Vaccine Reaction In A Pup. Help Please.

[Alyosha]

You also need to report the reaction to the APVMA here: http://www.apvma.gov.au/use_safely/adverse/veterinary.php

Everythings Shiny your clinic should do this as well, there could be an issue with this vaccine or a batch.

My vet has notified Virbac, and they said apparently that his reaction is more than likely an individual response and they do not feel that there is reason to recall the batch.

So do I still need to report as above? Thank you :)

Yep. You certainly should.. It's a really simple form for you or your vet to complete. I can undertand Virbac saying it is likely just an individual reaction, but only if individual reactions are recorded will anyone know if there is a bigger problem developing.

[Jumabaar]

Thank you becks :)

So if I titer in the next few weeks, does that mean I need to repeat it in a years times?

I'm so confused

I personally wouldn't titre test for a few years- but it will depend what you do with your dog. Obedience clubs will probably want more regular titres for example.

[Red Fox]

I paid over $260 for titers, no other choice here unfortunately, our vet sends the bloods to Gribbles.

C3 at 7 weeks (breeders vet - no reaction that I am aware of), C5 at 12 & 16 weeks (reaction to both), C3 at 17 months (no reaction), titer test 18 months later. The results came back with insufficient immunity for parvo.

Erny:

Although I'm pleased that one year on, my boy's titre showed positive for sufficient antibodies proving sero-conversion, from what I have read and understand, if it showed nothing, that does not mean that sero-conversion has not taken place. It is possible that sero-conversion had taken place but that the antibody "make-up" had receded to "cell memory" - not floating around the body so to speak, but the body ready and able to rev them up and get them out there should exposure to the disease/s occur.

This is the confusing part. How do you decide when or whether to re-vaccinate the dog if the titer results come back insufficient 12 months or 3 years down the track?

[bianca.a]

You also need to report the reaction to the APVMA here: http://www.apvma.gov.au/use_safely/adverse/veterinary.php

Everythings Shiny your clinic should do this as well, there could be an issue with this vaccine or a batch.

My vet has notified Virbac, and they said apparently that his reaction is more than likely an individual response and they do not feel that there is reason to recall the batch.

So do I still need to report as above? Thank you :)

Yep. You certainly should.. It's a really simple form for you or your vet to complete. I can undertand Virbac saying it is likely just an individual reaction, but only if individual reactions are recorded will anyone know if there is a bigger problem developing.

Ok I will complete the online form then, thank you :)

[bianca.a]

Thank you becks :)

So if I titer in the next few weeks, does that mean I need to repeat it in a years times?

I'm so confused

I personally wouldn't titre test for a few years- but it will depend what you do with your dog. Obedience clubs will probably want more regular titres for example.

That's what I am confused about. For example if I titre in a few weeks time, and it shows low levels....then what do I do? I wouldn't want to risk re-vaccinating him especially so soon.

I know the agility club I was attending with my girl, agreed to accept titres after I asked. It is a big club and they had never come across it before!

Thank you for your input, I do appreciate all the help from everyone :)

[bianca.a]

I paid over $260 for titers, no other choice here unfortunately, our vet sends the bloods to Gribbles.

C3 at 7 weeks (breeders vet - no reaction that I am aware of), C5 at 12 & 16 weeks (reaction to both), C3 at 17 months (no reaction), titer test 18 months later. The results came back with insufficient immunity for parvo.

Erny:

Although I'm pleased that one year on, my boy's titre showed positive for sufficient antibodies proving sero-conversion, from what I have read and understand, if it showed nothing, that does not mean that sero-conversion has not taken place. It is possible that sero-conversion had taken place but that the antibody "make-up" had receded to "cell memory" - not floating around the body so to speak, but the body ready and able to rev them up and get them out there should exposure to the disease/s occur.

This is the confusing part. How do you decide when or whether to re-vaccinate the dog if the titer results come back insufficient 12 months or 3 years down the track?

