dasha Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Kavik, I am not saying to not tug with him anymore just maybe not obsess with it. If I had a dog that was showing lack of determination on a tug/toy, I personally wouldn't do any "outs" with him. I would let him get the toy, "own" the toy, engage in a tug game (very short and intense) and has he pulls back to tug let him have it and make a big deal of it and let him have it. Even if he hardly put any effort into it, let him take it. Clap and cheer, make a game of trying to catch him for it, then he gets to keep it. I would not do any outs on a tug toy with him for ages. Make him keen to hold possession of it. May take months. Once he wins it, if he wants to sit and chew it for a min, let him. Then when you want it back, make a game of creeping up on the toy, while he is laying there, and when your hand gets close, if he goes to hold it again, move your hand back so he won it again, repeat a few times. When you actually get it, make a big deal of it, wave it in front of him, tease him with it, make him want it, then hide it in your pocket, while he is watching. With some of mine, if they are trying really hard to get it while I tease them.... and I mean really badly, like jumping madly into me, or pushing themselves harder to get it, I will let them get it. Then repeat the whole possession thing again. Make it a big deal. It is a very high energy game for both you and the dog. So you need to put a big effort in as well to be as animated as possible. Laugh, squeal, clap etc. Its all in. If you don't do that at the start, it won't be a fun game for the dog. Keep the controlled outs for retrieve items if thats what you do with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) My problem is that he LIKES possessing the toy more than bringing it back for another game. I do like how Michael Ellis explains it - the game is about you (dog) and me, the toy is just what we are using to play at the moment. I had been making it too much about him possessing/wanting the toy and not enough about the interaction between the two of us. Probably because I did a lot of frustration work with him to build drive when he was little. When I get him to out all I am doing is making the toy dead. We do have lots of fun when we tug, and put in plenty of effort :D ETA what I did before was similar to what you describe dasha and I think why I am having problems as he thinks I will take the toy away - can see me as more competition than cooperation. Edited January 21, 2012 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Well when you get it from him, part of the game is giving it back. Like I said, some dogs love tug, some love fetch, some love parading it. Each is different. Its like some kids like monkey bars, some like riding the bike, some like WII and some like to play computer things. Maybe that is just the kind of dog he is. He is a Kelpie. They are bred to be an independent work dog. Some lines just just don't have that built in desire to interact WITH someone. They work FOR someone. They are asked to do a job, they go do it themselves. They are part of a team that works independently of the other team member. You may very well go and get another Kelpie and have the same problems. You really need to get lines that have proven dogs that are TEAM players ie, want to be with you and interact with you. Get one from a stud where other sport people have got them from that have the desires you want. Maybe you could post a link to dog that is playing tug/getting tug reward that is what you are looking to achieve with your dog and then a link of what your currently at with your dog so that readers can get an idea of what you goal is and be able to help you get there. An address is no good without a map. And a map is no good without a destination. DId you know that when lost, people generally go around in circles looking for their way out. Same in dog training IMO Edited January 21, 2012 by dasha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 1327109418[/url]' post='5688329']An address is no good without a map. And a map is no good without a destination. DId you know that when lost, people generally go around in circles looking for their way out. Same in dog training IMO I like this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 My Kelpie boy is very similar in his tug play style. Like you Kavik, I want a retrieve of the thrown toy for agility training and whilst Zac loves to play tuggy he is less thrilled about retrieving it for another go. I'm thinking this is a bit of a Kelpie thing as they are not (generally) natural retrievers. He is very foody and it would be dead easy to succumb to his food drive but I want more!!! :D Solution (for me) was to shape a retrieve just like a dumbell but leaving out the formality and the give part....as soon as he brings it back we engage in another game of tuggy. If I want him to give I usually just put my hand on the side of his muzzle and he will give it up or I can do the food exchange. In the shaped retrieve the article doesn't get thrown until the end stage...it starts off pretty much at your feet and is shaped from there. As for enthusiasm I don't know any dog that has a well shaped retrieve who doesn't become extremely enthusiastic for his retrieve article. Just another way of thinking about the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 I really do like Michael Ellis's idea of using the play to build the retrieve. I would rather not use food in teaching the retrieve of the tug, I think that would cause the sorts of issues Nekhbet was talking about when trying to combine food and tugging. When mucking around with Zoe's tug (she is 12) I do use