not my biggest issue here. This girl has said she has no money for a vet! people have given her some pointers but she seems to come up with a reason why she can't do something cause she either don't want to or hasn't go the money. someone sugested taking her temp. she can't cause she don't want to use the thermomiter 'she has and hasn't got money to buy one. the dog is a ridgeback cross she's still growing. I honestly don't think she's taking on much of what ppl are saying. if she hasn't go the money to buy a cheap thermomter than how this pups ganna get fed or mum for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 german_shep_fan, I'm a little confused by your posts. Why would you choose a BYB GSD over a registered working line Shepherd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-sass Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 How does filling out a form and paying a fee to become a registered breeder make a claim to breed knowledge and ethics when there is no criteria to become registered, anyone can become a registered breeder can't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 How does filling out a form and paying a fee to become a registered breeder make a claim to breed knowledge and ethics when there is no criteria to become registered, anyone can become a registered breeder can't they? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 german_shep_fan, I'm a little confused by your posts. Why would you choose a BYB GSD over a registered working line Shepherd? I will PM you, off topic in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I think the issues is more the total lack of planning and preparation before someone who supposedly loves their dog, lets it have puppies. They seem to have no idea of potential whelping problems which put their pet in danger and Im sure some think the puppies will be fed by the mother for 8 weeks and therefore cost them nothing. I'll bet the majority put no research into making sure the puppies are going to be healthy and well socialised either. I too think breeding of the family dog will never go away, due to both greed, naivety or ignorance but in most cases the puppies seem to find homes. It's often once they're older they find their way to pounds, probably through lack of training and socialisation than anything wrong with the dog itself. Some people make out back yard bred dogs are going to keel over with every problem under the sun but I don't think that's always the case. I'm sure there's plenty who live their lives as well loved pets although I'm sure a percentage end up with health/genetic problems like purebred dogs do. Everyone wants to complain the general public are ignorant but how do you begin to train a population in dog awareness? Some good points in this post. Public education is definitely needed because there are still people that do believe the bitch just feeds the puppies and they pocket the profit. It is sheer ignorance not that they are awful people or they don't care about their dogs. I will never forget the family that came into the pet warehouse I used to work in many years ago. They wanted to know what to feed their 2 year old unregistered GSD because she was suddenly losing weight. It turned out she had a litter of 10, 2 week old puppies and they were only feeding the bitch her usual one can of food a day. Then they asked when they could touch the puppies. The litter was is a box in the garage with no bedding and they hadn't been near them since they were born. This family had 4 small kids and had never wormed the dog. The dad told me his mate had an unregistered male GSD so they thought they would breed them together to make a quid. After an hour they left with several hundred dollars worth of food, wormers, bedding, supplements and the dad wondering how he was even going to break even, let alone make a profit and what they were going to do if they couldn't sell the puppies. This was at a time when unregistered GSDs where about the most common "pure bred" available and were dying in pounds like SBTs are now. They simply had no idea they needed to feed the bitch more, that they needed to feed the puppies, about worming or vaccinations, etc. At least they listened, took on the advice and bought enough supplies to take care of the bitch and puppies. We sold them budget stuff, not premium but it still added up for a litter that size and a bitch that was already drastically underweight. As for BYB puppies seeming to get homes, that is only true for the small ones. There is a huge demand for small crossbred puppies but not the bigger ones. When I worked for a major shelter we put down an average of one whole surrendered litter a week of med/large crossbred puppies. The owners couldn't find homes for them and neither could we. Some of these people had spent a fortune raising them only to find they couldn't even give them away. Most were Cattle Dog cross, GSD cross, SBT cross or BT cross at the time with a few Pit bull cross types just starting to come in when I left. We also got pet shop puppies that they couldn't sell that were past the cute stage. People would adopt larger adult dogs but no one much wanted the larger breed puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVERI Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Can someone please give me an approx $ that i can go back to her and tell her to expect to pay raising these pups from birth to an age they can be homed. someones told her its about $45 for vacc and $25 for micro chipping. but no ones said anything about feeding, worming, flea control etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) How does filling out a form and paying a fee to become a registered breeder make a claim to breed knowledge and ethics when there is no criteria to become registered, anyone can become a registered breeder can't they? No, you need to have dogs on the main register first, responsible breeders don't put their whole litter on the mains, only dogs that are suited to show, and that will be going to a show home, any dogs going to a pet home should be sold on the limit register, which means even if you join ANKC etc, that dog still can't be bred, or if you do, the pups can't be registered Edited January 22, 2012 by GoldenGirl85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay57 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Not all BYB as they are called are unethical, I live on a farm and have owned horses and dogs all my life,In the past I have bred my dogs 2 times, both are registered but with different associations, but are the same breed, both have there paperwork,I know where every one of her pups are, I have the pup back if the owners are going on holidays, One I have had back 3 times for a holiday , I screen puppy buyers very carefully , my pups have all been raised inside, are well socialised, vet checked, immunised and microchipped before leaving at 8 weeks old, I have been to many breeders properties, a lot are filthy, the dogs are penned all the time with no social skills whatever , flea infested , I have also been to a lot of good ones, what I think I am trying to say is there is good and bad in every thing, and every body has a right to be judged accordingly, yes I think the girl is in the wrong or she simply doesnt know any better,, but she needs help, the deed is allready done,I am now a registered