Thank you, is Gribbles the place in Scotland/UK? I'm sure that's where at least one part of it is tested.

Your question is also what I'm confused about

[bianca.a]

I've been hunting around and found this:

This is what Dr. Ronald Schultz had to say in his 2007 presentation to the AKC Canine Health Foundation entitled,What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines and Vaccination Programs: http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What%20Everyone%20Needs%20to%20Know%20About%20Canine%20Vaccines.htm

"My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performed two or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. I have used this vaccination program with modifications (CAV-2 replaced CAV-1 vaccines in 1970's and CPV-2 vaccines were first used in 1980) since 1974! I have never had one of our dogs develop CDV,CAV-1 or CPV-2 even though they have had exposure to many dogs, wildlife and to virulent CPV-2 virus. You may say that I have been lucky, but it is not luck that protects my dogs, it is immunologic memory.

The vaccines in the quote above are CDV (distemper), CPV-2 (parvovirus), CPI (canine parainfluenza), and CAV-2 (hepatitis), and Dr. Ronald Schultz is the Chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine. His challenge and serological studies on canine vaccines form a large part of the scientific data base upon which the 2003 and 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are based, as well as the 2007 World Small Animal Veterinary Association's Vaccine Guidelines.

[Red Fox]

Thank you, is Gribbles the place in Scotland/UK? I'm sure that's where at least one part of it is tested.

Gribbles pathology: http://www.gribblesvets.com/info/general/Home/get/0/0/

From my (limited) understanding if the bloods go directly to Vetpath in WA (rather than through Gribbles) the cost is much lower. However the vet must have an account with Vetpath to do so.

I believe that the Hepatitis test needs to be sent o/s regardless. Either UK or Jean Dodds in USA.

[german_shep_fan]

He really does need a repeat to be protected for the canine cough component but that should be enough for the C3. Another option is to try a different brand of vaccine.

there is no need to do kennel cough unless you are going to be boarding the dog.

There were two dogs in my pups puppy class that came down with it. The days of it just existing in the kennels unfortunately are long gone. There was an outbreak in my suburb a few mnths back. I got my girl done for it at 16wks along with her 4mth vaccs, i do the KC vacc for my older boy every yr too as they go to obedience club and park alot. You just never know if other ppl vacc their dogs or not.

Bianca i hope little Cooper is all good now and is stacking on those kgs :)

[Erny]

Sometimes I almost wish I stayed in the past where with my previous dogs I just accepted the conventional way of thinking re food and vaccines etc! It seemed so much less confusing then!

Lol .... and sometimes I wish I stayed in the past where with our previous dogs the conventional way of thinking was raw food and no vaccine boosters. Gotta tell you - when there was NO choice regards commercial dog foods because it just wasn't available to us, feeding was simple. For that matter, visits to the Vets were rare for anything other than accidental injuries.

[Erny]

Erny:

Although I'm pleased that one year on, my boy's titre showed positive for sufficient antibodies proving sero-conversion, from what I have read and understand, if it showed nothing, that does not mean that sero-conversion has not taken place. It is possible that sero-conversion had taken place but that the antibody "make-up" had receded to "cell memory" - not floating around the body so to speak, but the body ready and able to rev them up and get them out there should exposure to the disease/s occur.

This is the confusing part. How do you decide when or whether to re-vaccinate the dog if the titer results come back insufficient 12 months or 3 years down the track?

Your question is also what I'm confused about

This is why it is best if the Titre is done at about 2 weeks after vaccination. Because during that time, bloods would still show the antibodies created in response to the vaccine introduced disease/s. This means sero-conversion has occurred - the body has developed a recognition of the diseases. If no anti-bodies were present at that time, I'd be concerned sero-conversion had not occurred (ie the body did not respond to the vaccine and that my dog's body was not as properly prepared to send anti-bodies to the rescue should contact with the disease/s occur).