food, but you can tell that while she enjoys tug (well, for an old dog who has never been taught to tug before. I also have no problem with her retrieve, though she sometimes drops it) she is really in it for the food at the end. Kaos is in it for the toy and tugging and I would like to keep it that way. While I don't really plan on using tug like TID, probably more like SG does, I do like Michael's ideas on playing tug and how to get the retrieve and out. I don't really expect to get the level Michhael has, he has a Malinois, wired differently to a Kelpie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Initial interest and tug good, out and reengage good, then out and I showed him the toy, talked to him revving him and threw it. He went out keen but when he got there he just put his paws on it, like a prey pounce, instead of picking it up. It wasn't until I started reeling it back in that he grabbed it. Reeled it in, had a good play. Did this a few more times (and out/reengage) with similar results each time. Interesting. You've changed the routine and the dog is confused - normal and fine! Keep going you'll find he'll get faster at grabbing the toy :) When I get him to out all I am doing is making the toy dead. Dead as in not moving? The toy shouldnt lose it's value, or should I say 'potential'. When the dog outs, it should mean that relinquishing hold of the toy signals that super fun awesome game starts again when mum says so, not an 'end of game' per say. Hence you get the dog pushing the toy into you or like one of mine, throws things at you Do you see how the out too can make a difference in how the dog flows with prey rewards? End of game encourages them to slide down, whereas a more 'give it to me and we restart' keeps the prey high and interest/focus strong :) Saying that too remember Kelpies were not really bred to latch onto things and hold them (fail sheepdog lol) whereas the guarding breeds were. Might just take a little more time because it could also be something in the back of the dogs head holding it back ... that little voice that say's nooooooooooooooooooooo! but you eventually overcome it when the dog realises how super duper it is :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Dead as in not moving, and when he lets go we start the game again. He seems to get that bit fine :D dasha - yes I am doing lots of research into where to get the next dog to try and find the attributes I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 get a Malinois *L* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 A Malinois is on my one day list Not sure I'd be able to do justice to one yet though. I want to have a dog that I have taught to tug and to know how to use it effectively as a reward first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 it's OK Kavik a malinois will make YOU work :laugh: As long as you dont mind being munched and yanked around you'll be right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 :laugh: A bit more experience probably wouldn't go astray before I jump into that kind of intensity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Some lines just just don't have that built in desire to interact WITH someone. They work FOR someone. I want the T Shirt :laugh: So true. Kavik, I understand where you are coming from - I worship at the temple of Susan Garrett too and while I agree with her views and want my dogs to tug for the same reasons as you it is easy to obsess over it at times and lose sight of the big picture. As a generalisation, kelpies do not tug and retrieve as naturally as a lot of BC's do - having now trained both the BC has actually helped me understand my kelpies a lot better in the way that they learn and work. My older kelpie will now happily tug when asked to do so, plus he retrieves and will 'swap' back and forward between food and toys for rewards. However he is nine and it's only been the last 12 months or so that he has done this and through a lot of hard work. In the meantime he has had no trouble working for food rewards at agility and recently completed his ADM3 title. Although that's nothing really special, in a 'career' that's been marked by very long stretches of time off due to injury, he has been relatively successful in the times that he has been able to compete. One thing that helped my with his retrieve was to let him have a 'victory lap' with the toy first. This was the advice of a US trainer that I had a private lesson with a few years back and I have no idea why it works but it does. So I throw the toy, let him run around and do a few laps with it, then recall him. After that he brings it back straight away on subsequent turns. I know this could be considered letting him shape me, but you know what , it works and I am happy to accept it with him. (Wouldn't be happy if the BC did it though, LOL) A couple of other things that helped me were to stop thinking that it was actual tugging behaviour that I wanted, but to want interaction with a toy instead - not the same thing. He has always been happy to pounce on a toy but never liked the actual tugging part. Once I started using the play in agility warm ups the tugging just gradually started to happen. I never ask for a release from either of my kelpies when tugging, just reach down and remove the toy myself and then offer it again so the game can keep moving quickly. Having good training mechanics and quick transitions between repetitions also seems to be very important with kelpies. Both my kelpies are 'hit and miss' with the degree of tugging they are comfortable with at a trial. I try to gauge the situation when I first get them out and choose my rewards from there. Both are always happy to tug after a