breeder and own 3 ANKC dogs, will I do any thing different now that I am a registered breeder, no, my dogs are still part of my family, are very much loved, I research my lines and know what direction I want to go in, as well as having a mentor in the breed I have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab_Rat Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Can someone please give me an approx $ that i can go back to her and tell her to expect to pay raising these pups from birth to an age they can be homed. someones told her its about $45 for vacc and $25 for micro chipping. but no ones said anything about feeding, worming, flea control etc. Cant give you any idea of $$$$ sorry Daveri, but given the bitch is a young Ridgy X, can you PLEASE mention to her the pups NEED to be checked for a thing called DERMOID SINUS.......When I read YOUNG, RR being in pup I just about had kittens myself!!!! One year old is far too young for such a dog to be having pups - they are really just pups themselves.....Ive never bred, and wont be in the foreseeable future, but am quite close to our RR breeder and have a fair idea of what goes into a litter - scares the crap outa me!!! I hope this girl has her pups without any dramas, and the girl in question learns and gets her girl spayed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVERI Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 can we please not make this about her not being registered but having no idea whats going on and no money and planning more! i'd love to be able to say something to her that will give her something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Can someone please give me an approx $ that i can go back to her and tell her to expect to pay raising these pups from birth to an age they can be homed. someones told her its about $45 for vacc and $25 for micro chipping. but no ones said anything about feeding, worming, flea control etc. This might help you: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/203044-cost-of-breeding/page__hl__cost probably a little late for this one: http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Can someone please give me an approx $ that i can go back to her and tell her to expect to pay raising these pups from birth to an age they can be homed. someones told her its about $45 for vacc and $25 for micro chipping. but no ones said anything about feeding, worming, flea control etc. I would guess the cost of raising the puppies to be about $400 each for a large breed if she uses budget food. Calculated that from the fact a litter of 6 BCs cost about $500 each to raise on premium food, including the proportion of the stud fee in that amount. That includes extra food and supplements for the mum, vet visit after whelping, worming, puppy food, vaccinations and microchipping. A larger litter of bigger puppies will eat a lot more but she won't have a stud fee and can cut corners with cheaper food. Then she needs to figure in the cost of a whelping box/clamshell, bedding, any extra vet costs if things go wrong and a possible caesar at around $1000. Oh and advertising. That can ad a lot to the costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I rememebr my friend saying she worked out what it would cost just for deworming/vaccinating an average sized pup to 8 weeks and it was I think $150. That is of course not including food, microchipping or extra for the bitch. And also not including care or vaccination/dewormers after 8 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Dancinbcs it hadn't really clicked in my mind that pet shops dump their unsold puppies at shelters/pounds, though I honk have had heard it. That is absolutely disgusting, on the shop's part and especially the people that breed the pups they sell. What terrible life for a puppy - be born, go live in a glass box for weeks when you should still be with your mum, then get dumped at a shelter where you are unlikely to find a home either and be put down Daveri, sorry I don't know much about breeding, I feel your frustration tho. She could have 10 pups in the litter! $400 each means she's gonna need to come up with $4000 before she gets the money from selling them! I just don't get how she's planning to do this ?!? Hopefully after one litter she will at least realise it was a stupid idea and not do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 can we please not make this about her not being registered but having no idea whats going on and no money and planning more! i'd love to be able to say something to her that will give her something to think about. Tell her there is a very real risk that the bitch could die as well as the litter. She obv has no experience at all and even seasoned pro's sometimes have their hearts broken when a bitch or the litter don't make it. That is assuming she actually loves this dog and doesn't just see it as a money making breeding machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) I hate doing my costing sheet for litters, it's scary to see how much money you actually pour into litters.....and that's if it's an easy whelp, fabulous motherly bitch too..add into it, ceaser, sick mum, pups, etc.. Profit and litter don't usually compute...if you break even, it's exciting lol! Edited January 22, 2012 by Missymoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I hate doing my costing sheet for litters, it's scary to see how much money you actually pour into litters.....and that's if it's an easy whelp, fabulous motherly bitch too..add into it, ceaser, sick mum, pups, etc.. Profit and litter don't usually compute...if you break even, it's exciting lol! Yep, breeding is a bit like taking $3000 - $5000 to the casino and hoping you don't come out behind except with breeding you are never going to stike the jackpot money wise. If things go well you can end up with a few thousand for 8 weeks solid work. If things goes wrong you can end up losing the lot. I have seen many people spend every cent they had to raise a byb litter and then had to surrender them to be put down because they ran out of money and couldn't find buyers. The saddest cases were when the bitch was a stray rescued in whelp and the carers were not aware they could be desexed in whelp, so went ahead and raised a litter. The most amazing case I know of was a registered breeder about 20 years ago with new, rare, very large breed. Most of the imported show dogs in this breed were from the US rather than the country of origin. This breeder already had 4 Rotties, had bought a nice bitch of the rare breed and planned a litter to a sire from the country of origin. At the time average pure bred puppy prices were about $400-$500 and this rare breed were selling for $2000. The breeder ended up selling his car to pay the stud fee and feed the ensuing litter of 10 on the best of everything, confident he would get $18000 back in puppy sales and could buy a new car. The problem was no one with show lines wanted them and the public had never heard of them so there was no demand for puppies. Last time I saw him the puppies were 8 months old and he still had 6 left at home and he was broke. He had only sold 3 and managed to give one away. Feeding 6 growing puppies and 5 adults had taken everthing he had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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