If you Titre test beyond two weeks, perhaps the test will show negative, but that is not proof that sero-conversion has not taken place. It's always pleasing when the titre shows anti-bodies, but that doesn't necessarily mean the anti-bodies are present just because of the vaccine - it might be that the dog has been exposed to the diseases, so the anti-bodies have revved into action as a means to fighting off the diseases before they take hold.

I trust what I have read (Dr Jean Dodds articles are very helpful, along with posts by forum members Staranais and Rappie [Vets], amongst others) and been advised and that if my dog was exposed to any of the said diseases, antibodies to the diseases would be readily re-created and released into the blood stream to attack the diseases.

I think that if I lived in an area where the diseases were rampant, perhaps I might re-vaccinate if the titre showed no antibodies (which would indicate my dog had not been exposed to the diseases in more recent times and consequently exist in cell-memory, not immediately in the blood stream) but that's something I would and will decide when and if the time comes (which I hope it doesn't).

But when and if I need to make that decision, I will also take into account the current health status of my dog and determine the greater risk chance : (a) that my dog's system will suffer as a result of the vaccine chemicals being introduced to his body or (b) that my dog will pick up one of the 3 core diseases. I am not as concerned about canine cough - not to suggest the condition should be disregarded if it is contracted.

I'm not a Vet but this is how I understand it.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Erny

[Jumabaar]

Thank you, is Gribbles the place in Scotland/UK? I'm sure that's where at least one part of it is tested.

Gribbles pathology: http://www.gribblesvets.com/info/general/Home/get/0/0/

From my (limited) understanding if the bloods go directly to Vetpath in WA (rather than through Gribbles) the cost is much lower. However the vet must have an account with Vetpath to do so.

I believe that the Hepatitis test needs to be sent o/s regardless. Either UK or Jean Dodds in USA.

I didn't get the Hep done I think. The vet said if one was positive (can't remember which) that it meant that Hep would be positive. She is in contact with Jean Dodds all the time so I am happy to go with what she says.

Just out of interest you could ring Barbra (my vet)- I think she still does phone consults through her practice http://www.naturalvet.com.au/ if you do get a low titre.... She is very up to date with all the latest research and will actively go and ferret the information out if you need her too. Expensive but if your thinking of revaccinating it may be less expensive to have a chat to her first....

Edited January 23, 2012 by Jumabaar

[kiwikitten]

Look up "homeopathic veterinarians" - most of these will do titres. There are two in Victoria - one in Thornbury (Margaret O'Riordan)who charges $115 and one in Geelong (Paws to Heal) who charges $80.

Animal Options in QLD do it for $69.

These do not include the hepatitis testing, as titre results for parvo are deemed indicative of immunity for hep as well. Low distemper titre results are usually ignored, as there is not enough exposure to the disease these days to bump the immunity levels up. So the parvo results are definative.

I believe that with puppies the 1 year booster is still recommended as protocol, but that is enough. This is because the mother's antibodies passed on to the puppies (pre-birth and through milk) can interfere with the vaccination sero-conversion, so full immunity may not be conferred until then. Or you could titre test after the 16 week shot to check that it has worked.

[Erny]

These do not include the hepatitis testing, as titre results for parvo are deemed indicative of immunity for hep as well. Low distemper titre results are usually ignored, as there is not enough exposure to the disease these days to bump the immunity levels up. So the parvo results are definative.

That is as I was informed as well :).

[bianca.a]

Thank you so much for all your help, I really do appreciate it :)

I emailed my vet today so will wait and see what he has to say but I think I will titre test in a couple of weeks (need to do Molly as well) and take it from there.

Thank you Jumabaar, I will keep your vet in mind. It's not so much the expense (although that will sting a bit) it's just wanting Cooper to be healthy. Also thanks to Kiwikitten, that is good to know.

German-shep, his bowel motions seem much, much better thank you! I didn't take him to weigh last week (after vac) as I didn't want to risk being at the vet while sick so hopefully this week!