run, but sometimes not before and although I would prefer they did I can live with it - I have had some fast and focussed runs without a tug in sight at times too. I will also be doing things differently when I choose my next kelpie at some stage but I think I 'get' them a lot more now in regard to agility training than I did before and I certainly haven't lowered my expectations, just adjusted them to a better fit. Good luck and I look forward to hearing how your training goes. Edited January 21, 2012 by kelpiechick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I agree with dasha and kc despite having a dog a fair bit different from the kelpies ;) I have been letting my dog tell me how he likes to play tug, when to use it and when to throw food (with the latter he is chasing food so a good dose of prey drive in there I suspect). Anyway last night he took the tug as a reward for flying through 12 weavers. Repeatedly. I nearly fainted :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I'll echo the above, and say that to a large extent I have learnt to work with what my dogs see as a reward. Yes they both play tug 95% of the time but there are times where other rewards are more powerful. Darcy plays tug hard - she's very strong. Zee prefers to chase her tug toy than put so much effort into tugging. Just because they aren't tugging with me, doesn't mean they aren't interacting with me. Both love squeaky toys but interact with me in totally different ways. Darcy brings it straight back to me and loves to run between my knees, stand there for a moment of time while I scrub her lower back and bum with my hands and then we start the game again. Zee loves to stand just out of half reach and squeak it half a dozen times before she hands it over. It's just the way she plays the game. Trade her for food and she'll hand it over immediately sans the squeak-fest. Her absolute favourite toy is a half flat soccer ball, not always easy to manage but she loves it so that's what we use. Obviously squeaky toys are out at trials - so I use a tuggy jackpot toy for rewarding both. Darcy will readily tug before a run but loves to head back to camp with her carrying her jackpot toy in her mouth as her reward - either I give it to her as we finish if there is suitable space, or she carts it back to camp and she gets it when we're back. Zee wants her jackpot the moment she leaves the ring, she picks it up just long enough to throw it at me so I'll open it for her. FWIW Both of mine are 1/2 kelpie. Darce is 1/2 Lab, Zee 1/2 BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Some lines just just don't have that built in desire to interact WITH someone. They work FOR someone. I want the T Shirt :laugh: So true. Kavik, I understand where you are coming from - I worship at the temple of Susan Garrett too and while I agree with her views and want my dogs to tug for the same reasons as you it is easy to obsess over it at times and lose sight of the big picture. As a generalisation, kelpies do not tug and retrieve as naturally as a lot of BC's do - having now trained both the BC has actually helped me understand my kelpies a lot better in the way that they learn and work. My older kelpie will now happily tug when asked to do so, plus he retrieves and will 'swap' back and forward between food and toys for rewards. However he is nine and it's only been the last 12 months or so that he has done this and through a lot of hard work. In the meantime he has had no trouble working for food rewards at agility and recently completed his ADM3 title. Although that's nothing really special, in a 'career' that's been marked by very long stretches of time off due to injury, he has been relatively successful in the times that he has been able to compete. One thing that helped my with his retrieve was to let him have a 'victory lap' with the toy first. This was the advice of a US trainer that I had a private lesson with a few years back and I have no idea why it works but it does. So I throw the toy, let him run around and do a few laps with it, then recall him. After that he brings it back straight away on subsequent turns. I know this could be considered letting him shape me, but you know what , it works and I am happy to accept it with him. (Wouldn't be happy if the BC did it though, LOL) A couple of other things that helped me were to stop thinking that it was actual tugging behaviour that I wanted, but to want interaction with a toy instead - not the same thing. He has always been happy to pounce on a toy but never liked the actual tugging part. Once I started using the play in agility warm ups the tugging just gradually started to happen. I never ask for a release from either of my kelpies when tugging, just reach down and remove the toy myself and then offer it again so the game can keep moving quickly. Having good training mechanics and quick transitions between repetitions also seems to be very important with kelpies. Both my kelpies are 'hit and miss' with the degree of tugging they are comfortable with at a trial. I try to gauge the situation when I first get them out and choose my rewards from there. Both are always happy to tug after a run, but sometimes not before and although I would prefer they did I can live with it - I have had some fast and focussed runs without a tug in sight at times too. I will also be doing things differently when I choose my next kelpie at some stage but I think I 'get' them a lot more now in regard to agility training than I did before and I certainly haven't lowered my expectations, just adjusted them to a better fit. Good luck and I look forward to hearing how your training goes. ADM3 is a great achievement! sounds like you have done a great job and it does give me hope that we may get there! I am learning a lot with Kaos and even if I end up with similar problems in the next dog with tugging, at least I would have had some practice with Kaos so hopefully can iron them out more quickly. One of the things I have definitely taken away from susan Garrett is that tugging struggles happen with many dogs and even with famous trainers, even she has had moments with her dogs. The important thing is to work through it. And to break distractions down into smaller increments in an area you can control. It certainly makes me feel better when we encounter a hiccup. All the tug instruction DVDs I have watched are based around protection type dogs and I always have to remember that a Kelpie isn't going to work the same way. Sometimes does make Nekhbet's suggestion very tempting though :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) it does give me hope that we may get there! I am learning a lot with Kaos and even if I end up with similar problems in the next dog with tugging, at least I would have had some practice with Kaos so hopefully can iron them out more quickly. One of the things I have definitely taken away from susan Garrett is that tugging struggles happen with many dogs and even with famous trainers, even she has had moments with her dogs. The important thing is to work through it. And to break distractions down into smaller increments in an area you can control. It certainly makes me feel better when we encounter a hiccup. You will get there ! But it's easy to get so obsessed on wanting the tugging behaviour that it can have a negative impact on your training - been there, done that LOL. And 'working through it', although ideally what you want to do, can be something that you need to proceed with caution with kelpies as you can often get 'stuff you, don't want to play any more, taking my bat and ball and going home' :laugh: Just keep working on it AWAY from an agility context, remember that it can be a very long process to get the tugging behaviour that you want, and enjoy the ride along the way.... even if you have to use other rewards for a bit. Remember a reward is what the dog wants not necessarily what you want it to want. Personally I think things like shaping, trick training, playing lots of games where you really work on creating a dog that wants to work with you are a lot more valuable to your agility training than tugging - tugging is just the icing on the cake. There was a good article in CR a while back titled something like 'tug or not to tug' from memory which outlined both sides of the equation and raised some interesting points. If you subscribe maybe go back through some older issues and see if you can find it. And for the record, my BC tugs like a dream with anything, any time, anywhere ..... but we have a whole lot of other things that need work that I never had to worry about with my kelpies - so is just as much work but in different ways. It's all too easy to see results people get in the ring and think that they came by it 'easily' when no one else sees the struggles and hard work that you put in along the way. I have a new found respect for people who run super fast dogs, believe me ! Don't get discouraged, I know you are doing a good job, just focus on working WITH him (not the same as letting him walk all over you) and let that shape your training. Edited January 21, 2012 by kelpiechick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Yes I am definitely working on tugging away from agility - keeping it a totally separate exercise. I am using other rewards at agility until we get tugging going. I am happy with the progress we are making - much better now than it was before. Keeping it fun and enjoying it. Yep had take bat and ball and going home moments before :laugh: more careful now with stuff like that. I am really enjoying the Recallers course - lots of fun games to get the dog wanting to play and work with you and some are great for keeping training light and fun (so we don't get too serious!). Had a blast with them this morning and go some good tugging too! Used the udder tug one session and a soft leather tug the next. Certainly super fast dogs would present different challenges. Last year was doing a jumping grid and bar knocking topic came up - Kaos is very good with bars and works to keep them up. I was asked how I trained it - I didn't, that is just how he is, he doesn't like to touch them. People with bar knocking problems looked a bit envious lol. Edited January 21, 2012 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Normally I choose to do my tugging at times of the day I know he is excited and most likely to tug well (in the morning - also cooler then). Today did a tug session in the morning and then decided to see how we would go in the middle of the day when he had been resting in a crate for a while. To see how we would go cold turkey from the crate to tugging. I thought this would be closer to what it would be like at training or a trial. He tugged well came out of the crate, looking at me, and tugged straight away, happily and strong. He is still not all that sure what to make of NEkhbet's advice :laugh: once he grabbed it from the ground but other times still just pinned it in a play bow/pounce position until I reeled it in. Using a soft leather tug which he seems to like to tug on and doesn't seem to want to chew on so much so a winner there too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Buy Here So far we have 3 types - Udder Tugger with Soft Handle $12 including postage Udder Tugger with Rubber Handle $13 including postage Udder Tugger $10 including postage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now