Erny, thank you so much for taking the time to explain in detail. I have a better understanding now :)

Secretkai, thank you :)

[Sandra777]

He really does need a repeat to be protected for the canine cough component but that should be enough for the C3. Another option is to try a different brand of vaccine.

there is no need to do kennel cough unless you are going to be boarding the dog.

Not quite true - my dogs have caught KC at a dog show so they're not just "at risk" in a boarding situation - but I agree if you mean the only reason to do it would be to satisfy the requirements of boarding kennels.

I have never vaccinated a dog for kennel cough and only had the one incident of it. No harm done, but for an elderly or chronically ill dog, perhaps another story.

[Erny]

I have never vaccinated a dog for kennel cough and only had the one incident of it. No harm done, but for an elderly or chronically ill dog, perhaps another story.

Sorry to contradict you on this, and this is just a personal opinion, but I think there is even MORE reason to NOT vaccinate (at all - CCough inclusive) with an elderly or chronically ill dog. Remember that the affect of vaccines is that it stresses the immune system. An old dog or an ill dog doesn't need that.

[Red Fox]

Erny:

Although I'm pleased that one year on, my boy's titre showed positive for sufficient antibodies proving sero-conversion, from what I have read and understand, if it showed nothing, that does not mean that sero-conversion has not taken place. It is possible that sero-conversion had taken place but that the antibody "make-up" had receded to "cell memory" - not floating around the body so to speak, but the body ready and able to rev them up and get them out there should exposure to the disease/s occur.

This is the confusing part. How do you decide when or whether to re-vaccinate the dog if the titer results come back insufficient 12 months or 3 years down the track?

Your question is also what I'm confused about

This is why it is best if the Titre is done at about 2 weeks after vaccination. Because during that time, bloods would still show the antibodies created in response to the vaccine introduced disease/s. This means sero-conversion has occurred - the body has developed a recognition of the diseases. If no anti-bodies were present at that time, I'd be concerned sero-conversion had not occurred (ie the body did not respond to the vaccine and that my dog's body was not as properly prepared to send anti-bodies to the rescue should contact with the disease/s occur).

If you Titre test beyond two weeks, perhaps the test will show negative, but that is not proof that sero-conversion has not taken place. It's always pleasing when the titre shows anti-bodies, but that doesn't necessarily mean the anti-bodies are present just because of the vaccine - it might be that the dog has been exposed to the diseases, so the anti-bodies have revved into action as a means to fighting off the diseases before they take hold.

I trust what I have read (Dr Jean Dodds articles are very helpful, along with posts by forum members Staranais and Rappie [Vets], amongst others) and been advised and that if my dog was exposed to any of the said diseases, antibodies to the diseases would be readily re-created and released into the blood stream to attack the diseases.

I think that if I lived in an area where the diseases were rampant, perhaps I might re-vaccinate if the titre showed no antibodies (which would indicate my dog had not been exposed to the diseases in more recent times and consequently exist in cell-memory, not immediately in the blood stream) but that's something I would and will decide when and if the time comes (which I hope it doesn't).

But when and if I need to make that decision, I will also take into account the current health status of my dog and determine the greater risk chance : (a) that my dog's system will suffer as a result of the vaccine chemicals being introduced to his body or (b) that my dog will pick up one of the 3 core diseases. I am not as concerned about canine cough - not to suggest the condition should be disregarded if it is contracted.

I'm not a Vet but this is how I understand it.

Thank you for the info Erny. It would be much easier if vets were all on the same page regarding this. The majority (mine included) seem to recommend yearly titers and revacc if antibody levels are 'too low' (not non-existent). But re-vaccinating may well be unnecessary, even if the dog is showing low levels?

[Jumabaar]

Erny:

Although I'm pleased that one year on, my boy's titre showed positive for sufficient antibodies proving sero-conversion, from what I have read and understand, if it showed nothing, that does not mean that sero-conversion has not taken place. It is possible that sero-conversion had taken place but that the antibody "make-up" had receded to "cell memory" - not floating around the body so to speak, but the body ready and able to rev them up and get them out there should exposure to the disease/s occur.

This is the confusing part. How do you decide when or whether to re-vaccinate the dog if the titer results come back insufficient 12 months or 3 years down the track?

Your question is also what I'm confused about

This is why it is best if the Titre is done at about 2 weeks after vaccination. Because during that time, bloods would still show the antibodies created in response to the vaccine introduced disease/s. This means sero-conversion has occurred - the body has developed a recognition of the diseases. If no anti-bodies were present at that time, I'd be concerned sero-conversion had not occurred (ie the body did not respond to the vaccine and that my dog's body was not as properly prepared to send anti-bodies to the rescue should contact with the disease/s occur).

If you Titre test beyond two weeks, perhaps the test will show negative, but that is not proof that sero-conversion has not taken place. It's always pleasing when the titre shows anti-bodies, but that doesn't necessarily mean the anti-bodies are present just because of the vaccine - it might be that the dog has been exposed to the diseases, so the anti-bodies have revved into action as a means to fighting off the diseases before they take hold.

I trust what I have read (Dr Jean Dodds articles are very helpful, along with posts by forum members Staranais and Rappie [Vets], amongst others) and been advised and that if my dog was exposed to any of the said diseases, antibodies to the diseases would be readily re-created and released into the blood stream to attack the diseases.

I think that if I lived in an area where the diseases were rampant, perhaps I might re-vaccinate if the titre showed no antibodies (which would indicate my dog had not been exposed to the diseases in more recent times and consequently exist in cell-memory, not immediately in the blood stream) but that's something I would and will decide when and if the time comes (which I hope it doesn't).

But when and if I need to make that decision, I will also take into account the current health status of my dog and determine the greater risk chance : (a) that my dog's system will suffer as a result of the vaccine chemicals being introduced to his body or (b) that my dog will pick up one of the 3 core diseases. I am not as concerned about canine cough - not to suggest the condition should be disregarded if it is contracted.

I'm not a Vet but this is how I understand it.

Thank you for the info Erny. It would be much easier if vets were all on the same page regarding this. The majority (mine included) seem to recommend yearly titers and revacc if antibody levels are 'too low' (not non-existent). But re-vaccinating may well be unnecessary, even if the dog is showing low levels?

The only way to show that a dog has immunity if the levels drop is to challenge them with the disease to see how their memory cells react. I have read articles where they indicate that dogs with a negative titre have been challenge tested with the disease and have shown they don't have immunity to the dz. What I can't work out if these dogs are ones that have were checked to ensure seroconverted and have since lost their immunity or if they are dogs that failed to seroconvert in the first place? I have looked around but don't have access to the university library for another month to be able to see recent articles to answer my own question!! Happy to have it answered by others though.

This is why vets err on the safe side and revaccinate if titre levels are low. This is what is advised in these guidelines http://www.aahanet.org/publicdocuments/vaccineguidelines06revised.pdf on page 13.

I need titres to allow my dogs to do sports so its not something I have really thought about and they have all come back with high levels. I think if they came back low I would have a good long talk with my vet because they are regularly in challenging environments (I expect them to be in contact with the diseases) so would want to explore it further before making a decision one way or another.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Jumabaar

[kiwikitten]

I choose not to vaccinate for KC - the vaccination only protects against 2 strains of KC, and there are actually about a hundred different types of viruses that can cause it. Its like the flu, there is always a new variant each year. Its also a mild disease that is easily treated (provided the dog is otherwise healthy). The vaccination also only lasts for 6 months, not a year (another thing that vets dont normally tell you) so half the time your dog is unprotected anyway (which is why vaccinated dogs still catch it).

I think the recommended titre test period is every 3 years from a positive titre, that way if it comes back negative later, you can vaccinate. So your dog is essentially still on a 3 year protocol.

And as for the heartworm vaccination, that stuff was recalled by the FDA in America and Canada years ago. Its only been put back on the market recently under a monitored trial, and is only to be given to dogs that cannot use another form of heartworm prevention medication (pill or spot on).